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Aaron Rodgers Talent

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by whoartthou, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. slaughter25

    slaughter25 Cheesehead

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    Wow, devildon sure is salty... Welcome to the board whoartthou.
     
  2. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I took your comments as praise for Rodgers, always refreshing coming from a fan of another team.

    I actually got into an argument this morning with an Eagles fan who tried to tell me that Vick was better than Rodgers. I referenced some points made in this thread as a foundation for my argument. I enjoyed taking him down piece by piece. Eagles fans can be very frustrating.

    Anyway, I have some more stuff to add:

    As good as Rodgers is playing right now, perhaps the scariest thing of all, is that he is still improving. It's almost as if with every game he gets better and I notice something different. I don't think he has even neared hitting his crescendo. He's hitting his targets with alarming accuracy and it doesn't hurt that he has an arsenal of weapons to choose from. The number of plays he can run is infinite. He's also getting protection from the o-line that he didn't get last year. There was one play in the Broncos game where he literally had a wall of protection that stretched out in a straight line from either side. I don't think a single Bronco managed to get through that wall. Watching the replay from the aerial view, it was like watching pure perfection. This is more praise for the o-line, but it gives Rodgers time to wind up and you know how deadly that can be.

    Our offense got me thinking of how hard it must be to game plan against us. They have 11 guys and more than half of them need to be in two places at once. Zone doesn't seem to work, there is just too many places we can go. The only other thing I can think of is man to man. But I can't even think of a team who has used even that effectively against us. Not with the speed of our guys, one or several Packers are going to bust out of coverage and with the pocket protection Rodgers has now, it only takes a fraction of an inch to hit up one of them. You have say, 6 or 7 guys on our offense that need double coverage. Not to mention that we now have an emerging running game to take the pressure off the passing game. Starks has been a Godsend, Grant is a rock and Alex Green is an emerging new talent. How can the opposing D line even try and read our plays? If we line up with 3 wideouts, a TE (Finley!), and 1 or 2 RBs, how can you defend against that?

    By the way, I won that little argument with the Eagles fan but I felt bad for him and told him I'd buy him a beer later as consolation for my harsh words of literal truth. The sword of truth cuts deep and the Eagles are already bleeding. I felt bad for the guy in the end.
     
  3. Purplepeopleeater

    Purplepeopleeater Cheesehead

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    I just mentioned this in another thread, but this is telling how good Rodgers is: Tell me honestly Packer fans, what would happen to your team if Rodgers went down for the season like Manning? I don't even know who your backup is, but envision the scenario and tell me what you think would happen: 1) What place would the Packers finish in the division? and 2) Would the Packers make the playoffs?
     
  4. skibum55

    skibum55 Cheesehead

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    Here are the answers you desire:

    I don't even know who your backup is...Matt Flynn (think Kevin Kolb to Tom Brady).

    1) What place would the Packers finish in the division? First

    and 2) Would the Packers make the playoffs? - Yes.
     
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  5. Canada's #1 Packer Fan

    Canada's #1 Packer Fan Cheesehead

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    i was at the packers game on sunday against denver and if you think rodgers is great on tv see this guy in the game itself. the packer crowd was amazed at him on sunday and i think 50% of those wearing packers jerseys had on #12. as long as this guys stays healthy the packers are going to be super bowl contender for years. you just get goosebumps in the crowd watching him

    MVP

    Go Pack Go
     
  6. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    I agree with you, Brady is the best of them so far.
    I'll drink to that about Manning, good quarterback, he's great but I think most of his career he's been surrounded by great talent and other than his Super Bowl win (which wasn't the best numbers) he's got terrible playoff records, including the pick 6 to the Saints a few years back.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Flynn is our back up..He started vs the Pats last year in NE, and almost pulled the game out..

    I am not sure we would make the playoffs..We would get beat out by Detroit I think..

    Simply because Flynn doesnt have the game experience yet..But give Flynn more than a handfull of games, he can be a very good q/b
     
  8. gwh11

    gwh11 Cheesehead

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    If you believe Rodgers is a superior talent--and he is--you have to think the team would falter badly if he went down.
    If it was "just" the coaching, schemes, etc., you could just plug Flynn in and enjoy cruise control to the playoffs. As talented as the defense may be, that would be unlikely.
     
