Duds and studs, official lions

[Sunshinepacker]

There was one play where Perry really popped to me with a great rush— best individual edge rush I’ve seen this season. Textbook. And the. He disappeared.

I’m guessing he’s playing through something... as usual.

He's playing through lack of free agency. He'll play to his potential in his next contract year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Trying to remember the last Packer player that started a game because he beat out the guy(s) ahead of him on the depth chart? Seems like the only way a guy gets a starting job in Green Bay is if the guy(s) ahead of him are either not resigned, traded or injured. But who knows, maybe that is normal in the NFL?

 

[Dantés]

He's playing through lack of free agency. He'll play to his potential in his next contract year.

We may eventually look back and see that this is true. But I'm not there yet. The guy is perpetually dinged up though.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Trying to remember the last Packer player that started a game because he beat out the guy(s) ahead of him on the depth chart? Seems like the only way a guy gets a starting job in Green Bay is if the guy(s) ahead of him are either not resigned, traded or injured. But who knows, maybe that is normal in the NFL?

Interesing question.

Last season, Josh Jones got bumped out of the hybrid ILB spot, replaced by Burnett, with Brice taking Burnett's spot at safety.

But yes, it's not common for a reason. How does a guy "beat out" another guy once the season starts? There are only about a dozen padded practices all season and even then the hitting is kept to a minimum. Scout team? Meh. Playing as an injury replacement in money games is an opportunity to prove up.

The coaching focus each week is in preparing for the next opponent. The bye week is an opportunity to pause an evaluate. Mostly a guy has to be causing enough problems to gamble on an unproven guy.

What you will see is rotational players get more or fewer snaps.

I'm guessing you have a switheroo in mind?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Interesing question.

Last season, Josh Jones got bumped out of the hybrid ILB spot, replaced by Burnett, with Brice taking Burnett's spot at safety.

But yes, it's not common for a reason. How does a guy "beat out" another guy once the season starts? There are only about a dozen padded practices all season and even then the hitting is kept to a minimum. Scout team? Meh. Playing as an injury replacement in money games is an opportunity to prove up.

The coaching focus each week is in preparing for the next opponent. The bye week is an opportunity to pause an evaluate. Mostly a guy has to be causing enough problems to gamble on an unproven guy.

What you will see is rotational players get more or fewer snaps.

I'm guessing you have a switheroo in mind?

Switcheroo? Yes, I'm asking when has a guy gotten some playing time and been so impressive, he moves up the depth chart and starts the following week. There have been chances at it at many positions. Jones being replaced by Burnett in the hybrid spot is a veteran taking an ineffective rookie out, so not really what I was looking for.

Even from year to year, seems like once a starter, you are locked in until you are not resigned, traded or injured. Maybe this year we will see Jackson or Alexander change that.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Studs:

Josh Jackson

Duds

Cory Linsley allowing sacks

Jackson was responsible for Golloday's 60-yard reception. Linsley allowed only a single pressure.

Yeah, and it seems to have been worse this year than in years past. Three out of five games this year they just came out looking flat. One could argue that if it weren't for a near-miracle comeback against the Bears and the Vikings kicker we'd be 1-4 right now.

If not for a ridiculous penalty against the Vikings the Packers would be 3-2.

Dud dud dud... the coordinators and coaches both offense and defense, mostly defense.

The defense played pretty well vs. the Lions.

Allison might want to start worrying a little. MVS looking like he could be better than him.

Allison has been productive this season, I guess his spot on the depth chart is safe for now.

Technically Allison is tied for first in the league for most drops. It’s early though.

Michael Crabtree is leading the league in drops with eight. Allison has a total of three.

This Dline is probably one of the worst I've ever seen. No one can get any pressure.

The defensive line has been pretty good this season, the edge rushers on the other hand need improvement.

How did Aaron Jones only get 7 carrries today? IMO with this current crop of pass catchers we need to run the ball 40% of the time. It's inexcusable that you have a guy with 5.5 ypc and only 7 carries. Heck even the second best option had 4.5 ypc.

Do you realize the Packers were down by 24 at halftime???

You guys hit the HaHa right on the head. His first couple of years, I really was optimistic about the guy. In 2015 it looked as though he was really coming together, and then - ??? Where'd he go? He didn't seem to make any improvement at all in 16, and last year he actually seemed to look more like a rookie again. This year? So far, he just looks lost out there.

