Training Camp Position Battles

[Deleted member 6794]

Packers just waived Pearson with an injury settlement, so that leaves us at 10 WRs, Davis should be next if any of the rookies are trying to get back there and field punts.

Davis has actually done a pretty good job returning punts ranking third in the league averaging 12.0 yards. While he definitely has to make better decisions one of the rookies would have to impress for the Packers to release Davis.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Davis has actually done a pretty good job returning punts ranking third in the league averaging 12.0 yards. While he definitely has to make better decisions one of the rookies would have to impress for the Packers to release Davis.

I know you have to be successful at all three phases of the game to win. But like many I believe have already said, if it's between Davis and a guy who's making plays on offense and defense, I'm going with the other guy. Cobb can return punts and Alexander can also return punts, guys who contribute with respect to their actual positions. If anything we can maybe get a 6th or 7th back in a trade for his return value.

 

[PikeBadger]

I know you have to be successful at all three phases of the game to win. But like many I believe have already said, if it's between Davis and a guy who's making plays on offense and defense, I'm going with the other guy. Cobb can return punts and Alexander can also return punts, guys who contribute with respect to their actual positions. If anything we can maybe get a 6th or 7th back in a trade for his return value.

I doubt that Davis would bring a draft pick from anyone unless you try to trade him right now. In August, everyone is cutting 37 players. Jags are essentially free at that time of year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Davis isn't worth a pack of bubblegum. Teams are flush with JAGS right now. Only thing the Packers will get by releasing him, is the $630K of savings from his rookie contract.

Only way he becomes trade bait, is if he has an outstanding preseason, then why cut him?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I know you have to be successful at all three phases of the game to win. But like many I believe have already said, if it's between Davis and a guy who's making plays on offense and defense, I'm going with the other guy. Cobb can return punts and Alexander can also return punts, guys who contribute with respect to their actual positions. If anything we can maybe get a 6th or 7th back in a trade for his return value.

If the Packers find a decent punt returner capable of having an impact either on offense or defense as well I would definitely be fine with parting ways with Davis. It's all but guaranteed no other team would give up a draft pick to acquire him though.

Davis isn't worth a pack of bubblegum. Teams are flush with JAGS right now. Only thing the Packers will get by releasing him, is the $630K of savings from his rookie contract.

Cap space isn't an issue in deciding whether to hold on to Davis as the savings created by releasing him would have to be spend par for par on another player making the roster.

 

[PikeBadger]

Davis is either going to have to become a legitimate contributing backup wide receiver or suddenly morph into Desmond Howard as a punt returner in order to survive the cutdowns to 53 imo. Too much in house competition imo for him to survive by default this year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Davis is either going to have to become a legitimate contributing backup wide receiver or suddenly morph into Desmond Howard as a punt returner in order to survive the cutdowns to 53 imo. Too much in house competition imo for him to survive by default this year.

As long as the Packers don't find an adequate replacement for Davis as a punt returner he will make the roster.

 

[PikeBadger]

As long as the Packers don't find an adequate replacement for Davis as a punt returner he will make the roster.

I would think that they will give a few guys a shot to see what they can do back there. Davis’s decision making is terrible but he has shown he can be dangerous. I would guess that guys like Aaron Jones, Rollins, Jackson, Moore and Hawkins might also be possible candidates.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I would think that they will give a few guys a shot to see what they can do back there. Davis’s decision making is terrible but he has shown he can be dangerous. I would guess that guys like Aaron Jones, Rollins, Jackson, Moore and Hawkins might also be possible candidates.

I agree that the Packers will give some players a shot to become the team's punt returner and therefore Davis isn't a lock to make the roster. But before Gutekunst should release him someone has to step up and prove capable of adequately replacing Davis.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Davis is either going to have to become a legitimate contributing backup wide receiver or suddenly morph into Desmond Howard as a punt returner in order to survive the cutdowns to 53 imo. Too much in house competition imo for him to survive by default this year.

Agreed.

That was said about Janis for how many years? Would be nice to have guys on special teams that are actually developing into a full time starter or are decent backups at minimum. Devoting one roster spot to just a gunner or returner is a luxury that I didn't think Janis was worth and not so sure Davis is either.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Devoting one roster spot to just a gunner or returner is a luxury that I didn't think Janis was worth and not so sure Davis is either.

If the Packers don't find an adequate replacement for Davis as a punt returner it's probable that he would have more impact than the sixth receiver on the depth chart not contributing on special teams though.

 

[rodell330]

BJ Sanders wasn't even good in college. (Yes, I know he won the Ray Guy, but he was still meh). Him getting drafted in the 3rd round is just boggling.

