Training Camp Position Battles

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HardRightEdge

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I don't expect Davis to contribute as a wide receiver either entering this season. With only 53 spots available teams unfortunately have to release some players who might develop into decent pros.

Cobb has only returned two kickoffs over the past five seasons and as HRE pointed out Alexander and Goodspn lack experience at it as well. That will most likely leave Davis and Montgomery as the primary options.
While NFL football in general is a dangerous occupation, returning punts and kickoffs are the most dangerous jobs. That should always be the starting point and the backdrop that runs throughout the dicussion.

Again, it boils down tto the following plausible options:

Punt returns: Davis, Cobb or Alexander

KO returns: Davis or Montgomery.

Let's break down those 3 Davis alternatives.

Montgomery may look like the most plausible option. He might be viewed as the #3 RB or a matchup option out of the slot. This overlooks something. Odds are Jones is staring down the barrel of suspension:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...es-pleads-no-contest-marijuana-related-charge

That you have not heard anything yet on the matter is no "all clear":

"Jones could still be subject to a suspension from the NFL, but the league wasn't expected to act until the legal case was resolved" which, as the article states, wasn't resolved until the end of February. Jones is probably in "the program" as we speak. Similar incidents for a first violations often earn a 2 game suspension. That elevates Montgomery to #2 RB and not the cannon fodder one might think. Then there's the prudence of building a roster where Montgomery is relied up to be your 16 game kick returner who has been injury prone throughout his pro career. Further, even if Jones somehow evades a suspension, he only got a smattering of carries after coming back from the MCL sprain last season. In college he had one on the other knee. Availability and possibly degraded performance are open issues leaving open the possibility that Montgomery would be the #2 even after that possible suspensiion.

Cobb's history as a punt returner is fairly typical among high pick/front line players who take the job in their first couple of years. Pat Peterson is another example. They do great for a year or two then start to slide. Why might that happen? There are a couple of possibilities. Youthful enthusiam in earning their bones wanes as their position bones are earned. The demands of position play over a long season or two wears on that enthusiasm. They start eyeing that second contract and business decisions come into play. And once you start looking around for core and star players in second contracts being regular punt or KO returners, they get increasingly hard to find. They may have achieved the status to say, "I'd rather not" either from lost enthusiam or protecting the unguaranteed money. I do not see Cobb returning punts except as an injury backup. And while I'd expect him to be serviceable at this stage, how many chances do you think he'd take in a contract year?

That leaves Alexander, a rookie, a high pick with high expectations, in the vein of Cobb and Peterson coming in. And as noted above, he's the only young player with any college punt return experience to suggest he can do the job. From that perspective it makes sense. But I don't like that idea for the same reason I don't like Alexander playing nickel corner. Alexander is a particularly aggressive player of slighter stature. You don't want to stifle that aggressiveness. Experience will teach him how to pick his spots against bigger/stronger/faster opponents. Put him an nickel instead of perimeter and the likelihood he takes on punishment from RBs, FBs, H-backs and OLs goes up. Putting that aggressive disposition in that frame returning punts and you have a high risk proposition.

I won't say the Packers won't try Alexander on punts. I'd actually expect they will in camp if for no other other reason than to have an emergency backup option for Davis that is not named Cobb. But I won't have to like it.
 

Dantés

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Seems like, as expected, McCray is locked in at RG. Obviously he has plenty left to prove, but this highlights what I consider to be the Packers’ biggest competitive advantage outside of Rodgers: James Campen.

Bakhtiari was a 4th rounder and he’s elite.

Taylor was undrafted and is above average.

Linsley was a 5th round pick and is above average.

Now we have the potential of McCray, also undrafted, becoming a solid starter.

Going back further, you have...

Sitton, who was an elite guard found in the 4th.

Lang, who was an excellent guard found in the 4th.

Wells, who was a 7th round waivee who developed into a solid center under Campen.

This consistency in finding good to great OL starters in the middle rounds, late rounds, or undrafted is unequaled in the league. And this is all happening during an era when good OL play is getting progressively harder to find.

I don’t know what they’re paying Campen, but it isn’t enough.

It also bears mentioning that TT’s approach to these positions clearly worked well. I wonder how the trolls explain that? Because I’ve been told that the man couldn’t tie his shoes.
 

Dantés

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While NFL football in general is a dangerous occupation, returning punts and kickoffs are the most dangerous jobs. That should always be the starting point and the backdrop that runs throughout the dicussion.

Again, it boils down tto the following plausible options:

Punt returns: Davis, Cobb or Alexander

KO returns: Davis or Montgomery.

Let's break down those 3 Davis alternatives.