This is his 5th season. By this point in his career, he should be in his prime, using his years of experience to maximize his still-peak physical skills - for instance, when he sees the slot receiver do "x", the next thing that's going to happen is "y", and he needs to immediately do "z" to counter that... and so on. But instead, he looks as though he hasn't learned a damned thing... it's like the more he learns about all the different nuances that can unfold on every given snap, the more completely bewildered he gets about all the complexities.

Give him credit - if the ball comes to him, he'll make a play on it, but if he has to go find it he doesn't know where to begin. Very disappointing for a 5th-year 1st-round draft pick.

Most Packers fans are way too harsh when evaluating Clinton-Dix. There's no doubt he had a bad game vs. the Lions but overall he has had a pretty good season so far. He has to stop vacating his spot to possibly make a big play in the red zone though.

My biggest complaint about MM is he just takes forever (or never) to make adjustments. The offense has looked in a funk the entire year except when they go into the no-huddle offense. It is like the offense then starts to focus and perform this year. How about playing an entire game as a no-huddle offense and see what happens?

The Packers have used a no-huddle offense on a higher percentage than the league average. It's impossible to for most of a game though.

The taunting was technically called by the book, but you hardly see that flag thrown anymore.

While I agree with your statement the rule is terrible in my opinion.

Matthews, Fackrell,Gilbert and Perry- zero combined sacks and pressures. And Perry is hurt again.

While definitely not good enough the outside linebackers combined to hurry Stafford five times.

They could do a post June 1 cut next year. Would mean a big cap hit of roughly $7M in 2020 of $7M and 3M in 2019, but right now.. Perry seems pretty useless out there.

I tried reading on his contract details and don't really understand it. It says that after 2018 we aren't really on the hook for much. But dead cap space is still shows over 14mil for 2019.

Either way Sometimes you need to admit you made a bad deal and move on. This guy can't stay healthy and basically disappears for games.

The Packers would save $3.6 million of cap space by releasing Perry before the start of free agency next year. The move would result in $11.1 million of dead money counting against the cap though.

 

[Jerellh528]

Michael Crabtree is leading the league in drops with eight. Allison has a total of three.

Well now he does. Crabtree just dropped 3 in his last game and Allison missed a game, but at the time Allison was tied for first, packers lead the league in drops also.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Well now he does. Crabtree just dropped 3 in his last game and Allison missed a game, but at the time Allison was tied for first, packers lead the league in drops also.

Crabtree still entered Sunday's game with two drops more than Allison.

Actually four teams (BAL, CLE, JAX and PHI) have more drops than the Packers.

 

[easyk83]

Do you realize the Packers were down by 24 at halftime???

Didn't our passing game contribute to 10 of those points?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Didn't our passing game contribute to 10 of those points?

True, that's not the point though but that it's impossible to have a balanced offense in the second half being down by 24.

 

[Dantés]

Do you realize the Packers were down by 24 at halftime???

Most Packers fans are way too harsh when evaluating Clinton-Dix. There's no doubt he had a bad game vs. the Lions but overall he has had a pretty good season so far. He has to stop vacating his spot to possibly make a big play in the red zone though.

While definitely not good enough the outside linebackers combined to hurry Stafford five times.

The Packers would save $3.6 million of cap space by releasing Perry before the start of free agency next year. The move would result in $11.1 million of dead money counting against the cap though.

I definitely get why Jones didn't see the field much, being down by 24-- MM doesn't like him in passing situations. And to a certain extent, you have to defer to a coach on things like that. But I haven't seen anything on the field over the last few games to suggest that Jones isn't an asset on passing downs. His pass pro has been solid and he's more dangerous than the other backs with the ball in his hands. So while I understand MM's reason for not using Jones more, I don't understand the reasoning behind his reason, if that makes sense.

Agree on HHCD. He isn't a very physical safety, but he has good ball skills. Plays in which he fails to make the big hit (or gets crushed by Golladay) are going to really stick in fans' collective minds. But he's a plus cover safety, and it goes beyond just easy interceptions. If we're realistic about where the game is in 2018, he's more valuable than a big hitting run defender and tone setter. I'm not sold that he returns in 2019-- it will depend heavily on how the staff assesses his full body of work in the new defense. But it's far from a foregone conclusion that he walks, as some have suggested.

Perry is baffling to me this season. I saw a couple really nice plays out of him yesterday, and then he just disappears for stretches. I am not convinced that he's completely right. I'm going to be interested to see what he looks like after the bye. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a strong second half of the season. But even if this is who he is, cutting him makes no sense until 2020 at the earliest (and ideally, 2021). Even if he's merely a guy who can help in rotation, that's worth more to the Packers than cutting him and suffering a net loss of 8M in space. I think sometimes fans want under-performing players cut out of spite without giving enough consideration to what makes the most sense for the team.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I guarantee that if Cosby comes out next week and kicks four fifty yard field goals, Or they win forty to three... all you’ll see on here are comments of praise and fans quietly deleting all their negative comments. It’s the nature of being a fan and sports entertainment.

