Love vs. Willis

[OldSchool101]

That TD pass he threw against the Giants when he came in for one drive was upper echelon stuff. So was his long pass to the right sideline early against the Ravens. So do you have any criticisms at all with Love's game? Are you happy with the jump balls into triple coverage off his back foot that he likes to chuck? We've been very lucky on a lot of those. More than once our receivers have had to switch to DB and play defense on some of them. It seems to me that not only do you want to downplay the good things Willis brings, but you also downplay the things Love needs to clean up and has not done in 3 years.

However Jordan has a VERY respectable INT number so the INT thing really has not been as much of an issue (crossing my legs and arms and fingers!).
I’ve even seen Love throw the ball away, which he rarely did as a Rookie.

As far as Willis. The guy looks great. Yet we’re talking 2-3 starts? 89 attempts is a pretty small sample to be walking a Top 10 BFL QB for the chance at lightning in a bottle. Baltimore doesn’t have the Defense we’re accustomed to either. Chicago isn’t far behind them. I don’t even think either rank in the top16? Anyway it’s not that he didn’t do good it’s just more it’s not a top 10 pair of Defenses either if that makes sense?

Nothing to think Jordan wouldn’t have similarly carved either Chicago or Baltimore up. Maybe not as a Runner but also subtle things like the Cadence fumble likely doesn’t happen either. That led to -3 on turnover and kept the ball out of our hands. It was
2nd n 3 and a first down was knocking on midfield. Might’ve been a -6 to -10 cadence swing just on that 1 possession.

Listen don’t take this wrong. I think Malik will be fine somewhere, but he’s really mostly not tested by fire. Jordan hovers around Top 8-12 Consistency in about every measurable metric. You just dont move on from a Top10 QB that’s in his 3rd season as a starter and still improving statistically. Jordan is a tick better than C.J. Stroud imo. Except Stroud has a better Defense. Nobody is talking parting with Stroud

 

[BrokenArrow]

I try not to pass judgment on QB too soon if they have only played in a handful of games over two year. It is like assuming Luke is the franchise kicker because he made his kicks over 2 games including a 61 yarder. The book was not out on Favre just because he pulled out some victories when Majik went down. He was all we had and he passed through 1992 with promise.

Favre wasn't just "all we had." He was Wof's guy from the start.

 

[BrokenArrow]

However Jordan has a VERY respectable INT number so the INT thing really has not been as much of an issue (crossing my legs and arms and fingers!).
I’ve even seen Love throw the ball away, which he rarely did as a Rookie.

As far as Willis. The guy looks great. Yet we’re talking 2-3 starts? 89 attempts is a pretty small sample to be walking a Top 10 BFL QB for the chance at lightning in a bottle.

96 attempts, actually. And he has completed all but 13 of those with no INTs and not against bottom dweller teams. How many QBs ever have a streak where they complete 83 of 96 passes? Probably almost impossible to know, but it can't be many, if any. I'm pretty sure Love has never done anything close to that and I doubt Rodgers and Favre did either. Willis has played about 16 1/2 quarters for us. Doing it over that stretch demonstrates consistency.

Nothing to think Jordan wouldn’t have similarly carved either Chicago or Baltimore up. Maybe not as a Runner but also subtle things like the Cadence fumble likely doesn’t happen either. That led to -3 on turnover and kept the ball out of our hands. It was
2nd n 3 and a first down was knocking on midfield. Might’ve been a -6 to -10 cadence swing just on that 1 possession.

That was on Rhyan. MW was trying to change the play and he just decided to snap the damn ball.

Listen don’t take this wrong. I think Malik will be fine somewhere, but he’s really mostly not tested by fire. Jordan hovers around Top 8-12 Consistency in about every measurable metric. You just dont move on from a Top10 QB that’s in his 3rd season as a starter and still improving statistically. Jordan is a tick better than C.J. Stroud imo. Except Stroud has a better Defense. Nobody is talking parting with Stroud

Just wish he was more athletic. He'd be considered a scrambler in 1985, but not today. He has adequate mobility to extend plays but not really a running threat at all. I think of him as perhaps Warren Moon 2.0. But he has to clean some things up to reach that. But their style of play is almost identical.

 

[milani]

Favre wasn't just "all we had." He was Wof's guy from the start.