Montgomery may look like the most plausible option. He might be viewed as the #3 RB or a matchup option out of the slot. This overlooks something. Odds are Jones is staring down the barrel of suspension:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...es-pleads-no-contest-marijuana-related-charge

That you have not heard anything yet on the matter is no "all clear":

"Jones could still be subject to a suspension from the NFL, but the league wasn't expected to act until the legal case was resolved" which, as the article states, wasn't resolved until the end of February. Jones is probably in "the program" as we speak. Similar incidents for a first violations often earn a 2 game suspension. That elevates Montgomery to #2 RB and not the cannon fodder one might think. Then there's the prudence of building a roster where Montgomery is relied up to be your 16 game kick returner who has been injury prone throughout his pro career. Further, even if Jones somehow evades a suspension, he only got a smattering of carries after coming back from the MCL sprain last season. In college he had one on the other knee. Availability and possibly degraded performance are open issues leaving open the possibility that Montgomery would be the #2 even after that possible suspensiion.

Cobb's history as a punt returner is fairly typical among high pick/front line players who take the job in their first couple of years. Pat Peterson is another example. They do great for a year or two then start to slide. Why might that happen? There are a couple of possibilities. Youthful enthusiam in earning their bones wanes as their position bones are earned. The demands of position play over a long season or two wears on that enthusiasm. They start eyeing that second contract and business decisions come into play. And once you start looking around for core and star players in second contracts being regular punt or KO returners, they get increasingly hard to find. They may have achieved the status to say, "I'd rather not" either from lost enthusiam or protecting the unguaranteed money. I do not see Cobb returning punts except as an injury backup. And while I'd expect him to be serviceable at this stage, how many chances do you think he'd take in a contract year?

That leaves Alexander, a rookie, a high pick with high expectations, in the vein of Cobb and Peterson coming in. And as noted above, he's the only young player with any college punt return experience to suggest he can do the job. From that perspective it makes sense. But I don't like that idea for the same reason I don't like Alexander playing nickel corner. Alexander is a particularly aggressive player of slighter stature. You don't want to stifle that aggressiveness. Experience will teach him how to pick his spots against bigger/stronger/faster opponents. Put him an nickel instead of perimeter and the likelihood he takes on punishment from RBs, FBs, H-backs and OLs goes up. Putting that aggressive disposition in that frame returning punts and you have a high risk proposition.

I won't say the Packers won't try Alexander on punts. I'd actually expect they will in camp if for no other other reason than to have an emergency backup option for Davis that is not named Cobb. But I won't have to like it.

I think that Cobb and Alexander will be too important to the offense and defense respectively to risk their health on PR duty.

To me, it’s Ty or Davis. If Montgomery could take over, great. Cut Davis and keep another of the lottery ticket wide receivers. But if they don’t see him that way or he can’t do it, they’re going to have to keep Davis.
 
D

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Seems like, as expected, McCray is locked in at RG. Obviously he has plenty left to prove, but this highlights what I consider to be the Packers’ biggest competitive advantage outside of Rodgers: James Campen.

Bakhtiari was a 4th rounder and he’s elite.

Taylor was undrafted and is above average.

Linsley was a 5th round pick and is above average.

Now we have the potential of McCray, also undrafted, becoming a solid starter.

Going back further, you have...

Sitton, who was an elite guard found in the 4th.

Lang, who was an excellent guard found in the 4th.

Wells, who was a 7th round waivee who developed into a solid center under Campen.

This consistency in finding good to great OL starters in the middle rounds, late rounds, or undrafted is unequaled in the league. And this is all happening during an era when good OL play is getting progressively harder to find.

I don’t know what they’re paying Campen, but it isn’t enough.

It also bears mentioning that TT’s approach to these positions clearly worked well. I wonder how the trolls explain that? Because I’ve been told that the man couldn’t tie his shoes.

Campen definitely deserves credit for the work he has done developing late round and undrafted offensive linemen. I haven't seen any reasonable poster criticizing Thompson for his record selecting OL on the third day of the draft.
 

PikeBadger

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Seems like, as expected, McCray is locked in at RG. Obviously he has plenty left to prove, but this highlights what I consider to be the Packers’ biggest competitive advantage outside of Rodgers: James Campen.

Bakhtiari was a 4th rounder and he’s elite.

Taylor was undrafted and is above average.

Linsley was a 5th round pick and is above average.

Now we have the potential of McCray, also undrafted, becoming a solid starter.

Going back further, you have...

Sitton, who was an elite guard found in the 4th.

Lang, who was an excellent guard found in the 4th.

Wells, who was a 7th round waivee who developed into a solid center under Campen.

This consistency in finding good to great OL starters in the middle rounds, late rounds, or undrafted is unequaled in the league. And this is all happening during an era when good OL play is getting progressively harder to find.

I don’t know what they’re paying Campen, but it isn’t enough.

It also bears mentioning that TT’s approach to these positions clearly worked well. I wonder how the trolls explain that? Because I’ve been told that the man couldn’t tie his shoes.
Pretty amazing record and there were others that began as Packers backups, left and became starters with other teams such as Tretter, Giocomini and Barbre. All of these guys and the ones you mentioned needed development and got it here.
 

PikeBadger

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Campen definitely deserves credit for the work he has done developing late round and undrafted offensive linemen. I haven't seen any reasonable poster criticizing Thompson for his record selecting OL on the third day of the draft.
Lol, The shoutbox must have a shortage of reasonable posters. No player, coach or GM is spared in there.
 

