Vikings studs n duds

[chemist]

With Dart and a decent coach they could get beyond the blue horizon.

What you wrote about the giants may come true but i didnt really write that post to sing praises to the giants. I wrote it more for us. The giants game signaled to me that there was a change in the wind. That our sails had unfurled and we were now motoring along with the wind at our backs.
I know it is just one game, but to me it is THE game!
Just like the first game of the season vs the lions was just one game it signaled to me what we would be capable of this year. After going thru the first half of the season dealing with all the miscues, all the injuries, all the experimentation, I now feel the giants game is signaling that we are ready to explode, ready to fire on all cylinders. We shall see.

 

[tynimiller]

Oh it doesn’t bother me saying that at all, but I’ve studied up on him so pretty comfortable there. Although I think Montgomery gets more hype than he deserves. So imo we’re talking about a slightly overrated player there vs. a slightly underrated player. I said the exact thing about Justin fields and a few in here ridiculed me for that so I’m already batting .1000! Once you’ve been a Bear it’s like a curse.

Listen. Fans like yourself are always MUCH quicker to give up on a player than the actual team is. Funny story today listening to an analysis of Christian Watson being quote “the best hands guy on the team” THAT drew a chuckle from me. I similarly defended him when many in here were hyper critical of his college high drops season (%). Yet very few considered his target count was very low. Kinda hard to get things going with such a tiny sample. Now you’ve got some NFL aficionado saying he our best hands guy. Just total full circle. Shows you what casual drive by brand fans know.

Put this on record. But promise to remind me either way. There’s a 4 to 1 chance Marshawn Lloyd is at minimum a RB2 while on his Rookie contract vs him being asked to leave (straight out cut) like you’re suggesting.

IF Lloyd were healthy I guarantee you there would have been games this year where Wilson was the back not dressing...Brooks is immensely too valuable for third down protection plays and Lloyd is our second most dynamic running back.

IF Lloyd were healthy I really think there is a world where the $8M saved by walking from Jacobs after this season actually elevates in being driven by logic.....

Lloyd's injury woes IMO has cemented Jacobs is here minimum through 2026, Wilson played his way for sure into getting a tender to stay as well....

 

[tynimiller]

With Dart and a decent coach they could get beyond the blue horizon.

The Giants I've said all season is a much better team than the record says....consider if you will the following:

They were up 37-34 against Dallas with 14 seconds left....lost

They were up 14-3 against Saints in the 2nd....lost

They were up 26-8 with 5:19 left in the final quarter against the FREAKING Broncos.....lost

They were up 20-10 against the Bears with 3:58 left in the fourth....lost

They were up 27-17 with 10:57 left against Detroit....lost


I'll be honest for a moment and provide a take many will disagree with but I think Giants and Bears on nuetral site would split games if you had them play 10 games. I see them equally as potent and equally young still figuring out their way. Difference is Bears win the close ones this year and Giants faulter...

 

[milani]

The Giants I've said all season is a much better team than the record says....consider if you will the following:

They were up 37-34 against Dallas with 14 seconds left....lost

They were up 14-3 against Saints in the 2nd....lost

They were up 26-8 with 5:19 left in the final quarter against the FREAKING Broncos.....lost

They were up 20-10 against the Bears with 3:58 left in the fourth....lost

They were up 27-17 with 10:57 left against Detroit....lost


I'll be honest for a moment and provide a take many will disagree with but I think Giants and Bears on nuetral site would split games if you had them play 10 games. I see them equally as potent and equally young still figuring out their way. Difference is Bears win the close ones this year and Giants faulter...

All winnable games. And I think it goes back to the HC.

 

[chemist]

The Giants I've said all season is a much better team than the record says....consider if you will the following:

They were up 37-34 against Dallas with 14 seconds left....lost

They were up 14-3 against Saints in the 2nd....lost

They were up 26-8 with 5:19 left in the final quarter against the FREAKING Broncos.....lost

They were up 20-10 against the Bears with 3:58 left in the fourth....lost

They were up 27-17 with 10:57 left against Detroit....lost


I'll be honest for a moment and provide a take many will disagree with but I think Giants and Bears on nuetral site would split games if you had them play 10 games. I see them equally as potent and equally young still figuring out their way. Difference is Bears win the close ones this year and Giants faulter...

And thats why I feel the giants game was a big deal for us. It got us to shake off the cob webs and push us in the right direction.

