2022 Salary Cap Riddle/Thread/Discussion

[Pokerbrat2000]

Honestly quite a few of these could be active game day guys....my most likely guys at this moment with so many unknowns:

Most likely: Jack Heflin - Lancaster leaving, Lowry's high salary and Keke cut - door flew open for a guy that saw some, but ultimately just threatened for a spot this year.
Likely: Michael Menet - Patrick contract up, Jenkins injured and the only other center Hanson never really showing promise and only active due to desperate need at center. I loved Menet out of college as a Day 3 prospect and could see him grab ahold of this role here.
Gotta Chance: Kabion Ento - He could end up being the Yosh of 2022...he has been a build in progress for years and with Sullivan/King/Douglas ALL without contracts in 2022 this could be the year Ento gets his chance and break.

Obviously guys like Ladarius Hamilton and cuts of Zadarius and what not make his door A LOT WIDER...OR Benkert with a Rodgers trade could see massive upgrades in chances. While we all realize Rico Gafford and Chris Blair have got to be salivating at the present rostered WRs in the building for their chance.

Could be. I am going to take a wild stab at it and say that between the end of the season and cutdown day in Sept., we have about a 25-40% roster turnover.

 

[tynimiller]

Could be. I am going to take a wild stab at it and say that between the end of the season and cutdown day in Sept., we have about a 25-40% roster turnover.

All depends, there is going to be a ton of low grade cheap roster guys like this list if we try and hang on one more year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

All depends, there is going to be a ton of low grade cheap roster guys like this list if we try and hang on one more year.

Which is why I think it is best to just go into rebuild now and what my 25-40% roster turn assumes. To try and keep both Rodgers and Adams, guts your team or completely over leverages it for the coming 4 or so years.

 

[tynimiller]

Which is why I think it is best to just go into rebuild now and what my 25-40% roster turn assumes. To try and keep both Rodgers and Adams, guts your team or completely over leverages it for the coming 4 or so years.

The fallout from it I think extends further than 4 even....shoot in 2024 we are still paying for the services of Lowry, Sullivan, King, Lewis, Tonyan, Campbell, Crosby, Turner even if none of them resign this year or such already. Imagine if we start pushing further....want to get even more sad, check out the guys we are still paying in 2025:

King, Lowry, Tonyan, Crosby, Sullivan, Campbell for a total of around: $2.02Million

Want to feel better, 2026 is the first year atm we are not paying for the services of someone that is no longer here in 2022.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The fallout from it I think extends further than 4 even....shoot in 2024 we are still paying for the services of Lowry, Sullivan, King, Lewis, Tonyan, Campbell, Crosby, Turner even if none of them resign this year or such already. Imagine if we start pushing further....want to get even more sad, check out the guys we are still paying in 2025:

King, Lowry, Tonyan, Crosby, Sullivan, Campbell for a total of around: $2.02Million

Want to feel better, 2026 is the first year atm we are not paying for the services of someone that is no longer here in 2022.

Indeed and it is obvious that you have studied this much closer than I have. But for me its just basic economics and math, you can't keep pushing financial obligations out into the future, when you have a fixed/variable rate spending amount. I'm just glad that the NFL doesn't "charge" cap interest on our pushed out cap. When you look at the list of cap strapped teams, it is no real surprise that teams that have had a lot of success, like the Packers are in trouble. However, I see a team like the Giants or the Falcons and wonder "how in the heck did they get in cap trouble?" Part of it is the total reduction in the fixed cap ceiling, but the other part, as you alluded to, is pushing money out years ago, that has now just come to haunt them.

Now here is the silver lining and what makes me think that the Packers are going to be just fine. Look at this table for the next 4 years and where the Packers are on it (they climb out of Cap hell). Now keep an eye on the Saints and the Cowboys. Yikes, they are the 2 teams that are in some real cap hell.