Welcome to the forum, you must be new? If the Packers win 40-3, there will still be some who will post that they should have won 80-3.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Hmm. Thanks for the heads up.

But it is a nice thought to have a game where the Packers are firing on all cylinders. I honestly can't remember the last game where they were doing that. It hasn't been this year for sure and one would probably have to go all the way back to 2016 to find that last happening.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

True, that's not the point though but that it's impossible to have a balanced offense in the second half being down by 24.

No it's not. The Lions run defense was allowing over 5 yards per carry. With 30 minutes left in the game there is no reason to abandon the run especially when the passing game has looked like junk during the first half.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Welcome to the forum, you must be new? If the Packers win 40-3, there will still be some who will post that they should have won 80-3.

Only if they were playing the Bills....

 

[Starr To Dowler]

But it is a nice thought to have a game where the Packers are firing on all cylinders. I honestly can't remember the last game where they were doing that. It hasn't been this year for sure and one would probably have to go all the way back to 2016 to find that last happening.

Jeez... hate to be the Negative Nancy, but honestly? I'm awfully hard-pressed to remember a game in 2016 where I thought they were hitting every note. I guess the Seattle game and the Giants, maybe?

And then, maybe I'm just being too damned ******* them and need to lighten up a bit. Yeah, I guess they legitimately looked like Madden Champs both those weeks. Scared a lot of teams with those games.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Switcheroo? Yes, I'm asking when has a guy gotten some playing time and been so impressive, he moves up the depth chart and starts the following week. There have been chances at it at many positions. Jones being replaced by Burnett in the hybrid spot is a veteran taking an ineffective rookie out, so not really what I was looking for.

Even from year to year, seems like once a starter, you are locked in until you are not resigned, traded or injured. Maybe this year we will see Jackson or Alexander change that.

Another possible example is Byron Bell getting the start in Week 5, taking all snaps at RG. While McCray was on the injury report he was active. We'll see where that goes.

The OLB situation is interesting as well. Perry was questionable in week 1 with an ankle injury. Since then he has not appeared on the game day injury report. His snap counts have been, in order, 53%, 55%, 62%, 57% and 35 snaps in week 5 (57% on an estimated 62 plays).

Gilbert's snap counts are 53%, 47%, 39%, 43% and 31 snaps in week 5 (50% on an estimated 62 plays).

Perry is high priced and expected to be a 3-down player, say a 70+% snap count. Yet despite being off the injury report after week 1, his snap count has not gone up appreciably while Gilbert has continued to get a significant number of snaps at Perry's expense. So, jumping up on the depth chart can be a black and white way of thinking about it when situationally there are shades of gray.

CB is an interesting situation if all of the top 5 are healthy at the same time. The snap counts during week 1 were:

Williams 100%
King 100%
Alexander 70%
Jackson 66%

That indicates Pettine played 4-corner dime on 36% of the snaps against a Bears team better know for their run game than Trubisky as a threat, compounded by the Bears holding a 17-0 halftime lead where it would be expected they would want to run and control the clock in the second half. This may indicate a preference for a dime-heavy approach when all hands are on deck though Burks' absence may have been a factor. We won't have a better picture unless and until all 4 are healthy at the same time.

In any case, this is an instance of where who starts is not necessarily an indication of how much the other guys play. Those Alexander/Jackson snaps are pretty significant for their first NFL games. And it should be noted that Williams did not play on the perimeter for all snaps, taking some in the slot, indicating a preference to play matchups. King stays fixed at LCB when he plays. That may be a function of simplification or the fact he's probably the best run defender of the bunch on the side where opponents best run blockers typically reside, or a little of both.

Now Breeland is thrown into the mix. The fact he went unsigned that long and then signed this modest contract with the Packers raises questions. For the time being, that looks like a depth move, especially given the injury situation at the time he was signed and which has continued.

I don't see that changing but it seems King has yet to take a healthy NFL snap so that projection many not be tested. In any event, the King injuries get the rookies more snaps and and opportunity to make their case.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

No it's not. The Lions run defense was allowing over 5 yards per carry. With 30 minutes left in the game there is no reason to abandon the run especially when the passing game has looked like junk during the first half.