 

[tynimiller]

All winnable games. And I think it goes back to the HC.

They fired the DC which is a good start.

 

[chemist]

The Giants I've said all season is a much better team than the record says....consider if you will the following:

They were up 37-34 against Dallas with 14 seconds left....lost

They were up 14-3 against Saints in the 2nd....lost

They were up 26-8 with 5:19 left in the final quarter against the FREAKING Broncos.....lost

They were up 20-10 against the Bears with 3:58 left in the fourth....lost

They were up 27-17 with 10:57 left against Detroit....lost


I'll be honest for a moment and provide a take many will disagree with but I think Giants and Bears on nuetral site would split games if you had them play 10 games. I see them equally as potent and equally young still figuring out their way. Difference is Bears win the close ones this year and Giants faulter...

And that denver game was ridiculous

 

[PikeBadger]

I certainly understand the logic that we should play it safe, keep the clock moving, play the "low-risk" option and ride it out.

Yes, we could have a tipped INT. We could see Love get sacked and hurt. We could have our WRs drop three passes in a row and run virtually no clock and save the opponent their time outs. These are all things that COULD happen. The trouble is that IMO sometimes we come at it with an approach that's so cautious that it feels like we're almost assuming these things WILL happen if we don't err on the side of caution. I am not saying that we should just throw caution into the wind, but at the same time I don't think this sort of "worst-case scenario" preparation/planning is really an approach you see a ton from championship-caliber teams.

And of course there is an argument the opposite direction as well. This year, we are losing fumbles* at a higher rate than throwing interceptions, and we have a higher success rate on passing plays than on running ones - we are *more likely* to keep the chains moving and *less likely* to turn over possession when we go more pass-heavy vs run.
So of course there are merits to both approaches. Pass the ball and you might have an incompletion and stop the clock (without using a timeout), but you're more likely to get a fresh set of downs (is that a wash, then?). Run the ball and you keep the clock going and/or use up timeouts, but you're less likely to move the chains (and consequently more likely to either have to take a field goal or punt and give possession back). Both come with their own pros and cons.

*To be fair some of these lost fumbles have come on dropbacks, I acknowledge that. But passing has generally been relatively "low risk" for us this year on the whole.

Passing has been low risk because we aren't a pass happy team anymore. Lots of risk involved goes with passing too much. I agree with LaFleurs decision to shorten the game, get into the locker room and get ready for Detroit. The game was locked up, momentum and clock on our side. Why risk anything at that point for style points? In fact, he could've just as easily put Willis in one series earlier.

 

[PikeBadger]

IF Lloyd were healthy I guarantee you there would have been games this year where Wilson was the back not dressing...Brooks is immensely too valuable for third down protection plays and Lloyd is our second most dynamic running back.

IF Lloyd were healthy I really think there is a world where the $8M saved by walking from Jacobs after this season actually elevates in being driven by logic.....

Lloyd's injury woes IMO has cemented Jacobs is here minimum through 2026, Wilson played his way for sure into getting a tender to stay as well....

Your man crush for Lloyd is remarkable. Almost as remarkable as your disdain for Nixon.

 

[chemist]

Passing has been low risk because we aren't a pass happy team anymore. Lots of risk involved goes with passing too much. I agree with LaFleurs decision to shorten the game, get into the locker room and get ready for Detroit. The game was locked up, momentum and clock on our side. Why risk anything at that point for style points? In fact, he could've just as easily put Willis in one series

After reading the litany of giant losses this year that tynimiller posted most of them occuring late in the game you make a good point. In fact one could argue that when you have any game in this league locked up no need to do anything else except keep it locked up till time runs out. No one knows when luck can change, swing in the opponents favor. Bad luck doesnt have a time table it goes by

 

[tynimiller]

Your man crush for Lloyd is remarkable. Almost as remarkable as your disdain for Nixon.

If you guys remember I wasn't a fan necessarily of the pick truly. I didn't like the short success he'd illustrated in college persay, but more importantly I didn't see it as a needed pick that high. I'm very very much a fan of building RB room from Day 3 or UDFA. He is though a special RB, I just hope we actually get to see it on the field.

