MLF decision making process

Pokerbrat2000

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I have seen a lot of sentiment suggesting that Love should've audibled out of the last play there at the end.

I don't entirely disagree however I wonder exactly how much freedom/latitude he is being given there.

Take this quote from Tom Silverstein: "Jacobs said after he finished a group interview at his locker that the play did not have an option for Love to audible into a better play."

Yup and THAT is on your HC.

EVERY team should have a handful of plays for critical down and distances. Each of those plays should afford the QB with options to audible into. I guess MLF just feels he will beat the other team over the head with the same play, you know because that will "outsmart them". :rolleyes:
 

tynimiller

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Not really sure why you disagree with my post, since we are basically saying the same thing.

However, I do have my doubts on Love's ability to read the recipe fully. I do agree with you that MLF is making him play with 1 hand tied behind his back at times. Not just with his (MLF's) play calling, but his apparent lack of putting Love in a kitchen where he can cook successfully. Which is why I said MLF needs to roll Love out more on RPO's. Especially against defenses that are collapsing the pocket on a consistent basis. How many balls got batted down last night? How many times was Love forced to throw through the front 7 and the pass was off? If you can't give your QB a clean pocket to throw from, you have to artificially create it by rolling him out. (See Jalen Hurts most of the night).
You stated Love has growth or something like that like he’s not quite ready to be unleashed, disagreed with that if I read the sentiment right is all.
 
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100% agree. I was actually saying that out loud (to myself) most of the game. "What the F, this isn't preseason guys!" Players out of position, players dropping balls, bad play calls, all-in-all it looked like guys that hadn't played football in months.

That was Rhyan that got blown up at Center, as did Morgan and Musgrave. That play was THE most critical play of the game and it looked like back yard football. I put that on MLF. Call a fricking TO if you need to, but get your guys ready to play a KEY play.
That’s where your TO makes sense. If it’s your last timeout might’ve considered holding it. But why are we savings timeouts It’s our last drive and it’s critical we get that play correctly.

Make that and we’re 1st n 10 GB46 if and 1:30 left on the clock in the next play. That’s plenty of time to work a FG or shot at the Paint and Kick with under :20 sec
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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I'm putting myself in a time out for the day.

I am rage posting and if I don't stop, I will call MLF up and fire him myself.

I still think he is a good HC, but am convinced more than ever, he is not a good play caller and needs to hand the job off to someone more qualified to do it.

Carry on without me for the day. :D
 

Pokerbrat2000

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You stated Love has growth or something like that like he’s not quite ready to be unleashed, disagreed with that if I read the sentiment right is all.

All I said was that Love still has some developing to do. Do you think he is playing at the level of a FHOF QB already? However, that isn't to say that he can't be trusted to audible out or run the offense on his own. I don't think MLF trusts him to do so.

MLF shows no confidence in his QB. He makes him sit in a collapsing pocket all night long. Did he ever call a QB roll out, with a RPO?

I know Love has some developing to do, but he will never get there with a HC/OC that constantly fails him.
 
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Right now it’s tough to say where we go on Offense. The Defense is Playoff Caliber. The Offense just can’t finish drives very good. I’m beginning to believe it’s not just injuries alone.

This might be why Rodgers was a perfect fit. He was essentially a co play caller. He had freedom (and ability) to change up a play and it made Matt look better than he probably is. I don’t think he’s awful. I just think he’s stale and we do very little creative stuff. Our version of creative is passing in 1st down. In itself you do want make sure you into 1980’s Lynn Dckey run, run, pass, punt. Yet you’ve got to have a better set of playbook than what we’re seeing.

It’s quite possible (as suggested) that Matt isn’t evolving and therefore we are predictable level.
 
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On a separate note. IF and it’s a big IF Reed gets back healthy like Watson did. Plus we can stay ahead of .500 in the meantime. I could see where his presence pushes the pecking order at Receiver down some.

Let’s face it. This is not intended to be shade at Melton. Yet when he’s our 3rd or 4th best receiving option? we’re just in trouble. The guys been playing CB all year. It’s VERY difficult to wear multiple position hats. It’s asking too much of Bo and stretching him too thin to ask him anything past maybe fielding some kicks.
 

Magooch

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On one hand it's somewhat true. injuries have certainly been a big factor. We finished the game without probably like 3 or 4 of our top pass catchers.

