Official Niners studs n duds

milani

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Yeah making PI reviewable became a joke and stretched out games and, in about 99% of the cases, is a subjective call. The irony is that there was nothing to question in the call that precipitated the review (Saints/Rams game). Anyone looking at that play objectively (or I suppose subjectively as well) clearly saw PI. It's like any other thing in life, we have to live with some very bad mistakes. I think the current system is probably about as good as it will get for now. Well, until the next meeting of the Rules Committee.
It has been 9 seasons since the Fail Mary. Maybe the owners feel differently now. Allowing replacements makes you wonder how they feel about FT refs.
 

captainWIMM

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It was only a fiasco because the refs were literally allowed to ignore the fact that pass interference was reviewable. Obvious cases of interference were completely ignored. Frankly, imo the refs made a mockery of themselves and the NFL in that situation.

Pass interference mostly being a subjective call is the main reason it shouldn't be reviewable. The league trying it for one year proved to me it was a terrible idea in the first place.

Yeah making PI reviewable became a joke and stretched out games and, in about 99% of the cases, is a subjective call. The irony is that there was nothing to question in the call that precipitated the review (Saints/Rams game). Anyone looking at that play objectively (or I suppose subjectively as well) clearly saw PI. It's like any other thing in life, we have to live with some very bad mistakes. I think the current system is probably about as good as it will get for now. Well, until the next meeting of the Rules Committee.

There's absolutely no doubt the Rams should have been flagged for pass interference on that play. Unfortunately there's no way to make only obvious missed calls reviewable.
 

Heyjoe4

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It has been 9 seasons since the Fail Mary. Maybe the owners feel differently now. Allowing replacements makes you wonder how they feel about FT refs.
I'm not convinced the officiating would be better if they had full-time officials. As Wimm points out, the NFL can certainly afford to pay them well. I still like the idea. Would it make a difference though, and why? )Well for one it would remove other distractions they have in their professional lives outside football.) Too much is at stake to leave it to part timers. That's harsh on officials and I don't mean that - the current officials do very well in a lightning fast game. If anything, I'm surprised more calls aren't missed.

Maybe somewhere down the road they'll build AI robots who can be proven to be more reliable than flesh and blood refs. It's probably inevitable, but I don't like it. You can't take mistakes out of football, whether it's an official missing an obvious PI call to a head coach calling for a FG in the waning minutes of the NFCCG, training by 8 on the opponents 8 yard like. And in most cases of mistakes, good arguments can be made for and against. So keep football human. Leave AI on our computers.
Pass interference mostly being a subjective call is the main reason it shouldn't be reviewable. The league trying it for one year proved to me it was a terrible idea in the first place.



There's absolutely no doubt the Rams should have been flagged for pass interference on that play. Unfortunately there's no way to make only obvious missed calls reviewable.
And that's the point. The Rules Committee was trying to solve for one problem, one incident. I've never seem a more obvious PI call, and it's really unfortunate for the Saints, but they changed the whole system (to the detriment of all) for one play. It's unfortunate, but the Rules Committee has to consider the greater good. (And its was made worse because on any reviewable play, PI was added.) The greater good doesn't include making PI reviewable. At least they fixed it after one year.
 

AmishMafia

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They should have a ref or two in the box watching the camera feeds. They could be in radio contact with guys in field constantly giving feed back. The Steelers were screwed out of a TD on the blocked FG. Could have had ref review and in he time that the refs huddle up to discuss, get the right call. No disruption of the game. Just better calls.

Last night Seattle punted 2x on same play. 2nd one was past the LOS and should have been a penalty. Obvious on the replay, but missed during the confusion of such a rare event.
 

sschind

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They should have a ref or two in the box watching the camera feeds. They could be in radio contact with guys in field constantly giving feed back. The Steelers were screwed out of a TD on the blocked FG. Could have had ref review and in he time that the refs huddle up to discuss, get the right call. No disruption of the game. Just better calls.

