2023 Salary cap riddle

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Are you under the impression that repeating your opinion makes it true?

Double standards, once again?

2017 and 2018 we had a losing record with Rodgers starting.

You realize Rodgers missed nine full games and was injured early in another one in 2017, don't you? In 2018, McCarthy had lost the locker room resulting in a losing season. Rodgers most likely is at least partly to blame for that though.

Haven't seen this mentioned anywhere in this forum, maybe I'm missing something. If not, Darnell Savage's contract was restructured yesterday, which in turn created $5.5M in cap space, helping with the Love extension. Found this article on PackersWire


With the Packers not being a contender this season that move makes no sense at all in my opinion.

Yeah I'm starting to think the Packers' MVP all along has been Russ Ball. The Savage restructure and the creative extension of Love's contract were very team friendly.

Please let me know what was positive about restructuring Savage's contract to add four void years?

Yup and the important thing:

"Restructuring Savage’s deal created the cap savings necessary to extend the contract of quarterback Jordan Love, who got an extra year added to his deal on Tuesday."

There's no truth to it by any means. The extension for Love only added $3.1 million of cap hit for this season, the Packers could have afforded to fit that under their cap without restructuring Savage's deal.

The way Savage's deal was restructured was to add 4 void years & making his base salary at $1.08Mil & the remaining $6.82Mil a bonus spread over 5 years ($1.364mil/yr). This may make him much more trade-able (post 6/01) with his new team absorbing $5.456Mil as '24 dead cap (if I'm interpreting OTC's breakdown correctly).

GB has gotten an additional $5.456Mil cap relief in '23 regardless if he stays or is traded after 6/01.

The Packers restructuring Savage's deal would actually result in more dead money counting against their cap if they end up trading him. It might it more appealing for a team to acquire him as they would only be the on the hook for his base salary of $1.08 million if the move happens before the start of the season.

That’s just not true. If the Packers Defense all by its lonesome can reach their ceiling (or very near) By themselves they could be a Top5 Defense in that 18-19 points ballpark.
You don’t need an elite level QB to Win lots of games (call it Top3-4)
IF your Defense is holding opponents regularly.
You need a ST unit that gives you above average Field position and gives their opponents worse than average position.
You need an Offense that is consistent and dual faceted in Run n Pass and that does turn the ball over at an alarming rate.

Unfortunately I don't expect the defense to turn into an elite unit this upcoming season though.
 

AmishMafia

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You realize Rodgers missed nine full games and was injured early in another one in 2017, don't you? In 2018, McCarthy had lost the locker room resulting in a losing season. Rodgers most likely is at least partly to blame for that though.
Yes. Add up his starts and he has more losses than wins during that span. Rodgers was the team leader, losing the locker room was primarily Rodgers fault.
 

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It is harder to win a SB without an elite QB. But it has been done. And yes, you can be competitive without an elite QB if you have defense and a running game. Ask the great Kent Dilfer or even the dynamic Rex Grossman. Lombardi rode through 1967 with a banged up Bart Starr and a decimated backfield because of defense.
I agree that a team can win with a superior D. And it seems most SB winners have top 5 Ds, although that's a guess.

But to hold an opponent to 17-20 points or less, game after game, is a tall order. Yeah guys like Dilfer and a totally ineffective Peyton Manning have SB rings because of the play of their D, but it doesn't happen often. Most SB winners have franchise QBs, along with an exceptional D.

As for STs, well the Packers won their sole SB with Favre largely due to exceptional STs play. The kick returner Desmond Howard was the game MVP. But that's an outlier.
 
