Studs n duds Cowboys

[Pugger]

Good summary. I thought the Packers considered getting MLF an assistant to handle these situations. Because it sure seems like both MLF and to a lesser extent, Love, lose sight of down and distance, time remaining, time out management, and the like.

Some coaches can call plays and still stay aware of the game situation. MLF just can't do that and so mistakes are made.

I don't mind that he wanted to get more points before half time. But with so little time left it required his total attention, and he can't do that and call plays. Love has a tendency to panic when he's in these situations - going for points when there is little time left, and maybe one TO remaining. That requires passing and when Love is pressured, he occasionally forgets where he is. He should have "heard" footsteps when the play was slow to develop and before the Cowboys stripped the ball from him.

MLF should understand the strengths and weaknesses of his team, esp his QB. But MLF and Love suffer from the same problem, a tendency to panic when time is tight, as it always is with less than 2 minutes, or 30 seconds. They need help but can't get it from each other. I hope that Gluten and Policy saw this Sunday night and can fix it.

This team has too much talent and too much promise to lose games they should win, and all because of poor decision making at crunch time.

With a patchwork OL we shouldn't be aggressive in that situation. Run out the clock and go into the half with a 2 score lead.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I agree. And once that clock gets under a minute his full attention should be on scoring imho. I also don't think it's as important as a lot of people to force the opponent to use timeouts. You just have to stop them. Concentrate on what you are doing and them taking timeouts will just happen because you are successful in executing plays.

Agree and this whole "Lets burn our timeouts on defense while the opponent is ramming the ball down our throats to score with under a minute to go in the first half, needs to stop. Now that might have worked with Rodgers, giving him the ball and 80 yards to go in under 30 seconds, but Love hasn't excelled in that area and MLF needs to stop calling timeouts on defense in that situation. The other thing it does, it gives the opponents offense more time to figure out just how to attack and score. The Dallas game was a case study for MLF in why his strategy sucks.

 

[Pugger]

I tried battery powered socks 20yrs ago and didn't think that they did anything. I suppose that I should give them a try again someday. I assume that they've gotten better.

I'm with you on the cheeseheads, or big hats in general. I wore a "gifted" cheese hat to an away game and the fans behind me kept knocking it off. I never wore it again and a squirrel eventually tore huge chunks out of it thinking it was food.

I'm definitely a stand-on-3rd-or-4th-down person. One of my good friends almost got into it with a drunk 20yr old Lions fan last year. Not only was he standing from the start, but standing on the bench...and the kid was easily over 6ft tall. Some people are idiots, and he was eventually removed by an usher, but a good game sometimes requires standing for long stretches - not for the whole game though.

You don't want to be sitting behind somebody wearing those stupid cheeseheads. They block your view.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Gute should also be listening, because ultimately, his job is on the line too.

I am in no way saying "Fire MLF!" Nor do I feel I am overreacting from just one game. The things that I and several of you are pointing out, are the issues that have plagued the Packers for years. Now somebody is going to say "MLF is a winning coach, don't change a thing." No? Then how do you get better? How do you make it to a Super Bowl? Because for whatever reason(s), we aren't winning the big games and we are losing games we should gave won.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You don't want to be sitting behind somebody wearing those stupid cheeseheads. They block your view.

It has happened to me a few times and both times I politely explained the situation to the person and both times, they said "Oh my god, I didn't even think about that, I will remove it, and they did." But don't blame me if an arrogant fan, like we saw at the Ryder Cup, punches you for making the request.

 

[OldSchool101]

Agree. While it is easy for us to sit in our Barcaloungers and play armchair QB, MLF has a simple answer to have the same luxury, hire a fricking fulltime OC! Give him a seat up in the boxes, where he and his staff have access to monitors, replays, charts, stats, graphs and beer!

Yes, MLF has a brilliant offensive mind, but the same problem keeps rearing its ugly head, he can't seem to juggle 3 things at once....play calling, clock management and in game adjustments.

As some of us have pointed to, he can still stay fully involved in the offense during practices and meetings, but on game day, hand play calling off to a full time OC.

I REALLY think this would help. We’ve had independent coaches recently come in to offer some perspective.
Find someone who has notable experience and success in that area. Heck it can be a limited Role just for being at the actual games as an Advisory role, with some training emphasis for players and coaches alike.
Almost like retired NFL QB who was known for being highly efficient using the Clock. I’m speaking to the mental aspect of the game. Some might laugh, but I’ve noticed Tony Romo can sit there and call the next play on games he’s at. He’s just got a knack for understanding how to milk every second he’s often better than the guys on the field imo. Not saying him, but someone along those lines hired as a consultant.