  9. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    We have a bit of a love affair with Flynn. Its complicated.
     
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  10. whoartthou

    whoartthou Cheesehead

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    One thing that pisses me off about people is when they claim that rodgers is who he is because of the talent around him... that is absolute rubbish. Who did montana have again? Thats right.... the greatest WR of all time.. should we be belittling montana? OF course not.

    Michael jordan had the greatest SF of all time (defensively)... should we degrade MJ?

    Should we claim that Magic Johnson was a product of his stacked teams? He did after all have one of the greatest teams of all time..

    Great players make things work regardless of who is around them (of course the talent needs to be there, but they allow it to mesh). Look what belichick and brady are able to do with the talent around them (yes the patriots do indeed have a talented team, but in the past they rarely had superstar names other than randy moss).

    Look at what rodgers and mccarthy have done in such a short period of time... with massive injuries to the squad last year, and easy superbowl victory? This is going to be scary for the rest of the league for years to come (hopefully mr.rodgers doesn't get injured, i hate when a great talent's career goes down the drain due to injures). See penny hardaway.

    And besides, i honestly think aaron rodgers was critical to the development of his WR'S. Does he have a stacked offensive team? Sure he does in nelson, jennings, etc etc. Does that mean Rodgers is not the main reason for their offensive success? Of course not. How many times did rodgers have to make clutch throw after clutch throw in the post season last year? How many times on 3rd downs did you hold your breath after rodgers somehow got you that first down?
     
  11. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yes one of the most talented QBs of all time.

    He has the Steve Young ability with the Joe Montana personality. I know the story is out there but Rodgers had bad mechanics and a not very stong arm, he had to work extremely hard to get where he is, and now he has one of the quickest releases in football, the best pinpoint accuracy maybe ever, and can make every single throw.

    Rodgers has some areas of concern. His touch on balls that need it is lacking, particularly in short yardage. He misses a lot of screens.

    Rodgers' best ball BY FAR is the seam route, he can fit it anywhere he wants, it's amazing actually.

    He improved his pocket presence tremenduously, he used to be very reluctant to move to his checkdown receivers, and because his #1 focus has always been to not make bad decisions, he used to tuck the ball and take a sack.

    Now, because of his accuracy, he trusts more the throws and the protection.

    There are still areas to work with, particularly the pre-snap reads, but this last 10 games he has been impecable in that department. But he's still not in the area of Tom Brady and Manning. He'll be, though, with more experience, just with his work ethic and intelligence that are off the roof. Plus he's a grudge holder, he gets motivated by the silliest things, and remembers every single negative comment about him. He's constantly motivated, that's why he's so consistant, having never had a turnover differential of less than 1 (Rodgers never threw 2 more ints than TDs, having only thrown for 3 ints 3 times, the last one week 8 of the 2009 season against Tampa). His decision making is one of the best in the league, almost on par with Tom Brady's. He has actually a better career INT% (1.9 to Rodgers, 2.2 to Brady, both spetacular. Manning is 2.7, to illustrate)

    In short, Rodgers makes great decisions, is very mobile, extremely accurate, can make every throw, is good at sensing the pressure, is great at pre-snap and post-snap reads. His short accuracy and touch are not as good, he can still hold onto the ball too long sometimes (but nothing near his 2 first years as a starter).

    Comparison, he's, like I said, the most pinpoint accurate QB ever. More than Marino, Montana, Young, Favre... He can fit the ball simply anywhere he wants.

    Montana is the second best decision maker there ever was, just surpassed by Starr. He could very well be the #1, but Starr had to call every play on offense, not only play QB. The result are 5 championships with him earning SB MVP honors both times he played in a SB, and the second best (only surpassed by Rodgers) postseason QB rating of all time, and having orchestrated one of the best scoring offenses of all time in 62, 29,65 points per game (In the 1960's). Montana also threw IMHO the second best slant outside of Favre. His short accuracy was as good as Brady's.