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It is harder to win a SB without an elite QB. But it has been done. And yes, you can be competitive without an elite QB if you have defense and a running game. Ask the great Kent Dilfer or even the dynamic Rex Grossman. Lombardi rode through 1967 with a banged up Bart Starr and a decimated backfield because of defense.
Yes. It is best to have an Elite QB. However Give me an above average, efficient QB who plays better as the competition gets tougher. Verses a QB who is stupendous in Regular season against average to poor teams. Go no further than 2022 Dak Prescott or Tony Romo. Really both Great QB’s until they get under pressure and they crack. Another one is Kirk Cousins. Some guys rise up under pressure, but many falter when under the pressure cooker
 
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Heyjoe4

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Yes. It is best to have an Elite QB. However Give me an above average, efficient QB who plays better as the competition gets tougher. Verses a QB who is stupendous in Regular season against average to poor teams. Go no further than 2022 Dak Prescott or Tony Romo. Really both Great QB’s until they get under pressure and they crack. Another one is Kirk Cousins. Some guys rise up under pressure, but many falter when under the pressure cooker
I'm just looking for Love to show some promise - to get better as the season goes along. Someone else commented they don't expect much from this D, or rather that it wouldn't be a highly ranked unit. Well, with all the first round picks, add Van Ness, I expect them to perform at a very high level. Even a clown like Barry should get something out of them.

All in all, I don't remember the last time I so looked forward to a season. Rodgers is taking Cobb and Lazard (I guess Lazard will be a $44 mil in-line blocker), guys that just don't fit in with a young and growing team. I do wonder what the Jets' GM is smoking to let Cobb take a roster spot. Oh well, not our concern.

And hey, expectations are just resentments waiting to happen. I'm thinking the team will go 6-11, maybe 7-10. I also think it's going to be a fun team to watch. There is finally some youth in GB. After losing four straight NFCCGs, it's time for a change.
 
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Rodgers was the team leader, losing the locker room was primarily Rodgers fault.

While Rodgers definitely played a role I think McCarthy is the one mostly to blame for losing the locker room.

All in all, I don't remember the last time I so looked forward to a season. Rodgers is taking Cobb and Lazard (I guess Lazard will be a $44 mil in-line blocker), guys that just don't fit in with a young and growing team. I do wonder what the Jets' GM is smoking to let Cobb take a roster spot. Oh well, not our concern.

Lazard isn't good enough to be a #1 receiver but he's a decent #2 or #3. He had 60 receptions for 788 yards and six TDs last season, he will definitely be more than an inline blocker for the Jets. While Cobb shouldn't be considered a starter at this point in his career anymore teams could do much worse than having him as the #5 on the depth chart.
 

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I'm just looking for Love to show some promise - to get better as the season goes along. Someone else commented they don't expect much from this D, or rather that it wouldn't be a highly ranked unit. Well, with all the first round picks, add Van Ness, I expect them to perform at a very high level. Even a clown like Barry should get something out of them.

All in all, I don't remember the last time I so looked forward to a season. Rodgers is taking Cobb and Lazard (I guess Lazard will be a $44 mil in-line blocker), guys that just don't fit in with a young and growing team. I do wonder what the Jets' GM is smoking to let Cobb take a roster spot. Oh well, not our concern.

And hey, expectations are just resentments waiting to happen. I'm thinking the team will go 6-11, maybe 7-10. I also think it's going to be a fun team to watch. There is finally some youth in GB. After losing four straight NFCCGs, it's time for a change.
Very realistic.
 

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Very realistic.
Thanks. I can only speak for myself, but I think most fans gave up on the Rodgers era after the playoff loss to the Niners at Lambeau at the end of the 2021 season. Last season was anti-climactic. The air was out of the balloon and it was time to do something different.

Like him or not, Gluten delivered. I thought this draft was solid for the O, and last year was solid for the D. This year will also be the first true test of MLF's abilities to lead a team without a HOF QB. Now MLF shouldn't be judged based on wins and losses this year, but rather on progress. With all these young players on both sides of the ball, I expect up and down play in the first half.

So if MLF wants to show he is the real deal, the team will slowly but surely get better. And if that D doesn't hold their end of the bargain, then MLF has to fix it.

I think it will be fun to watch.
 

milani

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Thanks. I can only speak for myself, but I think most fans gave up on the Rodgers era after the playoff loss to the Niners at Lambeau at the end of the 2021 season. Last season was anti-climactic. The air was out of the balloon and it was time to do something different.