While not a fan of the pick I was a Lloyd fan:

MarShawn Lloyd from USC....he is a running back that I think far too many is quiet on...having Caleb Williams as your QB kept the ball out of this VERY SKILLED back more than it would have with arguably anyone else as signal caller...but he still managed to be a 1,000 yard all purpose guy (816 rushing / 232 receiving) and averaged over 7 yards per carry. He is going to be at the Senior Bowl and I truly think and am projecting him to be one of the offensive guys there that will catch the attention he is deserving of. Built nearly identical to Jones, he might actually be the most comparable from a body type, play style and abilities it seems when watching him. Keep an eye and ear out for Lloyd talk, I hear the league loves him far more than a lot of "pundits" are saying and expect he will continue to climb up boards as this is confirmed more and more. I have him with a 4th but is like Estime a borderline 3rd for me.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't know of many games that the offense scores a TD every drive

I never said that they should. What I did say is that when your 3rd down calls are conservative and safe, odds are you have convinced yourself that settling for a FG is just fine.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Within 1-2 weeks we’re about to return a pair of dynamic Offensive weapons. Lloyd and Reed.

I agree that getting Reed back is big and should help the offense. I just can't get excited about Lloyd, just yet. He has a total of 6 NFL carries for 15 yds.

Call me a pessimist, but until a player proves his value on gameday in the NFL, potential is nothing but hype. As of today, Lloyd is just another Packer 3rd round pick that hasn't contributed. I really thought that Kraft finally broke us out of that 3rd round jinx, but I am not so sure of that anymore. Packers 2025 3rd rounder, Savion Williams, looks like a guy that is in over his head most of the time.

 

[gopkrs]

I agree that getting Reed back is big and should help the offense. I just can't get excited about Lloyd, just yet. He has a total of 6 NFL carries for 15 yds.

Call me a pessimist, but until a player proves his value on gameday in the NFL, potential is nothing but hype. As of today, Lloyd is just another Packer 3rd round pick that hasn't contributed. I really thought that Kraft finally broke us out of that 3rd round jinx, but I am not so sure of that anymore. Packers 2025 3rd rounder, Savion Williams, looks like a guy that is in over his head most of the time.

What you say is true. However, I remember one run that made me think he was going to help us. Maybe the run he got hurt on. Still, he's been out a long time and that does not bode well.

 

[tynimiller]

I agree that getting Reed back is big and should help the offense. I just can't get excited about Lloyd, just yet. He has a total of 6 NFL carries for 15 yds.

Call me a pessimist, but until a player proves his value on gameday in the NFL, potential is nothing but hype. As of today, Lloyd is just another Packer 3rd round pick that hasn't contributed. I really thought that Kraft finally broke us out of that 3rd round jinx, but I am not so sure of that anymore. Packers 2025 3rd rounder, Savion Williams, looks like a guy that is in over his head most of the time.

Savion is literally a rookie this year, came from an ecclectic offense style in TCU and yet DESPITE that is contributing already in very limited action.

Now...I will say I find myself wondering back to how mad I was Oronde Gadsen (one of my prospect crushes) was still there in the 3rd and Musgrave between health and struggles worried me....Oronde was my Musgrave 2.0 prospect....and he is TEARING IT UP....if IFs and BUTs were candies and nuts it'd be Christmas all year long though...

 

[Sanguine camper]

IF Lloyd were healthy I guarantee you there would have been games this year where Wilson was the back not dressing...Brooks is immensely too valuable for third down protection plays and Lloyd is our second most dynamic running back.

IF Lloyd were healthy I really think there is a world where the $8M saved by walking from Jacobs after this season actually elevates in being driven by logic.....

Lloyd's injury woes IMO has cemented Jacobs is here minimum through 2026, Wilson played his way for sure into getting a tender to stay as well....

What has Lloyd done to deserve the confidence he's better than Wilson? All Wilson does is deliver when called upon. His first TD agsinst the Vikings was enormously impressive. He was smacked in the backfield and kept his legs churning to power his way in. Most backs would've went down for a loss.

 

[Magooch]

Passing has been low risk because we aren't a pass happy team anymore. Lots of risk involved goes with passing too much. I agree with LaFleurs decision to shorten the game, get into the locker room and get ready for Detroit. The game was locked up, momentum and clock on our side. Why risk anything at that point for style points? In fact, he could've just as easily put Willis in one series earlier.

For me it's not really about style points but rather understanding that there will likely come a point when we NEED those opportunities to turn into 6 points, not 3. There will come a time when we NEED to move the chains and advance the ball rather than burn off the clock.