We had Majik Man. When he went down in the 2 previous years our backups were horrible. Favre was added in the offseason. When Majik made it 3 in a row Favre got the chance. But not everyone was sold on him until 1993. Not even Holmgren.

 

[OldSchool101]

96 attempts, actually. And he has completed all but 13 of those with no INTs and not against bottom dweller teams. How many QBs ever have a streak where they complete 83 of 96 passes? Probably almost impossible to know, but it can't be many, if any. I'm pretty sure Love has never done anything close to that and I doubt Rodgers and Favre did either. Willis has played about 16 1/2 quarters for us. Doing it over that stretch demonstrates consistency.



That was on Rhyan. MW was trying to change the play and he just decided to snap the damn ball.



Just wish he was more athletic. He'd be considered a scrambler in 1985, but not today. He has adequate mobility to extend plays but not really a running threat at all. I think of him as perhaps Warren Moon 2.0. But he has to clean some things up to reach that. But their style of play is almost identical.

I can see that.
Actually Love is very Aaron Rodgers like. If you look at their RAS they are near identical in speed and agility. Although Jordan had that knee injury in 2024 and he’s been a little more reluctant to Run, which I’m not to worried because he’s not Malik here.

Jordan’s number against Aaron is near identical in both their first starting season. Love had 1 more TD rushing (4TD) and out gained Rodgers 3.7 by running for 4.9 per carry and 40 more yards. Once Love injured he’s been not as confident running. I’m not sure that’s not planned some. They’d probably prefer Love doesn’t Run unless it’s John Elway critical goal line stuff

 

[rmontro]

What worries me is that these injuries will carry over into next season and we will start out 1-3 or 2-5 and come up short of anything by this time next season.

That's certainly possible, but the flip side of that is that maybe we finish strong as we get key players back? It would be a nice change to finish strong, since we've slumped at the end of these last two seasons. This year we've collapsed. To win Super Bowls, you have to finish strong. But as you inferred, we need better lines to compete with some of the top teams.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Even if we pull off an upset in Chicago the next round would be even gloomier. The 3 West Coast teams would beat us to a pulp, especially the 9ers. These injuries have depleted our lines. The Ravens blocked us like a JV team. And they smothered our run game except Willis. What worries me is that these injuries will carry over into next season and we will start out 1-3 or 2-5 and come up short of anything by this time next season.

I'm afraid you're right milani. Realistically, I'd be happy with a first-round-playoff win over the loathsome Ben Johnson. He has an absolutely brilliant mind for the game. He just stepped in it saying he liked beating MLF twice a year when he was OC for the Lions.

Those things stick. Now I still don't hate the Bears as much as the queens, but the Bears are getting close. I hope the football gods give us Packer fans one satisfying playoff win over Chicago. They have proven they can do it, even with all the injuries.

As for next year - you're right to be concerned - the injuries to Kraft and Parsons specifically may make them unable to play until October, and that's optimistic for Parsons.

For now, I just want a win against the Bears.

 

[BrokenArrow]

We had Majik Man. When he went down in the 2 previous years our backups were horrible. Favre was added in the offseason. When Majik made it 3 in a row Favre got the chance. But not everyone was sold on him until 1993. Not even Holmgren.

Favre was the guy Wolf wanted. His words, not mine.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Just look up nearly every advanced metric you want - Love has been awesome this year, borderline incredible overall.

Love has improved in each of his three years as a starter. And yeah, the stats are there.

This "QB controversy" re: Love and Willis is understandable. For just a moment, I thought about the draft haul a Love trade would get if Willis were given the starting QB job.

Tempting, but foolish. Willis may very play better football than Love, wherever he goes next. But it's far too risky to make that big a bet on a guy who has started, I think, three games. He has played brilliantly. Even so......

Willis does bring intangibles that I seldom see from Love - high energy, confidence, and decisiveness. That's just Love being himself. He's a low-profile guy for a QB. I wish he would show some of the fire of Favre, Rodgers, and now Willis - but if he just keeps winning, who cares?

 

[milani]

Favre was the guy Wolf wanted. His words, not mine.

Wolf was sold on other players as well and it did not mean the rest of the organization or players were. Not all of them succeeded.

 

[Thirteen Below]

That was on Rhyan. MW was trying to change the play and he just decided to snap the damn ball.