Like him or not, Gluten delivered. I thought this draft was solid for the O, and last year was solid for the D. This year will also be the first true test of MLF's abilities to lead a team without a HOF QB. Now MLF shouldn't be judged based on wins and losses this year, but rather on progress. With all these young players on both sides of the ball, I expect up and down play in the first half.

So if MLF wants to show he is the real deal, the team will slowly but surely get better. And if that D doesn't hold their end of the bargain, then MLF has to fix it.

I think it will be fun to watch.
This is the scenario that separates the Belichicks from the rest of the world. As much as I do not want to say it Pete Carroll did a decent job last season without Russell Wilson. Belichick almost beat us with a 3rd string QB. It truly does test coaches.
 
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I do wonder what the Jets' GM is smoking to let Cobb take a roster spot. Oh well, not our concern.
The Jets did trade off a Slot WR and 3rd Rounder for a #42 overall.
Lazard isn't good enough to be a #1 receiver but he's a decent #2 or #3. He had 60 receptions for 788 yards and six TDs last season, he will definitely be more than an inline blocker for the Jets. While Cobb shouldn't be considered a starter at this point in his career anymore teams could do much worse than having him as the #5 on the depth chart.
yeah there’s nothing wrong with depth. It’s inevitable a WR will go down at some point and that often lifts the WR5 to a WR4 etc. It’s very valuable having him even at this stage of his career. He could very well put up 400+ yards and 3-4 TD’s. Even GB got their $$ worth from Cobb 2nd time around
 
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Heyjoe4

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The Jets did trade off a Slot WR and 3rd Rounder for a #42 overall.

yeah there’s nothing wrong with depth. It’s inevitable a WR will go down at some point and that often lifts the WR5 to a WR4 etc. It’s very valuable having him even at this stage of his career. He could very well put up 400+ yards and 3-4 TD’s. Even GB got their $$ worth from Cobb 2nd time around
I think Lazard is a #3 or #4 WR on the Jets, unless Rodgers insists he gets more snaps. He piled up yards with the Packers last year because he was the only WR with any real experience. But he can catch and block and will provide solid depth in NY. He is a good WR. At $44 mil, that's too rich IMO. But top FAs always seem to get paid more than they're worth. Anyway, good for him. I like the guy and he was a solid player for GB.

As for Cobb, yeah I see where his experience and skill could also help a team. But aren't there better choices? I don't know the answer to that so maybe he is the best choice, and as you note, they need another slot receiver.

My reading of this is that the Jets are doing what the Packers did the last few years, adding or keeping players to please Rodgers. I'd rather the GM and HC put the team together. Again, Rodgers is now the Jets' concern. It will be interesting to see if they add Lewis as well. And even with Cobb taking up a roster spot, the Jets are a solid and talented team.
 
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Heyjoe4

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This is the scenario that separates the Belichicks from the rest of the world. As much as I do not want to say it Pete Carroll did a decent job last season without Russell Wilson. Belichick almost beat us with a 3rd string QB. It truly does test coaches.
Yeah I'm not a fan personally of BB or Carroll, but these guys win a lot of games and are very good HCs. In NE, they were shuffling players around Brady almost every year. But BB combined with Brady made the utmost of the talent they had. 6 Lombardi Trophies says it all.

And Carroll almost always has a competitive team, even in lean years. I don't think they knew how well trading Wilson would turn out. If they play it right, they'll be back in the SB hunt sooner rather than later.
 

milani

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The Jets did trade off a Slot WR and 3rd Rounder for a #42 overall.

yeah there’s nothing wrong with depth. It’s inevitable a WR will go down at some point and that often lifts the WR5 to a WR4 etc. It’s very valuable having him even at this stage of his career. He could very well put up 400+ yards and 3-4 TD’s. Even GB got their $$ worth from Cobb 2nd time around
That NFC East division is so competitive right now in such away that is unlike the last 25 years. All 4 teams are capable if getting in the playoffs. One player may not win a SB but he could mean playing in January.
 