In this particular match, no, we didn't necessarily *need* to put those extra points on the board or keep moving the chains. But would it not have been beneficial to practice/approach the situation as though we did? It seems like there is this belief amongst some that once we find ourselves in a situation where we NEED those extra points, we'll just be able to "flip the switch" and all of these field goal situations will turn into touchdowns for us. The series where we're 3 yards and a cloud of dust, we'll be able to just decide we're a passing team and start slinging the ball around effortlessly.

In reality, I don't think it is nearly so easy to flip that switch as we might like to believe. If you repeatedly find yourself in these situations and continue to play for field goals and 3rd downs, then when it's crunch time in a do-or-die game, what are you going to default to? I just don't agree with the philosophy that you can "afford" to pass up those opportunities now - when you have the choice - and then be able to execute consistently in those situations when you're in a situation where you *have* to - when that choice is removed. As they say, you are what you repeatedly do...

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Savion is literally a rookie this year, came from an ecclectic offense style in TCU and yet DESPITE that is contributing already in very limited action.

No debating what Savion Williams did in college, he had a decent senior year at TCU. Amari Rodgers was a solid college player at Clemson, but unfortunately it didn't carry over onto the NFL stage.

I hope I am totally wrong on Savion and he can be coached up. So far he has looked tentative and unsure of himself when he has the ball in his hands. His fumble against the Panthers was very costly. Maybe he isn't suited for the Packer offense or the Packer offense has to be better suited to fit his style? He isn't a good runner in traffic, watch him on kickoff returns.

Don't worry @tynimiller, I haven't given up on him, but at this point he hasn't shown me anything that special.

 

[chemist]

For me it's not really about style points but rather understanding that there will likely come a point when we NEED those opportunities to turn into 6 points, not 3. There will come a time when we NEED to move the chains and advance the ball rather than burn off the clock.

In this particular match, no, we didn't necessarily *need* to put those extra points on the board or keep moving the chains. But would it not have been beneficial to practice/approach the situation as though we did? It seems like there is this belief amongst some that once we find ourselves in a situation where we NEED those extra points, we'll just be able to "flip the switch" and all of these field goal situations will turn into touchdowns for us. The series where we're 3 yards and a cloud of dust, we'll be able to just decide we're a passing team and start slinging the ball around effortlessly.

In reality, I don't think it is nearly so easy to flip that switch as we might like to believe. If you repeatedly find yourself in these situations and continue to play for field goals and 3rd downs, then when it's crunch time in a do-or-die game, what are you going to default to? I just don't agree with the philosophy that you can "afford" to pass up those opportunities now - when you have the choice - and then be able to execute consistently in those situations when you're in a situation where you *have* to - when that choice is removed. As they say, you are what you repeatedly do...

Isnt that what practice during the week is all about. You prepare for certain situations
Like 3rd down and whether to go for 6 or 3,
design some plays if you want to try for a TD, practice those plays over and over until have it down pat so when the situation arises in a game everyone knows exactly what you want to do. "Practicing" a play to go for 6 in a real game is inviting a huge amount of risk that is totally unnecessary if you already have the game locked down.

 

[GBkrzygrl]

Stud: Love, OL mostly. Wilson, Parsons, Gary, McManus and defense as a whole.

Dud: Off hand I can't think of any obvious duds. I might have questioned why ML called so many runs, but given Love's injury and the high scoring on our part, I understood.

 

[Magooch]

Isnt that what practice during the week is all about. You prepare for certain situations
Like 3rd down and whether to go for 6 or 3,
design some plays if you want to try for a TD, practice those plays over and over until have it down pat so when the situation arises in a game everyone knows exactly what you want to do. "Practicing" a play to go for 6 in a real game is inviting a huge amount of risk that is totally unnecessary if you already have the game locked down.

I mean, I think pretty much everyone who has ever played any sport will understand that practice situations and game situations are two entirely different things. Think of taking this to its logical conclusion - if your practice reps do just as much as game reps, why bother showing ANYTHING in-game beyond what is absolutely necessary? You don't get any style points - we should only be aiming to score the minimum number of points required to win the game. Who wants to see that?

And call me crazy, but when you've got multiple 3rd-and-shorts...I'm just not convinced that running a draw out of shotgun is the only play you could choose there that doesn't "invite a huge amount of unnecessary risk" lol

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Isnt that what practice during the week is all about. You prepare for certain situations
Like 3rd down and whether to go for 6 or 3,
design some plays if you want to try for a TD, practice those plays over and over until have it down pat so when the situation arises in a game everyone knows exactly what you want to do. "Practicing" a play to go for 6 in a real game is inviting a huge amount of risk that is totally unnecessary if you already have the game locked down.