NFL 2022 Salary Cap Tracker

A real-time look at the 2022 salary cap totals for each NFL team, including estimated cap space.

www.spotrac.com

 

[tynimiller]

Indeed and it is obvious that you have studied this much closer than I have. But for me its just basic economics and math, you can't keep pushing financial obligations out into the future, when you have a fixed/variable rate spending amount. I'm just glad that the NFL doesn't "charge" cap interest on our pushed out cap. When you look at the list of cap strapped teams, it is no real surprise that teams that have had a lot of success, like the Packers are in trouble. However, I see a team like the Giants or the Falcons and wonder "how in the heck did they get in cap trouble?" Part of it is the total reduction in the fixed cap ceiling, but the other part, as you alluded to, is pushing money out years ago, that has now just come to haunt them.

Now here is the silver lining and what makes me think that the Packers are going to be just fine. Look at this table for the next 4 years and where the Packers are on it (they climb out of Cap hell). Now keep an eye on the Saints and the Cowboys. Yikes, they are the 2 teams that are in some real cap hell.

NFL 2022 Salary Cap Tracker

A real-time look at the 2022 salary cap totals for each NFL team, including estimated cap space.

www.spotrac.com

The reason we climb out of it is we've had to back end load some MEGA contracts either with voided years (Rodgers is biggest) or just massive end of deal contracts (Jones being prime example).

Jones is a deal I'm fine with making, essentially unmoveable for two years, you pray no injury and everyone with half a brain knows the deal is cut after two and won't see the third year.

2021 Hit - $4,464,705 (essentially cannot cut because dead money is $14M)
2022 Hit - $9M (essentially dumb to cut because dead money is $9.75M)
2023 Hit - $19,250,000 but massive savings with dead money only at $6.5M
2024 Hit - $15.25M (dead money at $3.25M)

 

[Pkrjones]

Now here is the silver lining and what makes me think that the Packers are going to be just fine. Look at this table for the next 4 years and where the Packers are on it (they climb out of Cap hell).

Before you get too excited, per Overthecap, even though GB is "out of cap hell" beginning in '23 there's some bad news.

2023 - Only 17 players are signed, even though there are 28 still on the books... 11 with dead money. $118Mil cap space.
2024 - Only 11 players are signed, even though there are 20 still on the books... 9 with dead money. $175.7Mil cap space.
2025 - There are ZERO players under contract at the moment.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The reason we climb out of it is we've had to back end load some MEGA contracts either with voided years (Rodgers is biggest) or just massive end of deal contracts (Jones being prime example).

Jones is a deal I'm fine with making, essentially unmoveable for two years, you pray no injury and everyone with half a brain knows the deal is cut after two and won't see the third year.

2021 Hit - $4,464,705 (essentially cannot cut because dead money is $14M)
2022 Hit - $9M (essentially dumb to cut because dead money is $9.75M)
2023 Hit - $19,250,000 but massive savings with dead money only at $6.5M
2024 Hit - $15.25M (dead money at $3.25M)

Agreed and had Covid not hit and the cap was where it was projected to be, we wouldn't be in such bad shape.

Before you get too excited, per Overthecap, even though GB is "out of cap hell" beginning in '23 there's some bad news.

2023 - Only 17 players are signed, even though there are 28 still on the books... 11 with dead money. $118Mil cap space.
2024 - Only 11 players are signed, even though there are 20 still on the books... 9 with dead money. $175.7Mil cap space.
2025 - There are ZERO players under contract at the moment.

Thanks for the rundown and yes, we are slowly going to climb out of the mess, which is why I really can't foresee how they would be able to keep Rodgers, Adams and enough other players to "go all in", without some really serious cap issues for the next 1-6 years.

Reminds me of someone maxing out all their credit cards. Being set up with a financial consultant that figures a way out of all the credit card debt over the next 4 years. The person arrives home and he/she sees in the mail that they have been approved for another Credit card with a $50K limit. Do they activate it and that big trip they always want to take?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It may not seem like much, but signing and fleshing out spots with the first two options as much as possible vs the last two - can save a team $1M-$2M depending on the number of players. Some of our most experienced PS players to end the season with have not to this point been re-signed to future deals...that includes 5th year David Moore who showed promise late as a returner, fourth year linbacker Kalambayi and DL McIntosh, nor third year guys Kaufusi (TE) and Malone (WR)....few two year guys not signed yet Abdullah Anderson, Ben Braden and Kerrith Whyte

Aside of Anderson (49 snaps) and Braden (4) none of the guys mentioned played a single snap on offense or defense.