 

[Voyageur]

Gute should also be listening, because ultimately, his job is on the line too.

I am in no way saying "Fire MLF!" Nor do I feel I am overreacting from just one game. The things that I and several of you are pointing out, are the issues that have plagued the Packers for years. Now somebody is going to say "MLF is a winning coach, don't change a thing." No? Then how do you get better? How do you make it to a Super Bowl? Because for whatever reason(s), we aren't winning the big games and we are losing games we should gave won.

Winning coaches don't necessarily keep their jobs over extended periods of time when they don't win championships. A coach can win 15 games a year and get blown out in the playoffs and eventually the fans and ownership are going to say they've gone as far as they can with the coaching staff and they need to get someone in who can take them to the next level.

 

[adambr2]

I don't hate MLF at all. What I do think MLF needs to get better at is in game adjustments, as well as game/clock management.

Here is what he said after the game.

“That just goes to the level of detail where we’re not where we need to be,” LaFleur said of the game’s final plays. Immediately before the incomplete pass in the end zone, Love completed a pass for a loss of a yard inbounds that kept the clock running.

LaFleur added: “The operation was way too slow. Ultimately, the communication’s gotta get better.”

“It’s something that we gotta fix, we gotta clean up and be better,” Love said of the sequence.

Ok. Here’s my issue with this. Yes, it needs to be cleaned up. It needs to be fixed. Yet here we are, in year 7, and it’s not fixed.

It’s not like this is a brand new issue that just started manifesting itself in the last year. Rodgers was complaining about tempo and clock management in the 2 minute drill 3 years ago. Remember the sight of MLF and Bisaccia staring at each other as they bungled week 18 late against the Bears to finish last season?

So what is the “plan” to fix it? It’s not like it’s been a lack of desire to fix it or a lack of awareness of it. As far as I can tell, it’s the simple fact that Matt Lafleur can’t do what he thinks he can, or his ego won’t let him admit that he can’t: manage the many different details of thought and multitasking required throughout the course of a game — clock management, playcalling, challenges, etc.

As far as I can tell, the only plan to fix it has been to assign the 65 year old special teams coordinator to the assistant HC position, a plan which, to be blunt, has failed spectacularly. Not only does Bisaccia seem incapable of aiding MLF in these decisions in any way, you could legitimately argue that the position has taken away from his attention to detail on special teams, which has consequently suffered greatly.

So again I ask, if the only real “plan” at this point is “we gotta do better”, and we are in our 7th season of not doing better at it, why would anyone have any faith that that is going to change?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Ok. Here’s my issue with this. Yes, it needs to be cleaned up. It needs to be fixed. Yet here we are, in year 7, and it’s not fixed.

It’s not like this is a brand new issue that just started manifesting itself in the last year. Rodgers was complaining about tempo and clock management in the 2 minute drill 3 years ago. Remember the sight of MLF and Bisaccia staring at each other as they bungled week 18 late against the Bears to finish last season?

So what is the “plan” to fix it? It’s not like it’s been a lack of desire to fix it or a lack of awareness of it. As far as I can tell, it’s the simple fact that Matt Lafleur can’t do what he thinks he can, or his ego won’t let him admit that he can’t: manage the many different details of thought and multitasking required throughout the course of a game — clock management, playcalling, challenges, etc.

As far as I can tell, the only plan to fix it has been to assign the 65 year old special teams coordinator to the assistant HC position, a plan which, to be blunt, has failed spectacularly. Not only does Bisaccia seem incapable of aiding MLF in these decisions in any way, you could legitimately argue that the position has taken away from his attention to detail on special teams, which has consequently suffered greatly.

So again I ask, if the only real “plan” at this point is “we gotta do better”, and we are in our 7th season of not doing better at it, why would anyone have any faith that that is going to change?

You my friend are correct and blunt. In the end, if this year is a "failure", as defined by Ed Policy and the Board of Directors, then it may be a house cleaning.

Here is what I see as the "blockade" for that. Profits are still soaring and will continue to soar. The waiting list for season tickets goes up every year. The Packers and other NFL organizations only need to have winning seasons and appear to be throwing everything they have at it, and the billions keep rolling in.

Why take a chance of going back to the Devine times? 10-7 season and a playoff appearance?

Board/Policy: "How's are profits?"

Maureen Smith (CFO): "Off the charts, we can all take raises!"