But on the other hand I have also heard for years now how Matt's scheme can get any WR open and create opportunities for anyone. And how we don't actually need to have a #1 WR or whatnot because we have a bunch of guys who could be our "#1" on any given week.

We stomached the loss of Reed pretty well but it seems like losing Kraft basically punched a hole in the hull of our ship and we don't have any plan to recover from that one.
 
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On one hand it's somewhat true. injuries have certainly been a big factor. We finished the game without probably like 3 or 4 of our top pass catchers.

But on the other hand I have also heard for years now how Matt's scheme can get any WR open and create opportunities for anyone. And how we don't actually need to have a #1 WR or whatnot because we have a bunch of guys who could be our "#1" on any given week.

We stomached the loss of Reed pretty well but it seems like losing Kraft basically punched a hole in the hull of our ship and we don't have any plan to recover from that one.
Well. Again this isn’t a slight on other guys because the difference isn’t drastic in the top 4-5 WR’s. As far as production?

I’d put
Kraft at #1 (out for season)
Reed at #2 (out for another month?)

Doubs at #3
Wicks at #4a
Watson at #4b he’s still ramping up)
Golden at #5
Musgrave #5b

Imo we’ve lost 2 of our best weapons. I know we’re not supposed to speak to injuries, but it’s noticeable now. Until Watson ramps up in a couple weeks and Reed is able to get on the field for a couple weeks it’s going to be rough.

Most teams if you remove their best pair of catchers. (2 WR’s or 1TE/1WR) it’s going to cause problems. We saw this with Tampa Bay recently.
 

tynimiller

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All I said was that Love still has some developing to do. Do you think he is playing at the level of a FHOF QB already? However, that isn't to say that he can't be trusted to audible out or run the offense on his own. I don't think MLF trusts him to do so.

I don’t view QBs as either FHOFers or in process of developing. Love when allowed COOKS like one of the best to do it. MLF needs to use it more so but he is so flipping committed to making the run game set up the pass.
 
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On OL. We just likely lost Jenkins season ending with a fractured leg.

I seriously would consider giving Monk a shot there if he’s 100%. We know what we have with Rhyan and it’s very C- D+ imo. If not next week, at least by December. He’s got 5 seasons of college preparation and he’s no longer a Rookie. See what you have there. Toying with Ryan is just temporary and it’s not ideal at all.

I love what Kinnard brings experience wise. I’d get that guy on the field also. You’ve got a 4th year player that KC took at #145 overall. His PFF is 77.7 overall with a 90’s Run block grade on limited snaps (45) Also a modest Lower 60’s pass block grade
 
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milani

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This is a real problem with MLF and his play calling.

Sometimes I wonder if MLF does it on purpose. Maybe in the back of the mind he wants to force Love to run the called play? I may be reading too much into this, but I know there was some friction back when Rodgers was the QB and MLF would get angry at him for audibling out of his called plays. Did Matt decide, consciously or subconsciously, that he wouldn't make that "mistake" with Jordan? Passive-aggressive management of his QB, dictated by previously being dominated by a veteran QB?
I would say YES. MM simply gave up on questioning Rodgers especially after that playoff meltdown in Seattle when he played " Not to lose. "
 

Magooch

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Yeah, I mean injuries are certainly a factor, I don't discount that

But what I am saying is that...I don't think it's a totally adequate explanation, either.

Against Philly we had Watson*, Wicks, Doubs, Heath, Musgrave, Fitzpatrick, and Williams all available.

Against Carolina we had Doubs, Watson, Heath, Golden, Williams, Kraft (prior to injury; played 50% of snaps), Musgrave, and Fitzpatrick.

Injuries hurt, but that group of pass-catching options should still be expected to be able to produce more than 7 or 13 points, respectively.

I'm not expecting us to go out and hang 50 with these guys but the production has been absolutely dreadful lately.


*I would also add the small quibble that I think Watson is done being "ramped up" by this point. He led all pass catchers in snap counts last night and was tied for 2nd on the team in offensive snaps (Watson at 82% was behind Walker, Morgan, Tom, Banks, and Love who all played 100%). He had just two games all of last season with greater than 80% snap share...I think at this point he's about as worked back in as he's going to be
 

mradtke66

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Against Philly we had Watson*, Wicks, Doubs, Heath, Musgrave, Fitzpatrick, and Williams all available.