I've seen this notion tossed around "the Packers need to stick to the run game, it was averaging "X yards/carry". On the surface that seems to make a lot of sense, but the Packers are not a running team, that was made very evident last year when Hundley took over. Yes, the Packers can pick up some yards occasionally on the ground, but with AR at QB, they are a pass first offense and that is why the defenses they face give up some occasional chunks on the ground.

Packers just need to get better in their passing game, both AR and the receivers. Keep mixing in the run on occasion, but when down 24-0 at halftime, I don't see scoring enough points (32 in this case) while having enough time on the clock to do it, by suddenly switching to a run game.

 

[Starr To Dowler]

Another possible example is Byron Bell getting the start in Week 5, taking all snaps at RG. While McCray was on the injury report he was active. We'll see where that goes.

The OLB situation is interesting as well. Perry was questionable in week 1 with an ankle injury. Since then he has not appeared on the game day injury report. His snap counts have been, in order, 53%, 55%, 62%, 57% and 35 snaps in week 5 (57% on an estimated 62 plays).

Gilbert's snap counts are 53%, 47%, 39%, 43% and 31 snaps in week 5 (50% on an estimated 62 plays).

Perry is high priced and expected to be a 3-down player, say a 70+% snap count. Yet despite being off the injury report after week 1, his snap count has not gone up appreciably while Gilbert has continued to get a significant number of snaps at Perry's expense. So, jumping up on the depth chart can be a black and white way of thinking about it when situationally there are shades of gray.

CB is an interesting situation if all of the top 5 are healthy at the same time. The snap counts during week 1 were:

Williams 100%
King 100%
Alexander 70%
Jackson 66%

That indicates Pettine played 4-corner dime on 36% of the snaps against a Bears team better know for their run game than Trubisky as a threat, compounded by the Bears holding a 17-0 halftime lead where it would be expected they would want to run and control the clock in the second half. This may indicate a preference for a dime-heavy approach when all hands are on deck though Burks' absence may have been a factor. We won't have a better picture unless and until all 4 are healthy at the same time.

In any case, this is an instance of where who starts is not necessarily an indication of how much the other guys play. Those Alexander/Jackson snaps are pretty significant for their first NFL games. And it should be noted that Williams did not play on the perimeter for all snaps, taking some in the slot, indicating a preference to play matchups. King stays fixed at LCB when he plays. That may be a function of simplification or the fact he's probably the best run defender of the bunch on the side where opponents best run blockers typically reside, or a little of both.

Now Breeland is thrown into the mix. The fact he went unsigned that long and then signed this modest contract with the Packers raises questions. For the time being, that looks like a depth move, especially given the injury situation at the time he was signed and which has continued.
ng is healthy. I don't see that changing but it seems King has yet to take a healthy NFL snap so that projection many not be tested. In any event, the King injuries get the rookies more snaps and and opportunity to make their case.

Dude - you rock.

 

[HardRightEdge]

But even if this is who [Perry] is, cutting him makes no sense until 2020 at the earliest (and ideally, 2021). Even if he's merely a guy who can help in rotation, that's worth more to the Packers than cutting him and suffering a net loss of 8M in space. I think sometimes fans want under-performing players cut out of spite without giving enough consideration to what makes the most sense for the team.

It's an example of the "silent guarantee" that signing bonus dead cap provides:

https://overthecap.com/player/nick-perry/1129/

If, as you say, this is as good as it gets, the $14.7 mil cap number in 2019 superficially suggests moving on. But that's not the relevant number. The relevant number is the $3.6 mil cap savings after dead cap. So the question becomes what kind of edge rusher can you buy for even a rotational role for $3.6 mil? Not much, with Matthews being in a contract year weighing on the matter. The cap savings goes to $6.9 mil in 2020 at which point there would be a question if, for example, the Packers draft an edge in the next two years who comes roaring out of the gate and takes the lions share of his snaps, or what is likely to be the less expensive Gilbert who is already taking some of his snaps.

We would hope this is just another of the many Perry temporary setbacks, an issue not making the injury report. The concern is that the sequence of events is not "injured, 100%, injured, 100%, rinse and repeat." Repeated injuries over many years can take a mental as well as physical toll that isn't reversed. And he would not be the first guy who's hunger to win every snap is diminished by a slug of money in the bank.

 

[Mondio]

At this point, if Perry is actually hut all this time, then he's not going to get more healthy in the future. He's a chronic case at this point and prone. I think he's a bit lazy. Too much of the Datone Jones type attitude. Could be great, but only when he wants to. Which doesn't seem to be very often. Even if we can't buy anything for 3.6 million, i'm fine cutting the dead weight of his next year if he keeps this up.