****CHEERING CAN BE HEARD IN BOARDROOM****

"Book it for another season, we will promise the fans that we will do better!"

Packer Fans: "I can't wait for the 2026 season, I just bought the NFL Package!"

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Winning coaches don't necessarily keep their jobs over extended periods of time when they don't win championships. A coach can win 15 games a year and get blown out in the playoffs and eventually the fans and ownership are going to say they've gone as far as they can with the coaching staff and they need to get someone in who can take them to the next level.

Yes, but as I said above, if profits are soaring and the team is making the playoffs, only a loud angry fan base and 1-2 losing season usually gets that done. *see Mike McCarthy*

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I REALLY think this would help. We’ve had independent coaches recently come in to offer some perspective.
Find someone who has notable experience and success in that area. Heck it can be a limited Role just for being at the actual games as an Advisory role, with some training emphasis for players and coaches alike.
Almost like retired NFL QB who was known for being highly efficient using the Clock. I’m speaking to the mental aspect of the game. Some might laugh, but I’ve noticed Tony Romo can sit there and call the next play on games he’s at. He’s just got a knack for understanding how to milk every second he’s often better than the guys on the field imo. Not saying him, but someone along those lines hired as a consultant.

If Gute and MLF don't see this problem on their own and have to hire an outside advisor to tell them it exists, than I think that in itself is an issue.

 

[tynimiller]

Winning coaches don't necessarily keep their jobs over extended periods of time when they don't win championships. A coach can win 15 games a year and get blown out in the playoffs and eventually the fans and ownership are going to say they've gone as far as they can with the coaching staff and they need to get someone in who can take them to the next level.

Which backfires on a team that cuts a successful and good HC more than it doesn't IMO or at minimum is very much a toss up...

Andy Reid - goes and becomes an even better coach in KC (yes having Mahomes helps....BUT he was winning in KC from the jump for four years before Mahomes.
Marty Schottenheimer - a great example of a guy that just kept winning all over wherever he went...just never could push over the hump...but I'd argue Cleveland NEVER should have dropped him after winning 32 games over three years...Cleveland would have losing seasons 8 of the next ten years...
Tony Dungy - Everyone points to the fact TB won a SB in Gruden's first year but a ton of the foundation was laid and overhauled under Dungy who only his first year was sub .500 which is incredible over six years given the team he inherited had 14 straight losing record seasons (often times with 4 or fewer wins). TB would flirt with success a couple times under Gruden but was much a rollercoaster and than hit 11 straight non-playoff years.

It is quite rare to locate teams that have fired or chose not to re-up a coach with playoff after playoff success for the most part...but a few examples where some would say a team is "better" that have recently...sorry only put one cuz time was pulled away from me able to write this on lunch

Mike McCarthy - GB is better of according to many opinions switching to MLF from the SB winning coach (who is a solid but maybe not great coach for sure).

 

[gopkrs]

Yes, but as I said above, if profits are soaring and the team is making the playoffs, only a loud angry fan base and 1-2 losing season usually gets that done. *see Mike McCarthy*

I am not nearly as cynical as you. They want to win and they are not thinking they are making money so don't rock the boat. We have had good teams. But my own thought is that LaFleur has to micro manage the coaches more, not the players so much. I think some of the coaches need help. Like special teams and O line. And now the DB coach. Giving them 1st downs, and when the game is on the line. Just can't do that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But my own thought is that LaFleur has to micro manage the coaches more, not the players so much. I think some of the coaches need help. Like special teams and O line. And now the DB coach.

Honestly, this is the last thing that MLF needs on an already full plate, is having to micromanage his coaches, especially in game. Positional coaches, coordinators, etc. all have a specific job to do. I get during coaching meetings our one on one with MLF, strategies are talked about and planned. However, when the game starts, man your posts and do your fricking job.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I am not nearly as cynical as you. They want to win and they are not thinking they are making money so don't rock the boat.

While this might be the optimistic fan perspective, I doubt that if you asked 31 NFL owners which means more to them, their bank statements and team value or a Lombardi, 100% of them would whisper "It's all about the money man."

I really don't think it is different up in Green Bay. Loosing seasons and lots of fan grumbling will be the only thing that cost HC's and GM's their jobs.

 

[El Guapo]

If that is the case, it doesn't seem to be working and in the process, special teams (Bisaccia's duties) has gotten worse.