Dantés

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Campen definitely deserves credit for the work he has done developing late round and undrafted offensive linemen. I haven't seen any reasonable poster criticizing Thompson for his record selecting OL on the third day of the draft.

That shot was probably unnecessary. I was thinking of those that refuse to give him credit for anything. I just can’t help myself sometimes.
 

PikeBadger

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Referring to pro-football-reference.com's college stats section, I find the following college punt / KO return career stats:

Jones: 0 punts/ 0 KOs, evidently never returned a kick of any kind in college
Rollins: ditto; I had forgotten he only played one year of college football, switching from basketball
Jackson: 5 for 36 yds on punts/ 0 KOs
Moore: 0 / 0, another zero return experience guy
Hawkins: 0 / 0, ditto

Alexander: 43 / 424 yds on punts/ 0 KOs; quite a bit of punt return work as a freshman and sophomore; only one return as a junior
St. Brown: 0 / 0; we've heard tales that daddy would not allow him to play special teams
M. V-S: 0 punts/ 2 for 29 yds on KOs; next to no experience
Allison: 0 / 0; nada
Pipkins: nada
Clark: nada
King: nada
Goodson: 0 punts / 5 KOs for 149 yards; good numbers but not much to go on
Williams: nada
Mays: nada

Alexander aside, If you threw 14 darts at a list of the last 2 years junior and senior WR/DB/RB pro prospects 100 times you might not find so little collective return experience. It's as though the Packers have conciously omiitted those talents from consideration in the evaluation process.

A seemingly forgotten fact about Davis in this conversation: he was the KO man last season, accounting for 31 of 35 returns averaging 22.8 yds.

So, the question becomes, as is so often the case, "who else ya got?" Alexander or Cobb for punts? Nothing I'd want to see. KOs? Montgomery seems to be the only viable option and that's not all that great an idea given his propensity for injury..

Will somebody else with zero or near zero college or pro experience come out of the woodwork and do better than Davis? Highly unlikely. Sign a free agent return specialist? If the Packers were looking to go away from Davis, in the draft or FA, it would have happened by now. There were lots of low round picks this year to go grab one at least to compete.

I come to what some might find a shocking conclusion: the Packers have already committed to Davis as the de facto punt and KO return specialist. :eek: And just think...with Janis gone, it's now 1 WR postion dedicated to special teams duty instead of 2. Win, win, right?

Trevor Davis: find the love in your heart. ;)
I’ve seen the Packers try out guys for PR and KR duty who didn’t have prior experience.
 

AmishMafia

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I investigated the shout box archive to see if it was as bad as the above posters suggest. Immediately saw a conversation Poppa San was having regarding his colon. It will be a few years before I venture back, if ever. *shudder* sweet mother Mary and Joseph.
 

PikeBadger

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I investigated the shout box archive to see if it was as bad as the above posters suggest. Immediately saw a conversation Poppa San was having regarding his colon. It will be a few years before I venture back, if ever. *shudder* sweet mother Mary and Joseph.
Been there on game day? Actually it didn’t occur to me that people actually used the shoutbox except during games
 

AmishMafia

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Been there on game day? Actually it didn’t occur to me that people actually used the shoutbox except during games
A few years ago, living in vegas and the game wasnt on TV. Very difficult to believe how much hatred some Packer fans have towards the Packers.
 

Poppa San

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I investigated the shout box archive to see if it was as bad as the above posters suggest. Immediately saw a conversation Poppa San was having regarding his colon. It will be a few years before I venture back, if ever. *shudder* sweet mother Mary and Joseph.
I'm fine. Thanks for your concern.
 
I

I asked LT to delete my acct

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I investigated the shout box archive to see if it was as bad as the above posters suggest. Immediately saw a conversation Poppa San was having regarding his colon. It will be a few years before I venture back, if ever. *shudder* sweet mother Mary and Joseph.


Probably you lot that gave him a problem with his colon in the first place....lol ;)
 

PikeBadger

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Imo, good punt/kick return teams (top 10 in league) are more a product of good blocking. There are very few Desmond Howards out there. Most teams have 3-5 really fast or really quick or elusive guys who would seemingly be suited as a returner if they can track, catch and hang on to the ball. Vision, timing, good decision-making and nerve is very useful as well. I see it as an art. Davis doesn’t strike me as artistic, just fast.

Once upon a time in the late 90’s early 00’s we had multiple guys with PR touchdowns. Great blocking unit where even guys like Mike Pryor and Darren Sharper had success.
 

Mondio

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I know I've said it 5 times already probably, but if any of those WRs show they can add to the offense, all that is going to be required to drop Davis is for someone else to show than can field a punt cleanly and consistently.
 
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I know I've said it 5 times already probably, but if any of those WRs show they can add to the offense, all that is going to be required to drop Davis is for someone else to show than can field a punt cleanly and consistently.

The Packers need someone capable of returning a punt on an adequate level as well though.
 

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