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That NFC East division is so competitive right now in such away that is unlike the last 25 years. All 4 teams are capable if getting in the playoffs. One player may not win a SB but he could mean playing in January.
That’s true. As I mentioned elsewhere, the chances of an injury at WR at some juncture is real. Having 4-5 players that could start on many teams is preferred. A big factor that separates Playoff caliber teams is health. The deeper the Roster the better chance they don’t miss a beat.
We know it all too well. A big part of GB’s success in the playoff run to a SB was the emergence of backup RB James Starks and his 330 All Purpose Postseason production.
 

milani

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That’s true. As I mentioned elsewhere, the chances of an injury at WR at some juncture is real. Having 4-5 players that could start on many teams is preferred. A big factor that separates Playoff caliber teams is health. The deeper the Roster the better chance they don’t miss a beat.
We know it all too well. A big part of GB’s success in the playoff run to a SB was the emergence of backup RB James Starks and his 330 All Purpose Postseason production.
That was a surprise. TT took a big risk. When Ryan Grant went down in the first game we were left with just Brandon Jackson. He opted to do nothing and wait and see when he had a chance to make a deal. Beast Mode was available. It turned out Starks helped but it was very risky. We were one iota from being eliminated just to make the playoffs. But once there things happened. In hindsight it was still not a smart maneuver by Thompson. No guarantee Starks would physically come back from injury. In the mean time Finley went down as well and a boat load on defense. The number on IR was in double digits. And even Rodgers suffered a concussion and missed 6 quarters. So we were one play from having 2010 end. Now if Gute can only be that fortunate.
 

Heyjoe4

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That was a surprise. TT took a big risk. When Ryan Grant went down in the first game we were left with just Brandon Jackson. He opted to do nothing and wait and see when he had a chance to make a deal. Beast Mode was available. It turned out Starks helped but it was very risky. We were one iota from being eliminated just to make the playoffs. But once there things happened. In hindsight it was still not a smart maneuver by Thompson. No guarantee Starks would physically come back from injury. In the mean time Finley went down as well and a boat load on defense. The number on IR was in double digits. And even Rodgers suffered a concussion and missed 6 quarters. So we were one play from having 2010 end. Now if Gute can only be that fortunate.
Good reminder of how many things can go wrong (and right) on the way to a SB title. I vaguely remember that Marshawn Lynch was available. I do recall he ended up in Seattle and helped them win a playoff game, but can't recall the year. I think the Ravens won the SB that year, so it wasn't 2011. I'm off topic.

Anyway, there are a lot of moving parts. I'm not being disingenuous - I'm glad I'm a Packer fan and not a Jets' fan. The Packers have no place to go but up (given low expectations/uncertainty) for Love, and only SB-victory aspirations for Jets' fans now that the Anointed One has arrived in NYC.

And the 2023 season will end as BB once said all seasons end - with one winner and 31 plane crashes. I'm not big on predictions this early, but have every reason to believe KC will win, again.
 

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That was a surprise. TT took a big risk. When Ryan Grant went down in the first game we were left with just Brandon Jackson. He opted to do nothing and wait and see when he had a chance to make a deal. Beast Mode was available. It turned out Starks helped but it was very risky. We were one iota from being eliminated just to make the playoffs. But once there things happened. In hindsight it was still not a smart maneuver by Thompson. No guarantee Starks would physically come back from injury. In the mean time Finley went down as well and a boat load on defense. The number on IR was in double digits. And even Rodgers suffered a concussion and missed 6 quarters. So we were one play from having 2010 end. Now if Gute can only be that fortunate.
Pure supposition on your part. Do you really think Thompson didn't have a very good idea of where Starks was physically?
 

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Pure supposition on your part. Do you really think Thompson didn't have a very good idea of where Starks was physically?
He only knew what he was told by the medical staff and Starks himself. Starks came out of Buffalo. He was not known for physical strength and durability. And he did not face the competition in college as the better backs. Now with that Starks played well and some of that could be attributed to our line. And Starks did not play until the season was half over. We lost several critical and close games at that point largely due to a weak running game. TT was too conservative. Back in 2005 we lost Jevon Walker for the season in week 1 for the season and he did not go after anyone of significance. Gute would have pulled the trigger in either case win or lose.
 

milani

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Good reminder of how many things can go wrong (and right) on the way to a SB title. I vaguely remember that Marshawn Lynch was available. I do recall he ended up in Seattle and helped them win a playoff game, but can't recall the year. I think the Ravens won the SB that year, so it wasn't 2011. I'm off topic.