    Marino, the big point about Marino was his field vision. Best of all time no question, coupled with the quickest release of all time. Once Bill Walsh, in a conversation with Marino, asked him how he went through his progressions, what he did vs zone and man etc... Marino said he didn't do any of that, he just threw to the open man. That tells you how great of field vision this guy had, to be able to not study as much as others and just play ball. That's also IMHO the reason he never won a SB and played poorly in the postseason, but that's another topic...

    Manning is the cerebral guy, much of what is done nowadays in terms of how to throw against certain coverages he pratically came up with on his own. The guy is the master of the pre-snap read, and, unlike his brother, is also very skilled at post-snap reads. Manning tends to be afraid of the rush, though. If you get in his face he can make poor decisions, he doesn't have the physical skills that Rodgers has to be able to throw accurately on backfoot.

    Brady is very similar to Manning, but he's more of a short passes guy as opposed to Manning who likes to work the medium routes. Brady is all about the LOS, and winning in there. That doesn't mean he's not accurate deep thrower, we're talking about first ballot Hall of Famers in here. Just listing the areas where these guys are the best of all time. He's also one of the best decision makers of all time.

    To me the best QB of all time is Starr, because of all his championships, and the way he played in crunch time (again, second best postseason QB rating of all time at 104.8 only behind Rodgers' 112.6, but in a MUCH harder era to throw the ball), having to not only play but also scheme.

    I do think Rodgers has the ability to be the best of all time, he currently sits at #1 for career QB rating with 100.5, #1 for postseason QB rating with 112.6, #1 for most games with 100 QB rating with 29 (in 63 games, might I add), #1 in INT% with 1.9, #1 in 3rd down QB rating with 111.5, and I don't exactly remember the number but he has something like 65 TDs to 2 INTS in the redzone.

    Great topic, man, and welcome to the forum!

    (ps.: sorry for the long post. Kept writing...)
     
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  12. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Any time people make claims about a player from situations, without analysing his play, it is assinine.

    The talent around him does improve his stats (though he has always lacked a potent running game), but it's not the talent around him making GREAT decisions almost every single time and having pinpoint accuracy.

    Are you sure you're not a Packer fan, BTW?
     
  13. whoartthou

    whoartthou Cheesehead

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    nope, patriots first! :D
     
  14. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    It's just that, fans from "new" franchises (the Pats only started winning in the 2000's) tend to think a lot like ESPN... Gladly surprised to see another fan who doesn't simply buys the hype but actually watches the games.
     
  15. whoartthou

    whoartthou Cheesehead

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    GREAT post man, great post. I almost agree entirely with what you just typed out. Aaron rodgers definitely has the tools to be one of the greats (if not the BEST), only time will tell if he gets it done (i.e. no injuries, team stays together etc etc).

    Regarding the manning/brady things, i agree with most things except that i think brady was a terrible deep thrower when he first came into the league and than improved that aspect TREMENDOUSLY. Hell, when he got a potent WR in moss, we had one of the greatest offensive seasons from a QB ever (And WR). I think mr.brady showed he can play it deep if need be (but i believe belichicks likes the short passing game much more).

    You were 100 percent spot on with mr.rodgers. His short-passing game might not be on par with others (brady is who you mentioned)... but he can EASILY improve that aspect of his game. But then again, the way the packers play, he might not need to, especially when he can consistently throw bombs with pin-point accuracy.

    I think the "X-FACTOR," with aaron rodgers is that he can make EVERY SHOT in the book with PIN-POINT ACCURACY. How the "expletive" do you defend that? On top of that, mr.rodgers is one of the most capable QB runners in the NFL (maybe all time??). I think Vick and rodgers are equals in this category (yes vick is more athletic, but rodgers knows when to run as opposed to just blatantly doing it).

    What makes rodgers so great (and IMO what manning TRULY lacks), is playing your best football in the biggest and most important moments. Rodgers does not have a single bone in his body that spells CHOKE. He just gets it done when need to be.. (brady is similar in this aspect, however, in the last two post-seasons he did not play up to par).