My point would be that everyone on that list, save for Watson and Doubs, are not starter-grade players. Wicks and Heath are getting serious playing time because Golden and Reed are hurt.

Watson has only been targeted 4 times per game since he's come back. 0 drops, though he could have made a better play on the ball last night where he decided to be a defender. 23 yards per catch and a 66.67% catch rate is absurd. They might have to force the offense through him. Either he picks apart defenses or everyone else gets more favorable coverage as a result.
 

Magooch

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My point would be that everyone on that list, save for Watson and Doubs, are not starter-grade players. Wicks and Heath are getting serious playing time because Golden and Reed are hurt.
Yeah, I don't entirely disagree with that either.
But at the same time it's felt like for years now how we've been told that we don't need to invest in WR and we don't need a "true #1" because we have so many guys with "#1 potential" and LaFleur is so adept at scheming guys open that we should be able to lineup whoever we want at WR and get production out of them.
(Of course this is hyperbole to some degree)
In any case I would still venture that the combination of Watson+Doubs+Musgrave at TE is probably comparable (or favorable!) to many teams' WR1/WR2/TE1 options. With those three and whoever is available as WR3/WR4 I don't think it's unreasonable to say that we *should* be able to get more production out of our passing game. It just feels like we are not really even trying to do so, that's the baffling part.
Watson has only been targeted 4 times per game since he's come back. 0 drops, though he could have made a better play on the ball last night where he decided to be a defender. 23 yards per catch and a 66.67% catch rate is absurd. They might have to force the offense through him. Either he picks apart defenses or everyone else gets more favorable coverage as a result.
For sure, I'm with you there. Watson is such a dangerous player. Every time he is targeted it feels like a big play waiting to happen....but at the same time it seems like he is pretty much exclusively being utilized for big play opportunities and little else. Like much of the passing game right now it feels like it's either behind the LOS or 40 yards downfield. On one hand, he is a really great deep threat, but I would like to see him get more reps/targets in the more intermediate game, too. One way or the other I think we need to be looking his way more frequently.
 

milani

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Yup and THAT is on your HC.

EVERY team should have a handful of plays for critical down and distances. Each of those plays should afford the QB with options to audible into. I guess MLF just feels he will beat the other team over the head with the same play, you know because that will "outsmart them". :rolleyes:
I keep saying it. Watch Andy Reid in that situation. He gives Mahommes 2 or 3 options. And Mahommes understands them. For God sake even Bart Starr had options on 4th and 1. He may see something and play fake. He would even bootleg himself and he was no Hurts, Jackson, or Michael Vick. You have to give your QB options. Terrible coaching.
 

mradtke66

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But at the same time it's felt like for years now how we've been told that we don't need to invest in WR and we don't need a "true #1" because we have so many guys with "#1 potential" and LaFleur is so adept at scheming guys open that we should be able to lineup whoever we want at WR and get production out of them.

Heh. I don't think I've said that. Some people may have, but I don't buy it. Special players make everything easier.
In any case I would still venture that the combination of Watson+Doubs+Musgrave at TE is probably comparable (or favorable!) to many teams' WR1/WR2/TE1 options. With those three and whoever is available as WR3/WR4 I don't think it's unreasonable to say that we *should* be able to get more production out of our passing game.

I don't think it is/does. Watson perhaps harsh, but Watson, right now anyway, feels like an odd 1/2 tweener. He has the ceiling to be a 1, but, imho, his lost time due to injury is holding him back. He's probably the guy we could build around though. Here's hoping he grows into the role.

Doubs to me is a 2/3 tweener. He runs great routes, knows how to find the hole in the zone and sit, but he's not really special at anything. I'm glad to have him and we are better to have him, but I see him as a complementary player.

And Muskgrave...I'm sad. He's a poor blocker and he's not that good of a receiver to offset his blocking deficiencies. I was prepared to bet we let him walk when his contract expires. With Krafts injury, maybe he can grow, but Muskgrave was the higher draft pick. I wonder if he's stuck around as long as he has because he was a 2nd. If we snagged him in the 6th, he might have already been cut.