Therefore it makes sense to not spend any additional cap space to have any of them on the roster entering the new league year.

Obviously guys like Ladarius Hamilton and cuts of Zadarius and what not make his door A LOT WIDER...OR Benkert with a Rodgers trade could see massive upgrades in chances. While we all realize Rico Gafford and Chris Blair have got to be salivating at the present rostered WRs in the building for their chance.

I highly doubt Benkert, Blair or Gafford will receive significant playing time even if the Packers decide to move on from Rodgers, Adams and others.

The fallout from it I think extends further than 4 even....shoot in 2024 we are still paying for the services of Lowry, Sullivan, King, Lewis, Tonyan, Campbell, Crosby, Turner even if none of them resign this year or such already. Imagine if we start pushing further....want to get even more sad, check out the guys we are still paying in 2025:

King, Lowry, Tonyan, Crosby, Sullivan, Campbell for a total of around: $2.02Million

That's not how it works.

If the Packers move on from some of the players mentioned the total remaining portion of the prorated signing bonus will count against the cap immediately. If the move is made with a post June 1 designation it can be split over the next two years.

Voided years will count against a team's cap immediately as soon as the deal automatically voids.

Let's use Kevin King as an example. His current deal will automatically void on February 22, resulting in a $3 million cap hit counting against the Packers' cap in 2022. There won't be any dead money out of it counting against their cap in future years though.

 

[tynimiller]

I highly doubt Benkert, Blair or Gafford will receive significant playing time even if the Packers decide to move on from Rodgers, Adams and others.

As I don't either. Never would, merely discussing bottom depth guys that have to be excited to see the depleted spot presently is all.

 

[tynimiller]

Let's use Kevin King as an example. His current deal will automatically void on February 22, resulting in a $3 million cap hit counting against the Packers' cap in 2022. There won't be any dead money out of it counting against their cap in future years though.

I'm fully naive to this, but still no one has been able to explain why then to use King does everywhere show his contract included four voided years worth of cap hits? If it is true that all the voided years hit in 2022, why does 2023, 2024 and 2025 even get structured into the contract if no hits actually occur?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm fully naive to this, but still no one has been able to explain why then to use King does everywhere show his contract included four voided years worth of cap hits? If it is true that all the voided years hit in 2022, why does 2023, 2024 and 2025 even get structured into the contract if no hits actually occur?

I will take a stab at this.

Those Cap hits will occur one way or another. They would all hit in 2022, if the Packers don't do anything with King, since his contract automatically voids 23 days before the 22 league year. Now if they work out a deal and extend him, those cap hits can also be extended (or left as they look now).

I think what Captain is basically saying is....Once a guy is no longer on the team, his cap hit(s) come due. If a player is cut post June 1, that cap hit(s) can be divided between the upcoming season and the next.

"Void years" are usually a sneaky way to reduce a cap in the current year, by spreading the full hit out over multiple "fake years", which are years that the player most likely won't be a part of the team.

In the King situation, the Packers resigned him last year to a "5 year deal" worth close to $4.92M/year. But they didn't want that big of a cap hit in 2021, which they would have had by making it a one year deal. So they made the other 4 years voidable and spread last years cap hit out over all 5 years, thus only having $1,929,412 hit the cap last year. So if he is done in GB, they get hit with the $3M they pushed out from last season in 2022.

 

[tynimiller]

I will take a stab at this.

Those Cap hits will occur one way or another. They would all hit in 2022, if the Packers don't do anything with King, since his contract automatically voids 23 days before the 22 league year. Now if they work out a deal and extend him, those cap hits can also be extended (or left as they look now).

I think what Captain is basically saying is....Once a guy is no longer on the team, his cap hit(s) come due. If a player is cut post June 1, that cap hit(s) can be divided between the upcoming season and the next.

"Void years" are usually a sneaky way to reduce a cap in the current year, by spreading the full hit out over multiple "fake years", which are years that the player most likely won't be a part of the team.

In the King situation, the Packers resigned him last year to a "5 year deal" worth close to $4.92M/year. But they didn't want that big of a cap hit in 2021, which they would have had by making it a one year deal. So they made the other 4 years voidable and spread last years cap hit out over all 5 years, thus only having $1,929,412 hit the cap last year.