Yeah; you could tell by the look on his face while Lafleur was reading him the riot act on the sideline.

 

[Thirteen Below]

I w

We had Majik Man. When he went down in the 2 previous years our backups were horrible. Favre was added in the offseason. When Majik made it 3 in a row Favre got the chance. But not everyone was sold on him until 1993. Not even Holmgren.

I would say especially Holmgren, and even then more like 1994. His first 2 seasons as a fulltime starter (92 and 93), he threw for 37 touchdowns and 27 interceptions. There were times I thought Holmgren's head was going to explode!

 

[rmontro]

I can't say enough about Willis, especially in that last game, where he almost singlehandedly kept us in the game. But I'll also point out he hasn't won a game for us this year. Can't really blame that on him though.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Tempting, but foolish. Willis may very play better football than Love, wherever he goes next. But it's far too risky to make that big a bet on a guy who has started, I think, three games. He has played brilliantly. Even so......

I think there's an enormous risk that comes with Willis. His willingness to break out and run down the open field, and his wild style of running, may be exciting as hell and make him a constant threat to bust the game open, but it also exposes him to serious injuries. Especially ankle and knee injuries. There were 2 or 3 times the other night that I was just cringing as I watched him lunge and cut through all those 300-pound linemen.

It's rare for running quarterbacks to have long careers. Michael Vick was a #1 pick, and while he played a lot of years, he was injured constantly. Vince Young, a #3 pick, had 2 good seasons before the injuries started piling up, and was finished by Year 6. RGII? #2 overall pick who had 2 good seasons before the bottom dropped out, and he was done by Year 3 (although he did try to come back a couple of seasons, but he was getting new injuries faster than the old ones had a chance to heal.)

Despite their high draft positions, none of them were ever able to lead their team to postseason success, much less pose a serious threat to win a Lombardi. Vick was 2-4 in the playoffs (2 1-and-dones, and 2 2nd round ousters), and Young and Griffin were both 0-1 in their short careers. By the postseason, they were just beat to hell by 15 or 16 games of pounding.

Jalen Hurts is (so far) the exception. He is in his 6th season, and he's had a number of injuries (some of them serious), but he's been able to fight through them. So far. And he has an enviable post season record - 2 1-and-dones, but one Super Bowl loss and one Lombardi in his first 5 years.

But the more beatings he takes, the more cumulative effect they're likely to have, and it's already had a serious effect on his game. The Eagles are calling 30% fewer planned runs for Hurts each of the last 2 seasons, and this season their total rushing game is down from 3100 to less than 2000 so far. It seems clear that they're deliberately trading effectiveness on the ground for protecting Hurts in the long term, and defenses are not scheming for his runs the way they used to.

Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen are a couple more exceptions; if I recall correctly, Allen has led the NFL in runs and hits taken by a QB the last 2 seasons, but only misses 1 game every 2 seasons. Jackson is in his 8th season, and has had a ton of injuries, but (like Hurts) plays through them. Only misses 3-4 games a year. These are 2 tough sonsa*****es.

Which way Willis goes, we can't predict at this point - but his wild, reckless running style exposes him to some very dangerous hits, and it may be just a matter of time before something gives. When we already have a quarterback as good as Love, it seems awfully risky to move on from him in favor of someone with such a dangerous playing style.

 

[milani]

I can't say enough about Willis, especially in that last game, where he almost singlehandedly kept us in the game. But I'll also point out he hasn't won a game for us this year. Can't really blame that on him though.

Although I believe MLF said that if Willis does not do what he did against the Giants while Love had to go out " we don't win. "

 

[OldSchool101]

Love has improved in each of his three years as a starter. And yeah, the stats are there.

This "QB controversy" re: Love and Willis is understandable. For just a moment, I thought about the draft haul a Love trade would get if Willis were given the starting QB job.

Tempting, but foolish. Willis may very play better football than Love, wherever he goes next. But it's far too risky to make that big a bet on a guy who has started, I think, three games. He has played brilliantly. Even so......

Willis does bring intangibles that I seldom see from Love - high energy, confidence, and decisiveness. That's just Love being himself. He's a low-profile guy for a QB. I wish he would show some of the fire of Favre, Rodgers, and now Willis - but if he just keeps winning, who cares?

Willis is that if it sounds too good to be true? It probably is!”