Last night Seattle punted 2x on same play. 2nd one was past the LOS and should have been a penalty. Obvious on the replay, but missed during the confusion of such a rare event.
In general I don't have a problem with the refs on the field either. The game is fast and they cant see everything when it is happening at full speed. However, if they are going to give the booth refs authority in the last two minutes and on scoring plays and turnovers they need to have authority on everything. If the refs in the booth see penalty that was missed for whatever reason they should be able to stop the game and make the call.

I know certain refs are responsible for watching certain areas but that doesn't mean they can't call something out of their area if they see it.

In the case of an offsides or a facemask or helmet to helmet that the on field refs missed if a booth ref sees it after the fact they should be able to call it.

Judgement calls are a bit tougher. If a ref is running with the receiver and defender and he makes a call, or he doesn't make a call I don't know that a booth ref should be able to override him but if he sees a different angle that the on field ref couldn't see then I guess he should be able to correct it.
 

sschind

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They should have a ref or two in the box watching the camera feeds. They could be in radio contact with guys in field constantly giving feed back. The Steelers were screwed out of a TD on the blocked FG. Could have had ref review and in he time that the refs huddle up to discuss, get the right call. No disruption of the game. Just better calls.

Last night Seattle punted 2x on same play. 2nd one was past the LOS and should have been a penalty. Obvious on the replay, but missed during the confusion of such a rare event.
Can you point me to a view that shows conclusively that the offsides call was wrong?
 

AmishMafia

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Can you point me to a view that shows conclusively that the offsides call was wrong?
Yes.

Side view shows they were not offsides pre-snap. Slo-mo shows the center torqued the ball and they moved. It was somewhat a double pump on the hike. I think it was legal.
 

AmishMafia

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In general I don't have a problem with the refs on the field either. The game is fast and they cant see everything when it is happening at full speed. However, if they are going to give the booth refs authority in the last two minutes and on scoring plays and turnovers they need to have authority on everything. If the refs in the booth see penalty that was missed for whatever reason they should be able to stop the game and make the call.

I know certain refs are responsible for watching certain areas but that doesn't mean they can't call something out of their area if they see it.

In the case of an offsides or a facemask or helmet to helmet that the on field refs missed if a booth ref sees it after the fact they should be able to call it.

Judgement calls are a bit tougher. If a ref is running with the receiver and defender and he makes a call, or he doesn't make a call I don't know that a booth ref should be able to override him but if he sees a different angle that the on field ref couldn't see then I guess he should be able to correct it.
I bet their are a bunch of refs who are either too fat, too old, too ugly, or some other handicap to be on the field but are very knowledgeable. Perfect opportunity to be a booth ref.
 

sschind

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Yes.

Side view shows they were not offsides pre-snap. Slo-mo shows the center torqued the ball and they moved. It was somewhat a double pump on the hike. I think it was legal.
Thanks I haven't seen any side shots. I'll have to look for one.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Pass interference mostly being a subjective call is the main reason it shouldn't be reviewable. The league trying it for one year proved to me it was a terrible idea in the first place.
Actually, the fact that it is a subjective call and the fact that it can be such a huge penalty, are exactly why I would prefer that if its questionable, other eyes look at it in slow motion. Too many times we have seen a ref throw his flag when there wasn't enough to warrant it or it was actually offensive PI. All in all, I totally dislike PI in the NFL.
 

PikeBadger

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I thought they showed it during the game. Am I remembering wrong?
Yes, you are remembering wrong. They showed a side view in slow motion and it showed 23 and the guy next to him moving into the neutral zone before Bradley begins ball movement in any direction. The side judge that threw the flag had the same view and correctly threw the flag. I just wish Tonyan had flinched when 23 moved forward so that the whistle had blown and the play called dead. I'm sick of hearing this garbage narrative that the refs screwed Pittsburgh on this play. It's a false narrative and still gets repeated here. The play was called correctly in real time.
 

AmishMafia

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Yes, you are remembering wrong. They showed a side view in slow motion and it showed 23 and the guy next to him moving into the neutral zone before Bradley begins ball movement in any direction. The side judge that threw the flag had the same view and correctly threw the flag. I just wish Tonyan had flinched when 23 moved forward so that the whistle had blown and the play called dead. I'm sick of hearing this garbage narrative that the refs screwed Pittsburgh on this play. It's a false narrative and still gets repeated here. The play was called correctly in real time.
I think it's not memory, but those green and gold goggles of yours. They definitely moved post snap. The slo mo here proves it:


The only question is if they were lined up offsides.
 