For me it wasn't about "going for 6", it was more about the play calls on 3rd down. Those 2 calls told me that MLF doesn't have a lot of trust in his QB or his offense. I doubt on either of those 3rd downs Matt said out loud; "OK guys, lets play it safe and settle for 3." However, in his head he seemed to be thinking; "My defense is playing good, I don't want Jordan throwing an INT here and ******** the W up, lets run the ball, try to catch them off guard and pick up the 1st down." Which might be a good call, if you have played a wide open offensive style all day, but it was about as predictable as the 4th and 1 call against the Eagles. In that situation, MLF wasn't running the ball to play it safe, he was running it thinking he would pick up a first down.

Matt's play calling has been slow and average. With his current defense, that might win you some games against average to below average teams, but you will get knocked out of the playoffs pretty quickly playing that kind of football.

I think @Magooch nailed it on the head when he said:

It seems like there is this belief amongst some that once we find ourselves in a situation where we NEED those extra points, we'll just be able to "flip the switch" and all of these field goal situations will turn into touchdowns for us.

In reality, I don't think it is nearly so easy to flip that switch as we might like to believe.

 

[chemist]

I mean, I think pretty much everyone who has ever played any sport will understand that practice situations and game situations are two entirely different things. Think of taking this to its logical conclusion - if your practice reps do just as much as game reps, why bother showing ANYTHING in-game beyond what is absolutely necessary? You don't get any style points - we should only be aiming to score the minimum number of points required to win the game. Who wants to see that?

And call me crazy, but when you've got multiple 3rd-and-shorts...I'm just not convinced that running a draw out of shotgun is the only play you could choose there that doesn't "invite a huge amount of unnecessary risk" lol

Sorry but if you want take things to its logical conclusion the goal of playing the game is to win it. Once you have achieved your goal why do anything else that may possibly cost you the game or invite unnecessay injuries to our players especially since we are already short handed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Once you have achieved your goal why do anything else that may possibly cost you the game or invite unnecessay injuries to our players especially since we are already short handed.

Your goal to win the Game isn't achieved until the clock reads 0:00. Ask the players on the field in Seattle for the NFC championship game in 2014/2015.

Nobody wants unnecessary injuries, but by kicking that first FG, the game was far from over and the defense was exposed to "unnecessary injuries", as was the offense again in that 2nd FG drive. You want to "end" the game early, and put your backups on the field, go for the throat and score TD's when you have a chance to.

I really dislike the Ohio State Buckeyes. Not just because they seem to always beat the Badgers but they have this knack of never letting their foot off the pedal. I am convinced it is so that they can get up by such large margins, that they get valuable playing time for their 3rd and 4th stringers. That is what winning Championships is about.

 

[Magooch]

Sorry but if you want take things to its logical conclusion the goal of playing the game is to win it. Once you have achieved your goal why do anything else that may possibly cost you the game or invite unnecessay injuries to our players especially since we are already short handed.

Of course it is, that's what I'm saying. If finishing the game with a score that is (+1) compared to your opponent is all that counts, why do anything more?

I mean, look at the game situation. With 8 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, we were up by 11 points. Why did we bother trying to score then?

At the start of the 4th, we were up by 14. Love passed the ball three plays in a row! Why would we subject him to those excessive risks?!?

With 7 minutes left in the game, we get the ball back and are up 23-3. I mean, why even bother trying to run a play at all at that point? Go out there and take three kneeldowns and force them to burn up their timeouts. Maybe they score a touchdown. Who cares? It doesn't matter, we'd still win.

Then we get the ball back one more time with 3 minutes on the clock. Again, why even run a play? Why not just protect your players and take a knee? Coming out of the two minute warning, Matt had Willis run a pass play on 2nd and 8. Why would he subject him to those risks? Doesn't he know Willis and the rest of the boys can get those reps in practice? Take a knee. Maybe the Vikings score again, but again, who cares? You don't get style points and winning 23-20 is just as good as winning 23-6.

Obviously this sounds completely ridiculous, because it is, but this is the logical conclusion of "having more points is the only thing that matters, don't put your players at risk any more than is absolutely necessary"