For sure, I'm with you there. Watson is such a dangerous player. Every time he is targeted it feels like a big play waiting to happen....but at the same time it seems like he is pretty much exclusively being utilized for big play opportunities and little else. Like much of the passing game right now it feels like it's either behind the LOS or 40 yards downfield.

My 2c is that we don't have enough scary offensive players coupled with our line struggling to run block. He have been unable to run effectively against light boxes, so defenses stay in light boxes and dare us to throw. We don't have the players to beat coverage, leading us to this weird state. We use short passes, WR screens, etc, as a running game replacement. Intermediate routes can take longer to develop that deep shots, ironically. A fade or go can be a three step and throw play. A 15 yard in breaker needs a good pre snap read, deeper drop, post-snap read, and then a tricky throw to get over linebackers and short of safeties.

I've mentioned this in years past. Defenses can take away anything your offense wants to do, but they do so at the expense of giving something else up. Right now, defenses can ignore the run (light boxes) without penalty. They can flood the intermediate routes and keep stuff in front of them. What they are leaving for us to take are the short stuff and the deep shots. The former requires longer, perfect drives. The later is inherently difficult, leaving us to sputter. When everything lines up and we have an opening for midrange routes, we've had too many drops.

Until we can penalize teams by doing Something Else well enough to demand it be accounted for, we will struggle.
 

Thirteen Below

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I have wondered that too. Even deeper into that thought, does he have the green light from his coach to audible out of a called play?

If he doesn't (by this point in his career), then we have a serious systemic problem in our organization.


And also, does he have the confidence to do so?

If he doesn't (by this point in his career), then we have yet another serious systemic problem in our organization.


I want the biggest MLF apologist here to convince us that this is a man who trusts his HC.
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And that makes 3 serious problems.

When the players are telling the press that they have no clue why their coach is managing the game the way he is, and that they don't have confidence in the plan, that is a pretty loud bell ringing.
 

Thirteen Below

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I don’t view QBs as either FHOFers or in process of developing. Love when allowed COOKS like one of the best to do it. MLF needs to use it more so but he is so flipping committed to making the run game set up the pass.
More and more I get the impression that LaFleur significantly underestimates how good Love is capable of being, or that he greatly overestimates his own self-perceived genius as an offensive wizard. Or some combination of both.
 

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Defenses can take away anything your offense wants to do, but they do so at the expense of giving something else up. Right now, defenses can ignore the run (light boxes) without penalty. They can flood the intermediate routes and keep stuff in front of them. What they are leaving for us to take are the short stuff and the deep shots. The former requires longer, perfect drives. The later is inherently difficult, leaving us to sputter. When everything lines up and we have an opening for midrange routes, we've had too many drops.

Until we can penalize teams by doing Something Else well enough to demand it be accounted for, we will struggle.
Pretty much nails it, IMO.

Why is Matt Lafleur the only man in Packerland who does not seem to understand that?
 

milani

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More and more I get the impression that LaFleur significantly underestimates how good Love is capable of being, or that he greatly overestimates his own self-perceived genius as an offensive wizard. Or some combination of both.
You want to grow Love into a game manager. When you get him there the coach can worry less about the playbook and more about the execution of the plays themselves.
 
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In any case I would still venture that the combination of Watson+Doubs+Musgrave at TE is probably comparable (or favorable!) to many teams' WR1/WR2/TE1 options.
Hey @Magooch not trying to pick at you agree with most of what you said but this one’s a little shaky.

I think we’d easily be in the bottom 10 out of 32 teams as far as teams getting to redraft our 3 guys against others. None are a WR1 or TE1 imo. At best I’d put Doubs, Wicks and Watson clumped together between an average level WR2 and good WR3 options. Luke has never surpassed average TE2.

We’re really dealing with most teams WR2. WR3 and TE2

I’d put Reed as a low end WR1 to High end WR2 type. Kraft was a high end TE1 but it’s futile to discuss that now.

We’re going to need a slight uptick from Musgrave. We saw that last 2 weeks. There’s some hope there.

We’re going to need 1 of Wicks or Golden to elevate.

IMO the turning point might be can Reed return to form? If he picks up where he left off? We’re back to more league normal at WR room.

Doubs is fine
Watson should be ok. I know he’s playing snaps but it takes a minute to ramp up when he’s missed lots of preparation and playing time.
 
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