I’d take backup for a couple games and the future 4th RD Draft pick (pure speculation) and forgo door #3.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Wolf was sold on other players as well and it did not mean the rest of the organization or players were. Not all of them succeeded.

The point was that Favre was the guy Wolf was hoping to draft for the Jets, so when the Pack hired him, the first thing he did was trade for him. That's all I was saying, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Favre was the guy Wolf wanted. His words, not mine.

Correct. One of Wolf's greatest achievements as GM was spotting the bench-sitting, 2nd round pick Favre in Atlanta. I don't think Favre was on anyone else's radar, although I'm not absolutely sure.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think there's an enormous risk that comes with Willis. His willingness to break out and run down the open field, and his wild style of running, may be exciting as hell and make him a constant threat to bust the game open, but it also exposes him to serious injuries. Especially ankle and knee injuries. There were 2 or 3 times the other night that I was just cringing as I watched him lunge and cut through all those 300-pound linemen.

It's rare for running quarterbacks to have long careers. Michael Vick was a #1 pick, and while he played a lot of years, he was injured constantly. Vince Young, a #3 pick, had 2 good seasons before the injuries started piling up, and was finished by Year 6. RGII? #2 overall pick who had 2 good seasons before the bottom dropped out, and he was done by Year 3 (although he did try to come back a couple of seasons, but he was getting new injuries faster than the old ones had a chance to heal.)

Despite their high draft positions, none of them were ever able to lead their team to postseason success, much less pose a serious threat to win a Lombardi. Vick was 2-4 in the playoffs (2 1-and-dones, and 2 2nd round ousters), and Young and Griffin were both 0-1 in their short careers. By the postseason, they were just beat to hell by 15 or 16 games of pounding.

Jalen Hurts is (so far) the exception. He is in his 6th season, and he's had a number of injuries (some of them serious), but he's been able to fight through them. So far. And he has an enviable post season record - 2 1-and-dones, but one Super Bowl loss and one Lombardi in his first 5 years.

But the more beatings he takes, the more cumulative effect they're likely to have, and it's already had a serious effect on his game. The Eagles are calling 30% fewer planned runs for Hurts each of the last 2 seasons, and this season their total rushing game is down from 3100 to less than 2000 so far. It seems clear that they're deliberately trading effectiveness on the ground for protecting Hurts in the long term, and defenses are not scheming for his runs the way they used to.

Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen are a couple more exceptions; if I recall correctly, Allen has led the NFL in runs and hits taken by a QB the last 2 seasons, but only misses 1 game every 2 seasons. Jackson is in his 8th season, and has had a ton of injuries, but (like Hurts) plays through them. Only misses 3-4 games a year. These are 2 tough sonsa*****es.

Which way Willis goes, we can't predict at this point - but his wild, reckless running style exposes him to some very dangerous hits, and it may be just a matter of time before something gives. When we already have a quarterback as good as Love, it seems awfully risky to move on from him in favor of someone with such a dangerous playing style.

Good points 13. Safe to say we were all pretty excited about every game Willis has been used. His running electrifies a crown and fanbase - but yeah, running QBs usually don't have long careers. It's starting to look like Jackson is done in Baltimore. Allen is the best running QB I've ever seen, and he can take a hit. Hurts is a good runner and he picks his spots. And he is incredbly strong, able to squat 550 lbs. That's lineman/LB strength.

Willis has made a lot of plays for GB. It's tempting to think he would bring more to the position than Love. I'm not so sure, and there is only a 5-game sample of his play.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Willis is that if it sounds too good to be true? It probably is!”

I’d take backup for a couple games and the future 4th RD Draft pick (pure speculation) and forgo door #3.

Right now, after so much recent disappointment, it's tempting to get caught up in a fantasy world where Willis is given the keys, Love is traded for a haul of draft picks, MLF is fired and Hafley is promoted to HC.

Each one of those things can be tossed for lack of merit. Now one possible scenario is where the Packers get blown out in the first round of the playoffs (very likely by Chicago), and Policy whacks MLF, and maybe Gluten.

I just don't see any of it. It requires a lot of wishful thinking. The scenario closest to possible, IMO, is MLF getting fired. Even that is a very, very long shot.

 

[El Guapo]

Willis has made a lot of plays for GB. It's tempting to think he would bring more to the position than Love. I'm not so sure, and there is only a 5-game sample of his play.