Schultz

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I agree with Gene Gene the dancing machine. I also believe the Pack would have still won the game anyway.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I think it's not memory, but those green and gold goggles of yours. They definitely moved post snap. The slo mo here proves it:


The only question is if they were lined up offsides.
I may be looking at the picture with green and gold goggles, but it sure looks like TJ Watt (#90) is lined up offsides. Look at the feet of Loudermilk (#92) who is lined up close to the ball, just left of Myers. Also, in the refs defense, both Haden and Fitzpatrick seem to beat the snap or at least the ball leaving Myers hands.

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PikeBadger

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That's a completely horsecrap view of the play. Need to see it from where the side judge was standing.
 

AmishMafia

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I may be looking at the picture with green and gold goggles, but it sure looks like TJ Watt (#90) is lined up offsides. Look at the feet of Loudermilk (#92) who is lined up close to the ball, just left of Myers. Also, in the refs defense, both Haden and Fitzpatrick seem to beat the snap or at least the ball leaving Myers hands.

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Tough to say if they were lined up offsides from this angle. Laudermilk has his hand on the ground so his feet are back further from the LOS than Watt who is standing.

During the broadcast they showed a more sideline view and it wasn't conclusive, but it appeared like they were not lining up offsides.
 

milani

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I agree with Gene Gene the dancing machine. I also believe the Pack would have still won the game anyway.
Good debate. I still see it as offside. I have not seen anyone ask the line judge himself.
 

milani

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I may be looking at the picture with green and gold goggles, but it sure looks like TJ Watt (#90) is lined up offsides. Look at the feet of Loudermilk (#92) who is lined up close to the ball, just left of Myers. Also, in the refs defense, both Haden and Fitzpatrick seem to beat the snap or at least the ball leaving Myers hands.

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Is there no actual site view? A camera where the line judge was standing?
I think it's not memory, but those green and gold goggles of yours. They definitely moved post snap. The slo mo here proves it:


The only question is if they were lined up offsides.
They moved both post snap and pre snap. If it was only post snap he never calls it. And if they lined up in the neutral zone the ref always announces it. He only said offside. You must have a camera view from the side where the line judge sees it in order to understand his perception.
 

milani

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I may be looking at the picture with green and gold goggles, but it sure looks like TJ Watt (#90) is lined up offsides. Look at the feet of Loudermilk (#92) who is lined up close to the ball, just left of Myers. Also, in the refs defense, both Haden and Fitzpatrick seem to beat the snap or at least the ball leaving Myers hands.

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I like Gene
I think it's not memory, but those green and gold goggles of yours. They definitely moved post snap. The slo mo here proves it:


The only question is if they were lined up offsides.
I like Gene but his job is different than when he was on the field. Remember he was the head man when McCarthy's challenge overturned Dez Bryant's catch.
 

milani

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Tough to say if they were lined up offsides from this angle. Laudermilk has his hand on the ground so his feet are back further from the LOS than Watt who is standing.

During the broadcast they showed a more sideline view and it wasn't conclusive, but it appeared like they were not lining up offsides.
And if it was not conclusive the call on the field must stand. Out of all this I did not hear Tomlin say anything about it on the post game.
 

milani

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That's a completely horsecrap view of the play. Need to see it from where the side judge was standing.
Indeed. And there is not enough to say it was not offside. And as I understand there was no delay in pulling out the flag. The yellow was there before the block was even made.
 

Heyjoe4

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Indeed. And there is not enough to say it was not offside. And as I understand there was no delay in pulling out the flag. The yellow was there before the block was even made.
Watt might have lined up offside. Bur 23 and 93 timed the snap to perfection and weren't touched on their way to Crosby. The Packers caught a break, plain and simple. It doesn't and it won't always work out that way. Move on. The Packers win that game anyway.
 
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