Dumervile to Green Bay?

[Deleted member 6794]

Never heard of this guy before-looked him up real quick. Should DEF be on the phone trying to sign this guy. Ted, GET TO WORK!

It's surprising Moore hasn't been signed by a team so far. I wouldn't mind Thompson signing him for a reasonable deal.

 

[Half Empty]

Capers game plan against Dallas in the playoffs was outstanding. Capers very often DOES elevate his defense above its mediocre parts. When he got to GB he had a lot of nice pieces to work with, and in short order got several more.

The D has suffered from attrition ever since, and the string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help. Adding Peppers a couple seasons back helped stop the bleeding, but having our DB situation implode pretty much took the wind out of those sails.

Life is complicated, and simplifying things to whose 'at fault' is not the least bit interesting to me.

Looking forward to your complex dissertations in the future on topics that do interest you.

 

[n4t]

So how do you propose to "fix" things? When you car isn't running right, do you just say "it's the fault of something in the car, I don't want to blame one or more parts, maybe I need a new car" Or do you actually break it down as to what needs to be fixed to make the car run correctly? Same with Football, you don't fire all 26 guys on defense, but you figure out where the issues lie. You hint to maybe some fault being put on TT when you write "string of failed draft picks and no FAs certainly hasn't done anything to help", but the defensive woes aren't on TT?

Context. Perspective. Objectivity. These are some words.

So what's going to happen, PB, when a vaunted forum poster finally proves beyond all doubt that TT or DC or MM sucks? Will there be firings? Will there be cheering in the streets? Will we carry our new hero on our shoulders all the way to 1265 where he can assume the mantel of leadership?

 

[n4t]

I don't know about that.

The Cowboys met or exceeded their season averages in total yards (440), passing yards (302), YPA (7.9), YPC (5.75), and points (31). The only major stat that was down for them compared to their season average was total rushing yards, and Zeke still rumbled for 125.
....

I don't think you can necessarily refute my statement with stats, considering we had a banged-up D with inferior talent. DC put out a different front 7 (or 6) every down, and shifted the whole line before every run down snap. There was so much chaos going on it was glorious. They didn't win the stat column, but the aggressive calls and chaos got the job done.

I will concede your point that DC's scheme is very complex and he doesn't often show the flexibility to deal with lining up just any guys. But I've seen this argument shake out and most any coordinator would struggle when they simply don't have the horses. I don't believe you can scheme your way to victory in this game with any degree of success. Can DC pull off a decent-enough game with a bunch of JAGs? I believe he can, and that's why they like him.

And honestly I like DC's scheme, as long as he stays aggressive. Not so much when he backs off the gas.

 

[Half Empty]

And honestly I like DC's scheme, as long as he stays aggressive. Not so much when he backs off the gas.

Now, there's some WIMM click bait if I ever saw any. Numbers, Capt, numbers.

 

[Dantés]

I don't think you can necessarily refute my statement with stats, considering we had a banged-up D with inferior talent. DC put out a different front 7 (or 6) every down, and shifted the whole line before every run down snap. There was so much chaos going on it was glorious. They didn't win the stat column, but the aggressive calls and chaos got the job done.

I will concede your point that DC's scheme is very complex and he doesn't often show the flexibility to deal with lining up just any guys. But I've seen this argument shake out and most any coordinator would struggle when they simply don't have the horses. I don't believe you can scheme your way to victory in this game with any degree of success. Can DC pull off a decent-enough game with a bunch of JAGs? I believe he can, and that's why they like him.

And honestly I like DC's scheme, as long as he stays aggressive. Not so much when he backs off the gas.

Neither of us can truly refute opinion statements like "Capers had a great game plan" or "no, he didn't." We can merely offer arguments and evidence. The statistics constitute evidence for my argument. I was not overly impressed by Capers' approach in that game and I think that take makes sense in light of the beat down that Dallas put on his unit. I also pointed out that his gameplan was often formationally vulnerable.

It's unrealistic to think that a coordinator will be able to turn crap into gold. But the good ones can elevate the play of the unit beyond the sum of its parts. In my opinion, this is what we've seen from Wade Phillips, Belichick/Patricia, Marinelli, Mike Zimmer, Bob Sutton, Keith Butler, Jim Schwartz, Teryl Austin, Mike Smith, and Vic Fangio to name a few (at various times and to varying extents-- not trying to put all these guys on an equal plane). Most of these guys, in my opinion, are more capable than Capers in adjusting to weaknesses on the roster and adapting to the talent available to them and/or teaching players to execute their system correctly and developing their skill sets in doing so.

Capers isn't a bozo by any stretch, but he's been here for 8 years and had plenty of time to prove, at least to me, that unless you give him just exactly what he needs he isn't going to yield great returns. I disagree that he's been handed just a bunch of JAGs and asked to make chicken salad. That is just as misguided as saying that he has pro bowl talent at every position that he can't unlock. It's past time to move on and see if they can't find someone in line with the names I mentioned above. I tend to think this would have happened already if not for the fact that we always finish 1-4 weeks into the postseason, when many replacement candidates have already been claimed.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's past time to move on and see if they can't find someone in line with the names I mentioned above. I tend to think this would have happened already if not for the fact that we always finish 1-4 weeks into the postseason, when many replacement candidates have already been claimed.