Anyway, there are a lot of moving parts. I'm not being disingenuous - I'm glad I'm a Packer fan and not a Jets' fan. The Packers have no place to go but up (given low expectations/uncertainty) for Love, and only SB-victory aspirations for Jets' fans now that the Anointed One has arrived in NYC.

And the 2023 season will end as BB once said all seasons end - with one winner and 31 plane crashes. I'm not big on predictions this early, but have every reason to believe KC will win, again.
The irony was that in Week 2 of 2010 after winning a squeaker in Philly the Bills and Beast were coming to Lambeau and a lot of talk on radio and the boards was that the Bills were looking to make a deal since they were not going anywhere that season. Now I do not know if Gute would have made a deal. It was a different time. But I believe he would have tried. TT had a chance to get Tony Gonzalez when we desperately needed help at TE but he punted. That was who he was.
 

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The irony was that in Week 2 of 2010 after winning a squeaker in Philly the Bills and Beast were coming to Lambeau and a lot of talk on radio and the boards was that the Bills were looking to make a deal since they were not going anywhere that season. Now I do not know if Gute would have made a deal. It was a different time. But I believe he would have tried. TT had a chance to get Tony Gonzalez when we desperately needed help at TE but he punted. That was who he was.
Lynch had a really bad reputation so I'm not sure that Thompson would have ever even entertained the idea of adding Lynch.
 
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Well. The Cap Riddle should get solved pretty quickly from what I can see. Now the Riddle is on the Jets. Rodgers contract starts attractive now, but gets ugly pretty quickly.

The only riddle we’ll have next season is which high caliber FA signings will be playing in GB
 
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Like him or not, Gluten delivered.

What exactly has Gutekunst delivered so far? This upcoming season will go a long way in figuring out if he's a good general manager or was solely riding the coattails of a HOF quarterback.


I think Lazard is a #3 or #4 WR on the Jets, unless Rodgers insists he gets more snaps.

Lazard is definitely a decent #3 wide receiver. If he ends up fourth on the depth chart with the Jets they would have a pretty good corps.

As for Cobb, yeah I see where his experience and skill could also help a team. But aren't there better choices? I don't know the answer to that so maybe he is the best choice, and as you note, they need another slot receiver.

You need to understand that Cobb won't earn a lot of money and will most likely end up as the fifth receiver on the Jets' depth chart. I highly doubt there would be a lot of better options available to fill that role.

Good reminder of how many things can go wrong (and right) on the way to a SB title. I vaguely remember that Marshawn Lynch was available. I do recall he ended up in Seattle and helped them win a playoff game, but can't recall the year. I think the Ravens won the SB that year, so it wasn't 2011. I'm off topic.

Lynch went beast mode against the Saints in the 2010 playoffs, the year the Packers won the Super Bowl.

Pure supposition on your part. Do you really think Thompson didn't have a very good idea of where Starks was physically?

There was no way for Thompson to know Starks would have such an impact in the postseason though.
 

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What exactly has Gutekunst delivered so far? This upcoming season will go a long way in figuring out if he's a good general manager or was solely riding the coattails of a HOF quarterback.

Disagree quite strongly. His drafts and FA addition hits have illustrated at worst he is an above average GM...none of those items change due to #12.
 

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I think Gute has shown a better than average propensity all things considered. FA acquisitions and letting some go. Moving around the draft board, and has picked some really good players. Made mostly good use of salary cap despite being in some pretty tough positions.

he's also had some stinkers, like all of them do.

I think going forward is going to say more about our coaching staff than the GM himself. I think MLF might be a great offensive mind, but i'm not convinced he has the stones to be a great head coach. and unlike Capers who I thought was a really good defensive coach given some really crappy situations to coach big games in, our current guys do less with more than almost anyone it seems.
 

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