Saying Scott might not work bc Sanders didn't is just a poor argument. Saying Scott will work because he got drafted high is a poor argument. Saying Scott will work because he's performed very well all 4 years of college and has scouts saying he does things they pretty much never see is a good argument.

Umm yes he was. He wasn’t that great as a
Pro, but he was good at Ohio State I know this first hand.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If the Packers don't find an adequate replacement for Davis as a punt returner it's probable that he would have more impact than the sixth receiver on the depth chart not contributing on special teams though.

Yes, that could be the case, but could also mean you are potentially giving up on a rookie WR who may have developed in time. Davis so far in 2 years hasn't shown much as a WR, 8 catches on 14 targets. The Packers might have a tough decision with hanging on to him, if all he provides is a slight upgrade as a return man and very little else.

 

[HardRightEdge]

On the subject of returns, we've been conditioned to overlook the KO return position as marginalized by past rule changes that put an inordiante number of balls in the end zone while the 25 yard line touchback placement served as a deterrent to running back those kicks. And when KOs are run back, changes to the blocking rules and enforcement of those rules have made the long return an endangered species.

Some voices have advocated eliminating the KO altogether as a boring exercise that ends in a touchback or penalty an inordinate percentage of the time while certainly not elimiating the injury concern.

The NFL went the other way in revitalizing the play:

https://www.packerforum.com/threads/training-camp-position-battles.79280/page-11#

Note that the KO team can no longer get a 5 yard running start before the kick, having to line up within one yard of the LOS. On the other side of the ball, at least 8 players must be within the 10 - 25 yards off the LOS (15 yard "set-up" zone) whereas before they could be anywhere past 10 yards from the LOS.

As noted in the link, the idea is to make tackler/blocker collisions less violent and nearer the LOS.

I see the intent and what will be the result as a net advantage to the return team. The KO team not getting a running start is the overwighted consideration, adding a couple of tenths to anybody's time to the receiver if unimpeded, and he's still going to be impeded and easier to block as he approaches the 10 yard buffer at lower speed. The returners should get a few more yards of free run before encountering resistance.

So, the KO return position should be less of an afterthought. Montgomery? Probably unless he regains #1 back status. I see that #1 back job going to Williams as the most complete run/catch/block option. His gradual improvement in patience and timing running the ball through the course of last season suggests more upside.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Monty might be an option on Kickoffs, I think he was decent his rookie year, but pedestrian his second year. I also recall him making a very "smart play" where he fielded the ball while intentionally standing out of bounds by the 5 yard line, thus making the kick "out of bounds" and a penalty. I love when players know the rules and use their brains, those are the types of players you want to see in there and making smart decisions on returns. Davis at times seemed clueless on when to and when not to field punts, that could be coaching, but I think it starts early in a players development and either you have it or you don't.

 

[Poppa San]

Monty might be an option on Kickoffs, I think he was decent his rookie year, but pedestrian his second year. I also recall him making a very "smart play" where he fielded the ball while intentionally standing out of bounds by the 5 yard line, thus making the kick "out of bounds" and a penalty. I love when players know the rules and use their brains, those are the types of players you want to see in there and making smart decisions on returns. Davis at times seemed clueless on when to and when not to field punts, that could be coaching, but I think it starts early in a players development and either you have it or you don't.

This one?

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I recall the announcers and probably shoutbox whining about such a bonehead play until the ref's call was announced.

 

[sschind]

Agreed.

That was said about Janis for how many years? Would be nice to have guys on special teams that are actually developing into a full time starter or are decent backups at minimum. Devoting one roster spot to just a gunner or returner is a luxury that I didn't think Janis was worth and not so sure Davis is either.

If the Packers don't find an adequate replacement for Davis as a punt returner it's probable that he would have more impact than the sixth receiver on the depth chart not contributing on special teams though.

I agreed with Poker because I feel the same way but Wimm has a good point. A better return man or gunner is probably going to help the team more than the sixth WR who never sees the field.

 

[sschind]

Umm yes he was. He wasn’t that great as a
Pro, but he was good at Ohio State I know this first hand.

A punter who wasn't that good in college does not get drafted in the third round I don't care how stupid the GM is

 

[PikeBadger]

A punter who wasn't that good in college does not get drafted in the third round I don't care how stupid the GM is

If I remember correctly, Sherman traded up to that 3rd round slot too.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I would think that they will give a few guys a shot to see what they can do back there. Davis’s decision making is terrible but he has shown he can be dangerous. I would guess that guys like Aaron Jones, Rollins, Jackson, Moore and Hawkins might also be possible candidates.