    Nonetheless, great post
     
  16. whoartthou

    whoartthou Cheesehead

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    this is true but i think patriots fans are different. Obviously i can't speak for ALL patriots fans, but the ones down at patsfan.net, they give props when its due. And mr.rodgers definitely is getting his due from these guys.
     
  17. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yeah, I've watched the Patriots-Dolphins game, and Brady made several great long throws. I think you're right, he wasn't as good but is greatly improving. It's, like I said, nitpicking on a first ballot Hall of Fame.

    As for choking, I'm not one to believe it in Hall of Famers. I think there are areas of the QBs' game that makes them less successful in the playoffs, when the competition is closer and defenses tend to play their best.

    In Manning's case, IMHO it's his decision making in the face of pressure. I think it's a proven method, and one that really good defenses can use, particularly the zone-blitz defenses (also why Manning struggles against 3-4 defenses, that and the confusion at post-snap reads, which he struggles a bit, not like Eli though). Because his team usually doesn't have a running game to compliment him, and his defense is never a shutdown defense but a bend-down-break, he ends up "choking". Manning doesn't have the arm nor is mobile enough to be able to make plays when pressured.

    In Marino's case, it's his work ethic. Like I said above, he wasn't a big preparation guy, and when he played teams like the 49ers, it came to bite him in the ***. You can't just play for feel against great defenses, no matter how talented you are, and Marino is the most natural QB ever.

    In Favre's case, it was his tendency to throw into QUINTUPLE coverage. Again, despite Favre having one of the greatest arms of all time, and being able to make amazing throws, you cannot win in the playoffs against great teams by forcing the ball...
     
  18. cheeseheadfanatic87

    cheeseheadfanatic87 Cheesehead

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    Well it's nice that you have been very humble about this you being a Patriots fan, and that's nice to hear. I've told my Dad before, that I think Rodgers is perhaps the best QB I've ever seen. I mean his footwork is above and beyond anybody in the league, he senses pressure well, and he extends plays with his feet, his passing and accuracy is amazing-- I mean I think almost every pass he throws he puts right where he wants too and he sure fires a nice pass as well.

    I think all around this kid probably is one of the better QB prospects in quite sometime. He has a 100.5 career passer rating, and he's only 27. He's going to put up some nice numbers.
     
  19. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Funny you talk about QB prospect, his footwork and mechanics coming out of college were very awkward and his arm strenght was only above average.

    It's just to show you can't measure a guy's desire to be greay.
     
  20. cheeseheadfanatic87

    cheeseheadfanatic87 Cheesehead

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    Yes it was, he had a high release on his ball and as you said didn't have the arm strength he has now. I still remember watching the Cal vs Texas Tech game, and interviewing Rodgers after the game. He's come a long way, and it's extremely rare that a QB can change his throwing mechanics especially that late in his career.

    He use to hold the ball extremely high next to his helmet, and didn't quite have the zip. But he's really changed his game. He's a special player I think once in a few decade athlete. This guy has improved his game from college to the pros and honestly I can't name one player that has progressed that far in such a short span.
     
  21. cheeseheadfanatic87

    cheeseheadfanatic87 Cheesehead

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    And he was a Jeff Tedford product... and we all know Tedford doesn't have a good track record(Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Trent Dilfer, and Kyle Boller). He has transformed himself into a new player like I've never seen before.
     
  22. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Where art thou, Patriots fan?

    I'm gonna turn the tables on you for a bit. You've heard what we think of Rodgers, now I would like to know what is going on in Patriots country. Do you think Brady is still in his prime? Past his prime? How many SBs do you think he has left? Would you still define him as elite? I ask this because your Patriots are probably my Packers #1 threat in the AFC. If these two teams met in the SB right now, who do you think would win? Who would get MVP?

    Also, what's your backup QB situation like. I don't mean for if Brady gets injured (hopefully he doesn't, nobody really wants that), but for when he decides to retire? My guess is BB is already 3 steps ahead of that question and either already has somebody lined up or has been scouting prospects. BB, as an owner is one of the smartest in the industry in terms of drafting. He's a genius. I like to compare him to our own Ted Thompson (TT) in that respect.