But Captain also once said those future void years cannot be involved in potential restructures....this sounds like they can, which would be the benefit of working future dead cap hits "into the contract" despite they all hitting at once if no deal is done....that is good news really, but then the question becomes at what time would a deal need done with say King or Sullivan in order to rework future hits and such like outlined?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But Captain also once said those future void years cannot be involved in potential restructures....this sounds like they can, which would be the benefit of working future dead cap hits "into the contract" despite they all hitting at once if no deal is done....that is good news really, but then the question becomes at what time would a deal need done with say King or Sullivan in order to rework future hits and such like outlined?

A good question. I am going to assume that if both King and the Packers agree to keep the current deal in tact, he would be paid very similar to last year and those cap hits would be similar as well. I am not sure on a restructure, if they can include those hits, I would think they can, they did something similar with Rodgers right? However, if that deal is done after the "voidable deadline", then I would say they can't.

Im winging it here ....or maybe it will turn out I am flinging it.

 

[tynimiller]

A good question. I am going to assume that if both King and the Packers agree to keep the current deal in tact, he would be paid very similar to last year and those cap hits would be similar as well. I am not sure on a restructure, if they can include those hits, I would think they can, they did something similar with Rodgers right? However, if that deal is done after the "voidable deadline", then I would say they can't.

Im winging it here ....or maybe it will turn out I am flinging it.

We just need the league year to end and then watch and see what happens with those future "hits" or if one of them is resigned what happens? New territory for me paying attention to void years.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We just need the league year to end and then watch and see what happens with those future "hits" or if one of them is resigned what happens? New territory for me paying attention to void years.

One thing I am about 99.9% sure of, once a player is no longer under contract with the team, any cap hits that were pushed out into the future, become due. Only slight relief from that is in the case when it comes post June 1st and then it can be split between years.

Same if a player is traded. They don't trade those dead cap hits, they come due. What they do "get rid of", is any non-guaranteed money that existed in the contract and not earned (workout and roster bonuses, yearly salary, etc.

 

[tynimiller]

One thing I am about 99.9% sure of, once a player is no longer under contract with the team, any cap hits that were pushed out into the future, become due. Only slight relief from that is in the case when it comes post June 1st and then it can be split between years.

Same if a player is traded. They don't trade those dead cap hits, they come due. What they do "get rid of", is any non-guaranteed money that existed in the contract and not earned (workout and roster bonuses, yearly salary, etc.

Correct as I understand it as well.

 

[Poppa San]

Correct as I understand it as well.

AIUI any unpaid guaranteed money such as next year's guaranteed salary goes with the player to the new team. Only money that has already been paid stays on the old team's cap. Explains why sometimes roster bonuses are delayed if trade negotiations are underway. Who pays and takes the hit is then being negotiated as part of the compensation.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm fully naive to this, but still no one has been able to explain why then to use King does everywhere show his contract included four voided years worth of cap hits? If it is true that all the voided years hit in 2022, why does 2023, 2024 and 2025 even get structured into the contract if no hits actually occur?

The voided years are solely added to reduce the cap hit during a short period of time, mostly a single season.

Let's take a look at what the Packers could do with Adams by adding void years to basically a one-year contract. Just to be clear, that is meant to be an example, I'm not suggesting the team should actually make a deal like that.

Here we go. The Packers could sign Adams to a 1-year, $25 million deal without any void years, taking a cap hit of $25 million in 2022. They could offer him a deal paying him a base salary of $1 million in 2022 and a signing bonus of $24 million and add void years (up to a maximum four) to reduce the cap hit for next year though.

Here's how the cap hit in 2022 would look like with void years added:

One void year: $13 million
Two yoid years: $9 million
Three void years: $7 million
Four void years: $5.8 million

But, as soon as the deal voids, the remaining prorated portion of the signing bonus would count against the cap immediately. There's no way to designate those hits as a post June 1 release either as the deal automatically voids before the start of the new league year.