Referring to pro-football-reference.com's college stats section, I find the following college punt / KO return career stats:

Jones: 0 punts/ 0 KOs, evidently never returned a kick of any kind in college
Rollins: ditto; I had forgotten he only played one year of college football, switching from basketball
Jackson: 5 for 36 yds on punts/ 0 KOs
Moore: 0 / 0, another zero return experience guy
Hawkins: 0 / 0, ditto

Alexander: 43 / 424 yds on punts/ 0 KOs; quite a bit of punt return work as a freshman and sophomore; only one return as a junior
St. Brown: 0 / 0; we've heard tales that daddy would not allow him to play special teams
M. V-S: 0 punts/ 2 for 29 yds on KOs; next to no experience
Allison: 0 / 0; nada
Pipkins: nada
Clark: nada
King: nada
Goodson: 0 punts / 5 KOs for 149 yards; good numbers but not much to go on
Williams: nada
Mays: nada

Alexander aside, If you threw 14 darts at a list of the last 2 years junior and senior WR/DB/RB pro prospects 100 times you might not find so little collective return experience. It's as though the Packers have conciously omiitted those talents from consideration in the evaluation process.

A seemingly forgotten fact about Davis in this conversation: he was the KO man last season, accounting for 31 of 35 returns averaging 22.8 yds.

So, the question becomes, as is so often the case, "who else ya got?" Alexander or Cobb for punts? Nothing I'd want to see. KOs? Montgomery seems to be the only viable option and that's not all that great an idea given his propensity for injury..

Will somebody else with zero or near zero college or pro experience come out of the woodwork and do better than Davis? Highly unlikely. Sign a free agent return specialist? If the Packers were looking to go away from Davis, in the draft or FA, it would have happened by now. There were lots of low round picks this year to go grab one at least to compete.

I come to what some might find a shocking conclusion: the Packers have already committed to Davis as the de facto punt and KO return specialist. And just think...with Janis gone, it's now 1 WR postion dedicated to special teams duty instead of 2. Win, win, right?

Trevor Davis: find the love in your heart.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Davis has actually done a pretty good job returning punts ranking third in the leagge averaging 12.0 yards. While he definitely has to make better decisions one of the rookies would have to impress for the Packers to release Davis.

I think what critics of Davis have observed is that: (1) he too often fair catches when there's free run room available and (2) he lets too many reachable balls hit the ground in front of him instead of coming up to fair catch. As regards point (2), it takes steely nerves to come up fair catching, head up, into the on-rushing crowd. Not everybody is going to be following the rules in those instances, accidentally or otherwise. You can get your head taken off.

From the standoint of known risks being assumed as part of the job, Davis does have the look of making too many business decisions.

Rule changes not withstanding, miniute-for-minute, play-for-play, returning punts may be the most dangerous job in all of team sports. It takes a unique temperament, a unique skill set to keep one eye on the ball and one eye on who's coming at you and assessing the path of least resistance, while having a knack for knowing when to fair catch to live another day and when to giddyup.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

With the break down of the new rules for KO I like the idea of Monty returning kicks. I don't see him becoming the No. 1 RB, so he's pretty much a chess piece on the team. I'd then line up Cobb or Alexander next to him. I can't necessarily see Goodson making the team in light of the recent Draft, but if he was to I don't see a reason why we can't throw him out there in the preseason to see what he's got.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes, that could be the case, but could also mean you are potentially giving up on a rookie WR who may have developed in time. Davis so far in 2 years hasn't shown much as a WR, 8 catches on 14 targets. The Packers might have a tough decision with hanging on to him, if all he provides is a slight upgrade as a return man and very little else.

I don't expect Davis to contribute as a wide receiver either entering this season. With only 53 spots available teams unfortunately have to release some players who might develop into decent pros.

With the break down of the new rules for KO I like the idea of Monty returning kicks. I don't see him becoming the No. 1 RB, so he's pretty much a chess piece on the team. I'd then line up Cobb or Alexander next to him. I can't necessarily see Goodson making the team in light of the recent Draft, but if he was to I don't see a reason why we can't throw him out there in the preseason to see what he's got.

Cobb has only returned two kickoffs over the past five seasons and as HRE pointed out Alexander and Goodspn lack experience at it as well. That will most likely leave Davis and Montgomery as the primary options.

 

[Half Empty]

If I remember correctly, Sherman traded up to that 3rd round slot too.

Just an all-around poop-fest of a draft - http://www0.nfl.packers.com/draft/2004/

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Just an all-around poop-fest of a draft - http://www0.nfl.packers.com/draft/2004/

Damn.....Sherman really was that bad. The best player from that Draft was Wells; and he was grabbed in the 7th Round! Sherman must've just gotten lucky.