Dumervile to Green Bay?

[Dantés]

There's no doubt that the draft and develop philosophy has worked out pretty well with several defensive players over the past few years but overall the unit has mostly struggled.

I'm of the opinion that while both have been factors, Capers' scheme has been a bigger problem than talent deficiencies.

 

[Dantés]

Draft and develop works if the "next man up" is actually ready to assume the position and be productive. For too many years we saw it fail at ILB, S, TE and last year at RB and CB. This year it appears TT is going to try his luck with the D & D theory at OLB, we can only hope it works out similar to how it did at QB, WR and OL.

It has failed at times. I'd say on the whole, it's been successful. We will see what Fackrell can do. Hopefully he will have added some size to his big frame come the fall. I really liked Peppers here, but I'm not surprised that they chose to let go of a 37 year old. Nor am I really surprised that they didn't spend more money on a veteran edge guy after giving Perry that big contract (and having a lot tied up in Matthews still). But it should be restated that we're talking about these young guys as depth/rotational players. It's not like TT is counting on Fackrell or Biegel to start.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm of the opinion that while both have been factors, Capers' scheme has been a bigger problem than talent deficiencies.

When you factor in guys like Worthy, Jones, Thornton, Bradford, Neal....I think it goes beyond an issue with the scheme. We will see how Jones does in Minnesota, but for the most part, if a defensive draft pick has busted in GB, they haven't gone on to do much elsewhere (Hayward a recent exception).

 

[Dantés]

One thing to bear in mind-- I believe today is the first day that FA's can be signed without affecting the comp pick formula. TT might have some moves in mind that he's been waiting on. I know I'd like a veteran ILB behind Ryan and there are a couple out there that could work. Sio Moore has some ILB/OLB versatility to him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm of the opinion that while both have been factors, Capers' scheme has been a bigger problem than talent deficiencies.

Unfortuntely there's no way to find out as both Thompson and Capers are back for another season.

But it should be restated that we're talking about these young guys as depth/rotational players. It's not like TT is counting on Fackrell or Biegel to start.

The Packers are one injury to either Matthews or Perry, who both have missed numerous games in the past, away of having to start Elliott, Fackrell or Biegel.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's not like TT is counting on Fackrell or Biegel to start.

When you look at the snap counts of Matthews and Perry, this isn't like comparing a starting QB or WR and I know you weren't implying that. But when you factor in just how many plays the 2 starting OLB's will play, the guys behind them are very important.

 

[Dantés]

When you factor in guys like Worthy, Jones, Thornton, Bradford, Neal....I think it goes beyond an issue with the scheme. We will see how Jones does in Minnesota, but for the most part, if a defensive draft pick has busted in GB, they haven't gone on to do much elsewhere (Hayward a recent exception).

Right, it does go beyond the scheme. Which is why I said both scheme and talent have been factors. I just happen to think that Capers is a bigger problem than Thompson, if that makes sense.

Hayward is basically the only defensive player to leave GB after his rookie deal and play better somewhere else. But that could just as easily be because TT extends his own good players. He doesn't eschew FA just to sit on the money, as many assert. He keeps his own. I would say the reason you almost never see Packer defenders playing well on another team is because the good ones are kept, generally. They let Hayward walk because he was a nickel in Green Bay and they don't want to shell out at that position. Under this defensive staff, he never showed the outside/lockdown ability that he demonstrated in San Diego last year. Had Capers & Co. gotten that out of him, I think he would have been kept.

TT has had his notable misses in the top of the draft in recent years. Thornton, Worthy, and Neal were all taken in the top 3 rounds and were talent busts. I tend to think Jones was mishandled, but like you said-- we'll see. But all teams have busts. It seems to me that Capers can't make the whole thing work unless he has exactly what he needs at every position. He doesn't elevate the unit above the sum of its parts. For that reason, I would have moved on a long time ago.

I'm not trying to say that the Packers have been stacked with studs on defense and it just isn't working. TT has to do better too. Hopefully Randall, Rollins, Clark, and Fackrell will vindicate him this season. But I do think they've had more to work with in recent seasons than given credit for. I see DC's around the league making more out of less.