Therefore the suggested deal for Adams would result in dead money counting against the Packers cap in 2023 as follows:

One void year: $12 million
Two void years: $16 million
Three void years: $18 million
Four void years: $19.2 million

I have to admit that I don't know if there's any way to spread out that cap hit if an extension is signed before the deal voids but I actually don't believe that's possible.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The voided years are solely added to reduce the cap hit during a short period of time, mostly a single season.

Good explanation. One question I can't find an answer to, maybe you know?

So let's go back to King. His contract was set up as a "dummy 5 year deal", since it was 1 year with 4 voidable. Can the team decide to enforce the contract and not void those 4 years? Or does it require both team and player to agree to that? Or is it just a dead end, can't change it, it voids automatically?

For instance, if King suddenly turned into a lock down corner in 2021, could the Packers have kept the contract and King would have to honor it? Or can King void those 4 years and hit free agency?

 

[sschind]

Good explanation. One question I can't find an answer to, maybe you know?

So let's go back to King. His contract was set up as a "dummy 5 year deal", since it was 1 year with 4 voidable. Can the team decide to enforce the contract and not void those 3 years? Or does it require both team and player to agree to that? For instance, if King suddenly turned into a lock down corner in 2021, could the Packers have kept the contract and King would have to honor it? Or can King void those 3 years and hit free agency?

That contract automatically becomes void on a certain date and King becomes a free agent. There is nothing the team can do to change that. If the Packers want to keep him they have to sign him to a new deal before that ordeal with him as a free agent after that date.

There was no salary alloted in those void years so essentially if they could enforce the contract he would be playing for free.

I think, and this is what captain was referring to in his last paragraph, if they do sign him to another deal those cap hits in those voided years become attached to the new contract in their respective years. In other words any new contract stands on its own and the 750k gets added on in each year of the new contract and gets rolled up just like normal if the new deal ends before the old one does.

I would not be opposed to the idea of bringing King back for the right price.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Took me a second to figure your calculations but I got it.

I think if they sign an extension those cap hits become tied to the original void years and can't be moved. Any new money is added to those cap hits. I think that is why you still see cap hits for guys like King in 22,23,24,25. Those years are technically still on the books

That contract automatically becomes void on a certain date and King becomes a free agent. There is nothing the team can do to change that. If the Packers want to keep him they have to sign him to a new deal before that ordeal with him as a free agent after that date.

There was no salary alloted in those void years so essentially if they could enforce the contract he would be playing for free.

Thanks, makes sense. Really goes to show you just how willing the NFL is to allow teams to massage the cap numbers. Reminds me of a gambler wanting to bet on one big payoff, takes out a bigger than normal 5 year loan and knows fully well that he gets his legs broken if its not fully paid with interest, after the year is up.

 

[tynimiller]

Still nothing has made sense for voiding years beyond one because they all come due then anyways.

 

[Pkrjones]

Still nothing has made sense for voiding years beyond one because they all come due then anyways.

The void years allow a signing bonus to be spread out for the duration of the contract. Example: player receives a $10Mil signing bonus for 1 year salaried contract totalling $12Mil, with 4 void years. Player gets $12Mil for the 1 year of service.
Year 1 = $2Mil salary, $2Mil pro-rated SB. Cap hit of year 1 = $4Mil.
Year 2 = $0 Salary, $2Mil pro-rated SB. Cap hit of year 2 = $8Mil.
Year 3 = $0 Salary, $2Mil pro-rated SB.
Year 4 = $0 Salary, $2Mil pro-rated SB.
Year 5 = $0 Salary, $2Mil pro-rated SB.

Your way, with only 1 void year...
Year 1 = $2Mil salary, $5Mil pro-rated SB. Cap hit of year 1 = $7Mil
Year 2 = $0 Salary, $5Mil pro-rated SB. Cap hit of year 2 = $5Mil

 

[swhitset]

Still nothing has made sense for voiding years beyond one because they all come due then anyways.

you have to think of it in terms of the initial year …not the year it voids… if you add multiple void years that initial signing signing bonus in year 1 only hits the cap at a number divisible by the number of void years added. If you only added one void year it would only reduce the cap hit of the bonus in half. It is simply a gimmick to get the cap hit down in that first year even though it is all most likely coming due a year later.