The temptation is the problem. He looks good when in the games, but LaFleur has consistently dumbed down the offense. While many say "so what" or "we should do that anyway if it gets better play," I'm not so sure. Willis is essentially looking at one read. If he doesn't like what he sees, he takes off and runs. That has worked because defenses haven't prepared for it and he has good legs.

However, run that scheme for an entire season and teams will easily clamp down on him. He has surely gotten better and only he knows his potential, but I think that Love is by far the smarter QB with the brains and athleticism to truly carry a team. The problem is that he hasn't been doing it consistently. The big question is if that is the QB or the coach.

 

[Pugger]

Green Bay should try and find a way to keep Willis. I’m sure Willis will be looking to cash in it will come down to does he have a legit chance to start or is he a bridge qb and competes. I agree with the situation he has been I can see him going to the jets or a crappy team and absolutely sucking like he did on the titans. Then again who knows. I think if the money is close Green Bay needs to find a way to keep him investing in the most important position is vital to success. It’s nice to have a good qb that’s a backup on the team. Look at what they paying Nate Hobbs in money and what he has accomplished… if they want him they can keep him as long as another team doesn’t throw a ridiculous amount of money at him

If Willis has offers to go where he can be a starter (I'll frankly be surprised if he doesn't) I wouldn't blame him or a moment if he left GB. Let's hope he gets offers from teams in the AFC.

 

[Pugger]

Favre wasn't just "all we had." He was Wof's guy from the start.

And Love is Gute's guy. As long as Gute is our GM and MLF is our HC Love isn't going anywhere.

 

[El Guapo]

If Willis has offers to go where he can be a starter (I'll frankly be surprised if he doesn't) I wouldn't blame him or a moment if he left GB. Let's hope he gets offers from teams in the AFC.

There are a lot of teams that would take a chance on him, including the Vikings. They need to bring in a Willis type of player that is expected to either win the starting job or be a competent backup when the incumbent gets injured.

And Love is Gute's guy. As long as Gute is our GM and MLF is our HC Love isn't going anywhere.

Regardless of who we may think is Gutenkunst guy (he obtained both of them), Love is the better quarterback in virtually all respects except for scrambling.

 

[Magooch]

The temptation is the problem. He looks good when in the games, but LaFleur has consistently dumbed down the offense. While many say "so what" or "we should do that anyway if it gets better play," I'm not so sure. Willis is essentially looking at one read. If he doesn't like what he sees, he takes off and runs. That has worked because defenses haven't prepared for it and he has good legs.

However, run that scheme for an entire season and teams will easily clamp down on him. He has surely gotten better and only he knows his potential, but I think that Love is by far the smarter QB with the brains and athleticism to truly carry a team. The problem is that he hasn't been doing it consistently. The big question is if that is the QB or the coach.

Thanks for this. This is essentially what I've been thinking but couldn't figure the best way to word it. I like Willis. He seems like a really cool guy, and he legitimately HAS improved a lot with us, I think. He will (and should) get starting opportunities elsewhere. But I simply can't look at his extremely limited reps with us and assume that can be extrapolated long-term/over the course of a season with the same level of success. I think Willis often benefits from A.) still very limited "tape" of him in our offense; B.) often entering into scenarios where defenses have predominantly schemed/gameplanned for Love; C.) a simplified offense/much more limited playbook and favorable "on-script" situations

I mean, we have pointed out in this very thread how comparatively immobile Love is. Imagine if you're a DC and you've spent all week planning to face Love. Or you've got seasons worth of tape on Love to plan off of, while you've got like....3 games worth of tape on Willis in LaFleur's offense to go on. And at the end of the day those are just two radically different players to account for. If you are planning predominantly around Love but play Willis, he will probably run all over you. But on the flip side, I would suspect if you had a team primarily planning to face Willis and wanting to contain his mobile threat, if Love enters that game he probably slices them apart in the passing game. It works both ways IMO.

Also lest we forget, Willis is only a year and change younger than Love. Love sat for three years, Willis was bad in Tennessee to start. But I would not look at the two and assume that Love has already peaked while Willis is still a young ascendant player with a much higher ceiling to reach. Willis certainly have more room to grow but I am not convinced we have seen Love's final product either