 

[Dantés]

When you look at the snap counts of Matthews and Perry, this isn't like comparing a starting QB or WR and I know you weren't implying that. But when you factor in just how many plays the 2 starting OLB's will play, the guys behind them are very important.

Indeed. I'm not saying otherwise. I was just making the point that the lead guys are known quantities. The unknown youth, while important and destined for a lot of snaps, aren't the starters.

 

[Dantés]

Unfortuntely there's no way to find out as both Thompson and Capers are back for another season.



The Packers are one injury to either Matthews or Perry, who both have missed numerous games in the past, away of having to start Elliott, Fackrell or Biegel.

Yes, that's how depth works.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Hayward is basically the only defensive player to leave GB after his rookie deal and play better somewhere else. But that could just as easily be because TT extends his own good players. He doesn't eschew FA just to sit on the money, as many assert. He keeps his own. I would say the reason you almost never see Packer defenders playing well on another team is because the good ones are kept, generally. They let Hayward walk because he was a nickel in Green Bay and they don't want to shell out at that position. Under this defensive staff, he never showed the outside/lockdown ability that he demonstrated in San Diego last year. Had Capers & Co. gotten that out of him, I think he would have been kept.

In my opinion that indicates that lack of talent is the main reason for the defense struggling over the past few years.

Yes, that's how depth works.

True, but the question remains about the depth players at outside linebacker having enough quality to perform at a decent level.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It seems to me that Capers can't make the whole thing work unless he has exactly what he needs at every position. He doesn't elevate the unit above the sum of its parts. For that reason, I would have moved on a long time ago.

This is the most frustrating part for me. I agree with you, unlike McCarthy on offense, Capers seems stuck. So what should TT be doing, besides firing Capers? He should be either drafting guys that better fit Capers defense OR use other means to acquire (Free agency/trade) players that do. When you look at the Free Agent defensive players that TT has signed.......you get a clear picture of what you are saying.....they fit Capers and his system and have success in Green Bay.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yes, that's how depth works.

The problem is, with the way that the Packers rotate their OLB's, 2 starters really isn't enough. Based on the amount of snaps we see at OLB, I almost view the position as a rotation of 3-4 starters. So if your "depth" or #3 and #4 guys aren't solid, there is going to be a problem. Not to mention that relying on Matthews for a solid play, non-injury season, is questionable in my mind.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The problem is, with the way that the Packers rotate their OLB's, 2 starters really isn't enough. Based on the amount of snaps we see at OLB, I almost view the position as a rotation of 3-4 starters. So if your "depth" or #3 and #4 guys aren't solid, there is going to be a problem. Not to mention that relying on Matthews for a solid play, non-injury season, is questionable in my mind.

I believe the Packers plan on Matthews and Perry to play a significant amount of snaps. I'm not convinced both will stay healthy enough to get it done though.

 

[Sky King]

...We can't assume that the young players behind the starters are static in their level of ability...

This.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

One thing to bear in mind-- I believe today is the first day that FA's can be signed without affecting the comp pick formula. TT might have some moves in mind that he's been waiting on. I know I'd like a veteran ILB behind Ryan and there are a couple out there that could work. Sio Moore has some ILB/OLB versatility to him.

I don't think that was affecting Thompson's thought plan, since the Packers were still a +1 over the max 4 comp picks. So even had they signed one more player, it wouldn't of affected the total of 4 for 2018, maybe the round though.

The current 2018 compensatory projections for the Packers are:

• one third-round pick (for Lang)
• one fifth-round pick (Tretter)
• two sixth-round picks (Cook, Lacy)

Signing Bennett canceled out the loss of Hyde and the Evans signing cancelled out the loss of Peppers. No comp pick will be received for the loss of Datone Jones.

 

[Pkrjones]

It seems to me that Capers can't make the whole thing work unless he has exactly what he needs at every position. He doesn't elevate the unit above the sum of its parts.

IMHO this is spot on! Last time this D was really firing was when Woodson was "running the show" in the defensive backfield.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

IMHO this is spot on! Last time this D was really firing was when Woodson was "running the show" in the defensive backfield.

The Packers had far more talent on the defensive side of the ball at that time though in Woodson, Collins and Matthews being elite.