    Back to Brady, as you praised our Rodgers, I offer you the same to Brady. He is one of the best of our time. The year you guys beat the Eagles in the SB ('o3?), I thought the Patriots were superhuman. That team reminds me of my current day Packers in terms of sheer chemistry and talent. I would compare either teams to the Cowboys super team in the mid '90s that had our darling Aikmen, Emmett Smith, and Micheal Irving. Even if you are not a fan of the Packers, Cowboys or Patriots, if deep down you just love football in its essence, you can learn to love and appreciate the spellbinding way they play and how they just captivate you.

    Unrelated, what do you think of Deion Branch? I have him on my fantasy team.

    I hope your Patriots destroy the Jets this Sunday. I loathe the freakin Jets more than any other team.
     
  23. whoartthou

    whoartthou Cheesehead

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    Hey kitten, i will try my best to answer these questions.
    Is brady still in his prime? I guess that depends on how you define prime. He is putting up as good if not better numbers than when he was in his prime (i.e. superbowl winning days). I don't think brady is as good as he was in 2007, but he is very close. The thing is, however, in the playoffs, particularly the last two years, brady has looked "disinterested" or shook-up against the ravens and the jets. I have no idea why he shows this demeanor (especially when we are so used to his "cool" demeanor on the field). I believe it may have something to with his horrible knee injury he suffered in 08. Anyhow, we all saw what brady was capable of last year (those spectacular games against the steelers, monday night football vs the jets, etc etc).

    Yes, brady is still in the elite category (him and aaron rodgers are the top two QBS in the league atm IMO).

    I believe brady has atleast one more SB left in him (hopefully more :D). We have one of the best offenses in the league (packers probably number one), and our defense can only get better (even though we are what dead last right now??). I can see the patriots and brady making a few more SB's, but winning them i am not so sure..In short, i see brady ending up with 4 superbowls.

    If the packers and the patriots met right now in the superbowl.. it would either be a toss-up, or 60-40 packers edge. I could see a shoot-out between the two teams (since both of our defenses seems porous and are very "opportunistic"). Nonetheless, i believe mr.rodgers would put up better numbers than brady in the superbowl (by how much who knows). Thus, if the packers won, rodgers would be the mvp. If patriots won, vice-versa.

    Our back-up quarterback as of now is hoyer... and hes not a great quarterback but he isn't bad either. I guess he was drawing comparisons to matt cassel (who did really well when brady went down.. but i believe most of that had to do with the relatively easy schedule he faced during his tenure. I believe cassel faced one of the easiest schedules in the past 10 years for the patriots. Nonetheless, cassel did pretty well with the kansas chiefs too :D) I guess we would still be able to develop as a team... but i doubt we would make the playoffs right away.

    Deion branch is a peculiar WR. Similar to my boy wes welker, deion branch seems to only flourish in the patriots system rather than in any other system (same can be said about welker). I think the reason for this is because belichick is known for bringing out the best in most of his players, and he certainly does that with deion. I also believe that tom brady and branch (same with brady/welker) have great coordination with each other... but we could use a long-range threat(chad ochocinco is really sucking *** for us).

    Yes **** the jets. We should have beaten them in the playoffs..... if we did, we most likely make the SB (we own the steelers).
     
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  24. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thanks for the analysis!Good to know what a Patriots fan thinks, an honest one at that. Personally, I think Brady has a SB left, maybe not this year, but I think he's far from done. Again, good luck this Sunday and may you slaughter the Jets.
     
  25. packerfan4ever

    packerfan4ever Cheesehead

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    I'm not a big Brady fan okay not a Brady fan at all but I do know he is a very good q.b why because he does know how to win games,the s.b he made sure his kicker could make the 3 points in those games if he couldn't get a touch down,he has a few tricks that he uses to this day,and the d falls for why he is very good at it,the one I'm speaking of is where he turns his back like he is handing the ball off,but he still has it and the d-line is after the r.b wham Brady throws ball t.d or big yards,he may not rush a lot but he has smarts A-rod is the same way he is not going to throw if he knows the ball wont go where it needs too,I may not be a brady fan but I do respect his talent.But A-rod I always new he would be good for the pack.
     

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