While the Packers annually playing in the playoffs and therefore some coordinators already having been claimed once their season ended might have factored into the team holding on to Capers I believe there would have been several viable candidates available to replace him nevertheless.

 

[Dantés]

While the Packers annually playing in the playoffs and therefore some coordinators already having been claimed once their season ended might have factored into the team holding on to Capers I believe there would have been several viable candidates available to replace him nevertheless.

Maybe that's true. Maybe Capers is kept simply because of their commitment to continuity. But I think it's a possibility.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Maybe that's true. Maybe Capers is kept simply because of their commitment to continuity. But I think it's a possibility.

One thing is for sure though, the Packers could have promoted someone from within the organization but obviously didn't feel comfortable about making such a move.

 

[Dantés]

One thing is for sure though, the Packers could have promoted someone from within the organization but obviously didn't feel comfortable about making such a move.

I was ready to just promote Winston Moss this last offseason, but it didn't happen.

Moss is a bit of strange case. He goes way, way back with McCarthy and has been an LB coach for 16 years now. He's 51. You would have thought he'd get his shot by now.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I was ready to just promote Winston Moss this last offseason, but it didn't happen.

I'm not totally convinced Moss would be a great choice as the inside linebackers he has mostly been responsible for over the past eight seasons haven't performed at a high level for most of that time frame.

 

[Dantés]

I'm not totally convinced Moss would be a great choice as the inside linebackers he has mostly been responsible for over the past eight seasons haven't performed at a high level for most of that time frame.

That's true, but he's be responsible for all of the linebackers for some time, both outside and inside. And he's also been dealing mostly with late round picks at ILB. This FO just doesn't value that position. If Ryan and Martinez play well together, that could state a case for him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's true, but he's be responsible for all of the linebackers for some time, both outside and inside. And he's also been dealing mostly with late round picks at ILB. This FO just doesn't value that position. If Ryan and Martinez play well together, that could state a case for him.

While that's true the outside linebackers haven't been dominant by any means over the past three seasons despite featuring three or four former first round picks.

 

[Dantés]

If they went for the outside hire, McCarthy has some connection with Mike Nolan (not super excited about that, but relationships often dictate these things). He also has a connection to Jason Tarver, who has interviewed for DC jobs in recent seasons.

A name I really like is Jerome Henderson, DB's coach from Atlanta. He's been a DB's coach going back to 2008. He just arrived in ATL last year, and the DB's came alive under him. Keanu Neal and Jalen Collins played well as rookies and Robert Alford had a career year. He would bring a simpler scheme that allows younger players to think less and play faster.

I'd also keep tabs on Teryl Austin, Vic Fangio, and Todd Bowles if those coaching staffs get wiped out.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Context. Perspective. Objectivity. These are some words.

So what's going to happen, PB, when a vaunted forum poster finally proves beyond all doubt that TT or DC or MM sucks? Will there be firings? Will there be cheering in the streets? Will we carry our new hero on our shoulders all the way to 1265 where he can assume the mantel of leadership?

I guess I am not following your logic or your point. This is a Packer Fan forum, not the Packers front office. I don't think many of us have delusions of grandeur and think we influence any decisions that the Packers make, how they play, etc. If you view discussion of such as a waste of time, what are you here for?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not totally convinced Moss would be a great choice as the inside linebackers he has mostly been responsible for over the past eight seasons haven't performed at a high level for most of that time frame.

Totally agree with you.

Seems like Moss gets an occasional interview with other teams to be promoted, but never gets offered the job. McKenzie interviewed him in 2012 for the Raiders HC position and it was labeled as an interview that "did not go well". I believe the Titans and Dolphins have considered Moss for positions as well.

 

[Dantés]

While that's true the outside linebackers haven't been dominant by any means over the past three seasons despite featuring three or four former first round picks.

Perry has come into his own and Matthews developed from super raw rookie into a DPOtY candidate. Who are the others? I guess you mean Jones and Peppers? I'd say Peppers met or exceeded all expectations you could place on a guy his age, and Jones was an OLB for all of one season after being converted from the DL.

 

[Dantés]

Context. Perspective. Objectivity. These are some words.

So what's going to happen, PB, when a vaunted forum poster finally proves beyond all doubt that TT or DC or MM sucks? Will there be firings? Will there be cheering in the streets? Will we carry our new hero on our shoulders all the way to 1265 where he can assume the mantel of leadership?

I totally agree that "context," "perspective," and "objectivity" collectively are an example of "some words"

 

[OldSchool101]

Context. Perspective. Objectivity. These are some words.

So what's going to happen, PB, when a vaunted forum poster finally proves beyond all doubt that TT or DC or MM sucks? Will there be firings? Will there be cheering in the streets? Will we carry our new hero on our shoulders all the way to 1265 where he can assume the mantel of leadership?