 

[Dantés]

In my opinion that indicates that lack of talent is the main reason for the defense struggling over the past few years.



True, but the question remains about the depth players at outside linebacker having enough quality to perform at a decent level.

The question remains. Time will tell.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The question remains. Time will tell.

and sadly......the clock continues to tick on our offense being elite enough to get us to a Super Bowl, while TT and Capers try to solve the puzzle on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[n4t]

Capers game plan against Dallas in the playoffs was outstanding. Capers very often DOES elevate his defense above its mediocre parts. When he got to GB he had a lot of nice pieces to work with, and in short order got several more.

The D has suffered from attrition ever since, and the string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help. Adding Peppers a couple seasons back helped stop the bleeding, but having our DB situation implode pretty much took the wind out of those sails.

Life is complicated, and simplifying things to whose 'at fault' is not the least bit interesting to me.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Capers game plan against Dallas in the playoffs was outstanding. Capers very often DOES elevate his defense above its mediocre parts. When he got to GB he had a lot of nice pieces to work with, and in short order got several more.

The D has suffered from attrition ever since, and the string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help. Adding Peppers a couple seasons back helped stop the bleeding, but having our DB situation implode pretty much took the wind out of those sails.

Life is complicated, and simplifying things to whose 'at fault' is not the least bit interesting to me.

So how do you propose to "fix" things? When you car isn't running right, do you just say "it's the fault of something in the car, I don't want to blame one or more parts, maybe I need a new car" Or do you actually break it down as to what needs to be fixed to make the car run correctly? Same with Football, you don't fire all 26 guys on defense, but you figure out where the issues lie. You hint to maybe some fault being put on TT when you write "string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help", but the defensive woes aren't on TT?

 

[Dantés]

Capers game plan against Dallas in the playoffs was outstanding. Capers very often DOES elevate his defense above its mediocre parts. When he got to GB he had a lot of nice pieces to work with, and in short order got several more.

The D has suffered from attrition ever since, and the string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help. Adding Peppers a couple seasons back helped stop the bleeding, but having our DB situation implode pretty much took the wind out of those sails.

Life is complicated, and simplifying things to whose 'at fault' is not the least bit interesting to me.

I don't know about that.

The Cowboys met or exceeded their season averages in total yards (440), passing yards (302), YPA (7.9), YPC (5.75), and points (31). The only major stat that was down for them compared to their season average was total rushing yards, and Zeke still rumbled for 125.

Capers was leaving the defense in nickel against 6 OL looks.

The only reason the Packers actually won that game was because of an absolutely amazing throw and catch on 3rd and 20.

Look, I'm not trying to be sensational here. I don't think the guy's a buffoon or that he's secretly got All-Pro's all over the place that he's messing up. But I do think that he's a system guy. He runs a very complex scheme and he isn't especially adaptable to the talent that's available to him. If you give him all the parts for his defense, he'll make it go. But if he has to make due with less than ideal pieces, he's unlikely to thrive.

He reminds me of a defensive Norv Turner. Turner's offenses could lead the league in San Diego when he had the personnel he wanted. But when deficiencies cropped up, he was terrible at adjusting to the weaknesses and elevating the play of the unit. When Mike McCoy and Ken Whisenhunt took over in 2013, the offense went from 20th in points to 12th without major changes in the personnel. They just did a better job of coaching around the weaknesses.

I think he was the right coach at the right time back in 2010, but it's time to move on.

 

[Dantés]

So how do you propose to "fix" things? When you car isn't running right, do you just say "it's the fault of something in the car, I don't want to blame one or more parts, maybe I need a new car" Or do you actually break it down as to what needs to be fixed to make the car run correctly? Same with Football, you don't fire all 26 guys on defense, but you figure out where the issues lie. You hint to maybe some fault being put on TT when you write "string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help", but the defensive woes aren't on TT?

In this analogy, what's the equivalent to public transportation?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

In this analogy, what's the equivalent to public transportation?

Living in Cleveland

 

[pizzle]

Sio Moore has some ILB/OLB versatility to him.

Never heard of this guy before-looked him up real quick. Should DEF be on the phone trying to sign this guy. Ted, GET TO WORK!