On the Packers Plus podcast, Tom Silverstein reminded listeners about what Holmgren ended up having to do for special teams. He made ALL of the coaches responsible for ST. There was still the ST coach, but the OL coach was working with the ST blockers, the WR coach was working with the ST'ers, etc.

Mike Wahle mentioned this week that due to time restraints in the current CBA, most teams really don't spend the time working on key ST moments. They don't practice things the way that they used to. That could just be a retired player saying that the game isn't the same as in his day, but he is still actively coaching football (albeit in Germany) and actively following the NFL.

 

[gopkrs]

Honestly, this is the last thing that MLF needs on an already full plate, is having to micromanage his coaches, especially in game. Positional coaches, coordinators, etc. all have a specific job to do. I get during coaching meetings our one on one with MLF, strategies are talked about and planned. However, when the game starts, man your posts and do your fricking job.

Not in game

 

[El Guapo]

Which backfires on a team that cuts a successful and good HC more than it doesn't IMO or at minimum is very much a toss up...

Your points are all spot on. The only thing that I would add is that often times a leader's message gets stale. It happens even to the best CEOs, coaches, etc.

Therefore, even a good coach can and should be let go so he can continue with his same message with a different team.

 

[tynimiller]

Your points are all spot on. The only thing that I would add is that often times a leader's message gets stale. It happens even to the best CEOs, coaches, etc.

Therefore, even a good coach can and should be let go so he can continue with his same message with a different team.

100% agree.

Which I actually think is the critique of LaFleur that has defense of substantial nature. He is slow to change.

 

[Pugger]

It has happened to me a few times and both times I politely explained the situation to the person and both times, they said "Oh my god, I didn't even think about that, I will remove it, and they did." But don't blame me if an arrogant fan, like we saw at the Ryder Cup, punches you for making the request.

I haven't been to a game at Lambeau since 2004 and I seriously doubt I'll ever go to a game there again.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Your points are all spot on. The only thing that I would add is that often times a leader's message gets stale. It happens even to the best CEOs, coaches, etc.

Therefore, even a good coach can and should be let go so he can continue with his same message with a different team.

Well....isn't this really a "new" team for MLF? Who has the longest tenure as a Packer player on the team? Gary and Jenkins? It used to be Kenny Clark.

I guess what I am getting at is that there is enough turnover, to keep the coaching somewhat fresh.

Not all Good coaches are able to get it done elsewhere either.

When McCarthy was fired, he spent the next year with a "think tank" of coaches like Jim Haslett, Paul Hackett, and Frank Cignetti Jr. to study NFL trends and analytics, a process that led to his subsequent hiring as the Dallas Cowboys head coach in January 2020. Didn't seem to do him much good.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I haven't been to a game at Lambeau since 2004 and I seriously doubt I'll ever go to a game there again.

It really hasn't changed that much, except you and I are older and we probably have less patience for the BS of drunk fans.

 

[gopkrs]

Honestly, this is the last thing that MLF needs on an already full plate, is having to micromanage his coaches, especially in game. Positional coaches, coordinators, etc. all have a specific job to do. I get during coaching meetings our one on one with MLF, strategies are talked about and planned. However, when the game starts, man your posts and do your fricking job.

I think there are coaching problems on O line, STeams and DBs. Aren't those a head coaches responsibility? Not during games. By then it's too late. What is more important than coordinating all that? Having a handle on each working part? Except maybe making the correct hire in the first place. jmo

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

due to time restraints in the current CBA, most teams really don't spend the time working on key ST moments.

Ahhhh yes....the CBA.....worried about making more money for the team and players, but F the fans and the quality of the play.

 

[OldSchool101]

You my friend are correct and blunt. In the end, if this year is a "failure", as defined by Ed Policy and the Board of Directors, then it may be a house cleaning.

Here is what I see as the "blockade" for that. Profits are still soaring and will continue to soar. The waiting list for season tickets goes up every year. The Packers and other NFL organizations only need to have winning seasons and appear to be throwing everything they have at it, and the billions keep rolling in.

Why take a chance of going back to the Devine times? 10-7 season and a playoff appearance?

Board/Policy: "How's are profits?"

Maureen Smith (CFO): "Off the charts, we can all take raises!"

****CHEERING CAN BE HEARD IN BOARDROOM****

"Book it for another season, we will promise the fans that we will do better!"

Packer Fans: "I can't wait for the 2026 season, I just bought the NFL Package!"

Great idea! The Brass should have some salary tied to Wins, much like we do with conditional draft picks. Doesn’t have to be huge but around 10% swing based on advancing past a Divisional game. +-5% off current.