Yes definitely I'll be involved in the last 2 if it involves Capers and depending on how heavy the new D.C. is!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Perry has come into his own and Matthews developed from super raw rookie into a DPOtY candidate. Who are the others? I guess you mean Jones and Peppers? I'd say Peppers met or exceeded all expectations you could place on a guy his age, and Jones was an OLB for all of one season after being converted from the DL.

Kevin Greene was the outside linebacker position coach when Matthews developed into an elite pass rusher though as Moss took over this role in 2014.

 

[Mondio]

I guess I am not following your logic or your point. This is a Packer Fan forum, not the Packers front office. I don't think many of us have delusions of grandeur and think we influence any decisions that the Packers make, how they play, etc. If you view discussion of such as a waste of time, what are you here for?

I can illustrate what he's saying with this example. There are more than a handful that absolutely know everything. Just ask them there's a difference between discussing what has worked and what hasn't and what the reasons might be for each.

For example last year and the situation at DB. Lots happened, lots was happening every week. When I look at all of it, I can appreciate the very tough position the team was put in from trying to perform on the field and the front office and coaches trying to coach players and use roster spots to try and maintain a solid team. Things posters usually think nothing of.

Anyway, a DB with the last name Hayden was a name tossed out repeatedly that ted should have traded for. He performed as well as Randall and more than a few would have had us give multiple draft picks AND take his 10+ million dollar a year salary.

By years end it was apparent we couldn't overcome injuries and the production on the field wasn't what it needed to be. For a lot of reasons, but what also was very apparent was the Packers had no business trading picks for Hayden for even a league minimum salary let alone being in the hook for 10+ million per.

Hey, I thought the guy might be worth a look too, knowing nothing but what used to be said about him because I can't claim to watch the Browns and know how good he really was. I was wrong, so we're a bunch of other people. But they conveniently just drop that part of their argument and have now moved on using a couple DBs from the bills ( a team I know none of you guys watch either) and the Texans not now with this team as the reason Ted still sucks, he still doesn't do his job, he still wants this team to lose before we get to a super bowl and on and on.

They still think signing guys will automatically equal enough wins to win it all. Brady and Moss for example. 14 thousand touchdowns in one season and no super bowl win. Case and point that there are a lot more variables at work in winning a super bowl than what a lot of people want to admit to.

Anyway, if I'm betting, I'm betting he's had enough of the absolute talk from people that have a worse average than the guy in charge and they never have to own up to all their misses. Just move along to the next "hit" and tell everyone why Ted doesn't do his job. The only variables that matter are the ones they say matter depending on the debate.

 

[n4t]

I guess I am not following your logic or your point. This is a Packer Fan forum, not the Packers front office. I don't think many of us have delusions of grandeur and think we influence any decisions that the Packers make, how they play, etc. If you view discussion of such as a waste of time, what are you here for?

I was pretty pin-point specific on what I thought was a waste of time. Why do you feel the need to obfuscate?

I am all for reasoned arguments and discussion. I feel that reducing the discussion to simply blaming 'the guy in charge' is the intellectual equivalent to breathing through your mouth.

I won't persist in this argument. I said my piece.

 

[OldSchool101]

I was pretty pin-point specific on what I thought was a waste of time. Why do you feel the need to obfuscate?

I am all for reasoned arguments and discussion. I feel that reducing the discussion to simply blaming 'the guy in charge' is the intellectual equivalent to breathing through your mouth.

I won't persist in this argument. I said my piece.

I'm just happy I was able to research what the word obfuscate is. The rest of this didn't bother me nearly as much as trying to say that word. I've already used it on several folks at work, but it's definitely part of my vocabulary henceforth forthwith and even withstanding some of the strange looks I've gotten using it

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I was pretty pin-point specific on what I thought was a waste of time. Why do you feel the need to obfuscate?

I am all for reasoned arguments and discussion. I feel that reducing the discussion to simply blaming 'the guy in charge' is the intellectual equivalent to breathing through your mouth.

I won't persist in this argument. I said my piece.

Again, why exactly are you here if all you see are posters that are mouth breathers with no reasoned thoughts?

Obviously you are having a hard time following some posters reasonable arguments and discussion on topics and may only be seeing what you want and calling it "blaming the guy in charge". When you imply that posters are not staying in context or using perspective or objectivity, you are more likely to obfuscate people than enlighten them.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I can illustrate what he's saying with this example. There are more than a handful that absolutely know everything. Just ask them there's a difference between discussing what has worked and what hasn't and what the reasons might be for each.

Anyway, if I'm betting, I'm betting he's had enough of the absolute talk from people that have a worse average than the guy in charge and they never have to own up to all their misses. Just move along to the next "hit" and tell everyone why Ted doesn't do his job. The only variables that matter are the ones they say matter depending on the debate.

While I get what you are saying Mondio, aren't forums about people sharing their thoughts and ideas, no matter how wild some might think they are? Like I said, we aren't running the Packers. Nothing written here does squat, it's just a bunch of Packer fans throwing things at the wall. We all have varying degrees of confidence in what we write, if that offends someone, then they really shouldn't be reading a fan forum and if they choose to, why are they complaining about having to read it?