 

[HardRightEdge]

No it's not. The Lions run defense was allowing over 5 yards per carry. With 30 minutes left in the game there is no reason to abandon the run especially when the passing game has looked like junk during the first half.

What was overlooked was the fact Detroit's passer-rating-against was over 100 going into the game. Their low pass yards surrendered was a function of having the fewest passes in the league thrown against them. The fact of the matter is that Detroit's defense was equally bad against the run and the pass over the first 4 games. Once you get past the blunder after blunder after blunder in the first half, their pass defense vulnerability was borne out.

I'm sorry, but when you get in that deep of a hole that early it is difficult to feature the run game. Still, there was the series where Jones got those 4 straight carries for 30+ yards in the second half, but with time running short conservation of clock and getting yards in chuncks becomes paramount.

There were deep holes to overcome against the Bears and Skins as well even if not the cavern against Detroit.

The one situation where I would have expected the Packers to come out with the run was up 20-7 against the Vikings with about 5 minutes left in the 3rd. quarter where it was incomplete-sack-short completion-punt.

The following series, up 20-14 early in the 4th., covered 62 yards in 10 plays, 4 runs, 6 passes, FG. Williams getting stopped on 3rd. and 2 ended the drive which might have been a difference maker.

In the Bills game, where the defense had things in hand throughout with a healthy 16 point lead at the half, the total mix was passes+sacks+QB runs = 47; RB carries = 27. 63% pass, 37% run is pretty balanced in today's game especially when Aaron Rodgers is your QB..

It's hard to feature the run more when in a halftime hole of varying depths in 3 of 5 games. It was featured more in the Bears game with a healthy lead. Situationally, score and time, really has not been conducive to featuring the run more.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And he would not be the first guy who's hunger to win every snap is diminished by a slug of money in the bank.

Sadly, I think this had become more prevalent and then toss in "contract year performance", where players go all out, knowing their payday may be based a lot on the year they have. The big money contracts are a Catch-22, if you don't pay them, another team will. If you do pay them, you are stuck, no matter what the player does.

At some point, if the NFL doesn't start incorporating incentive play for performance, the fans, myself included, will leave the game. It was one thing to see a guy make a few extra $100K in an off season, but now its turned into guys making a few extra Million no matter how bad they perform.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I've seen this notion tossed around "the Packers need to stick to the run game, it was averaging "X yards/carry". On the surface that seems to make a lot of sense, but the Packers are not a running team, that was made very evident last year when Hundley took over. Yes, the Packers can pick up some yards occasionally on the ground, but with AR at QB, they are a pass first offense and that is why the defenses they face give up some occasional chunks on the ground.

Packers just need to get better in their passing game, both AR and the receivers. Keep mixing in the run on occasion, but when down 24-0 at halftime, I don't see scoring enough points (32 in this case) while having enough time on the clock to do it, by suddenly switching to a run game.

What was overlooked was the fact Detroit's passer-rating-against was over 100 going into the game. Their low pass yards surrendered was a function of having the fewest passes in the league thrown against them. The fact of the matter is that Detroit's defense was equally bad against the run and the pass over the first 4 games. Once you get past the blunder after blunder after blunder in the first half, their pass defense vulnerability was borne out.

There were thirty minutes left in the game. The Packers did NOT have to score within 4 minutes on every one of their drives. There was plenty of time to mix in the run with the expectation that a few of those runs (had they been given to Jones at least) would probably have picked up decent chunks of yardage. If the offense scores within six minutes that's no a problem, especially when your passing game is relying pretty heavily on rookie receivers.

I'm no saying the Packer should have handed the ball off 35 times in the second half but any suggestion that the halftime deficit was a good reason to not give Aaron Jones a SINGLE carry in the second half is just plain wrong.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Sadly, I think this had become more prevalent and then toss in "contract year performance", where players go all out, knowing their payday may be based a lot on the year they have. The big money contracts are a Catch-22, if you don't pay them, another team will. If you do pay them, you are stuck, no matter what the player does.

At some point, if the NFL doesn't start incorporating incentive play for performance, the fans, myself included, will leave the game. It was one thing to see a guy make a few extra $100K in an off season, but now its turned into guys making a few extra Million no matter how bad they perform.

Fans will keep watching (in general, maybe not you). There have been guys in sports that underperform their contracts for decades. If you have a good team then you have guys like Kenny Clark that more than balance out the Matthews and Perry's of the world.