Studs n duds Cowboys

[El Guapo]

How many turnovers through week 3?

What's the goal here?

Zero turnovers IIRC but held opponents to an average of 15 points. The goal is to keep the opponent from scoring so if they do that all season without getting turnovers, I'll take it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Trust me I have Detroit fans in my family.....they hate Dan as much situationally as you guys hate MLF though....

I don't hate MLF at all. What I do think MLF needs to get better at is in game adjustments, as well as game/clock management.

Here is what he said after the game.

“That just goes to the level of detail where we’re not where we need to be,” LaFleur said of the game’s final plays. Immediately before the incomplete pass in the end zone, Love completed a pass for a loss of a yard inbounds that kept the clock running.

LaFleur added: “The operation was way too slow. Ultimately, the communication’s gotta get better.”

“It’s something that we gotta fix, we gotta clean up and be better,” Love said of the sequence.

 

[RicFlairoftheNFL]

What's the goal here?

Zero turnovers IIRC but held opponents to an average of 15 points. The goal is to keep the opponent from scoring so if they do that all season without getting turnovers, I'll take it.

When you're pushing a 'ball hawk' narrative and not hitting the narrative, that's still a problem

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

What happened to LaFleur's "all gas no brakes" philosophy?

That is news to me, because he wasn't that way last night. The one time he appeared to be "all gas" was during the Lions last possession of the first half and he has done this before. Calling timeouts with under a minute on the game clock, thinking that he will get the ball back and score before half.

Unless your defense is just totally gassed, I disagree with this strategy. Don't give the offense time to rest and consider plays. Last night that strategy completely blew up in his face when the Lions scored 2 TD's in the final 41 seconds of the first half. MLF doesn't call the timeout, the half ends with the Packers up 13-9.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

When you're pushing a 'ball hawk' narrative and not hitting the narrative, that's still a problem

Yup and there was all this preseason talk about the Packers working hard at punching balls out and creating turnovers. I haven't seen that yet.

BTW, speaking of turnovers, where has Xavier McKinney been?

 

[adambr2]

Studs:
1. Whomever was working the playclock in OT, that second just hung there, it easily could have been ran to zero, and Dallas would have won.

I did notice and appreciate that, but in those late game situations, they almost assuredly would have looked at it again, seen one second on the clock when the ball hit the ground, and reset the game clock to 1 second. There’s quite a bit of precedent for that.

 

[adambr2]

“all gas no brakes?”

MLF is much more of a “cruise control at exactly the speed limit” kind of guy.

 

[tynimiller]

I don't hate MLF at all. What I do think MLF needs to get better at is in game adjustments, as well as game/clock management.

Here is what he said after the game.

“That just goes to the level of detail where we’re not where we need to be,” LaFleur said of the game’s final plays. Immediately before the incomplete pass in the end zone, Love completed a pass for a loss of a yard inbounds that kept the clock running.

LaFleur added: “The operation was way too slow. Ultimately, the communication’s gotta get better.”

“It’s something that we gotta fix, we gotta clean up and be better,” Love said of the sequence.

FTR I don’t think many hate MLF said hate him situationally, I know not a big deal and don’t think you thought I thought that but just FTR

 

[Voyageur]

.

Well in regard to coaching hierarchy, I would say it’s all subjective and fluid year to year. At one time, MLF might have been considered one of the best. Now? This was widely considered a Super Bowl contender after two games who folded for once the expectations picked up, widely from things largely under his control.

So, that’s why the arguments I always hear about MLF being the winningest coach in Packer history, etc etc, don’t hold much water with me. At another time you could have said the same about Mike McCarthy. He has a ring. He literally has a street named after him in Green Bay. And yet, nowadays he isn’t even considered among the 32 most qualified for the position.

Same thing the other way around. Who is pretty much the gold standard for head coaches these days? Andy Reid, right? Who is also the guy who got ran out of town in Philadelphia.

You're right. LeFleur is a good coach. He just needs to learn what his limitations are. He may look composed on the sidelines late in games but looks are deceiving. He might be making decisions on plays that can throw the whole offense out of sync. As an example, in his hurry up offense it seems like he's mixing up the potential calls he makes without thinking about the personnel packages he has on the field.

Quite often, inside the 5-yard line, he likes to employ 12 personnel to have that double TE blocking capability when it comes to the run and the short passes into the end zone. In the game last night, he ran through the last series of plays not using his basic goal line offense personnel package because he couldn't substitute without the clock being run out on him allowing the defense to make changes and he failed to use the spike to allow it. Then, from what I could see, I think he had Doubs out of the lineup near the goal line and once again couldn't get him in and deploy him because of the same problem. These are things that the elite coaches have plotted out like a chess game, several moves ahead, before they reach that point on the field. That's not happening, and you can see it from the poor clock management we've talked about for a long time now.

Love? He needs to correct those errors. He may get yelled at by LeFleur for spiking the ball but if he thinks it's necessary he should accept the heat for it because he is good enough to make the plays when he is given the opportunity to do it with less pressure. Pressure is bad enough in those situations without coaches making it worse through foolish decisions.

Anyhow, LeFleur is a darned good coach but has weaknesses. Love is a respectably good QB with what could be a great high side. But until both prove they can go past where they are, they aren't going to be at the top of the pecking order in either job.

Just my opinion. I wanted to get the conversation started and it worked.

 

[milani]

You missed the point Tyni. All pre-season we've heard about Hafley's "Ball hawk defense" and through 28 quarters (Including pre-season) we haven't seen it.

Our turnover number through 4 games is not what we anticipated. What we were told be opposing coaches in the first 3 weeks is that the Packer defense keeps you underneath and forces you to throw short or run the football. You cannot hit the big ones. Well, last night the Cowboys changed that script completely.

 

[chemist]

FTR I don’t think many hate MLF said hate him situationally, I know not a big deal and don’t think you thought I thought that but just FTR

And how many more years do we have to wait for MLFto get better at in game adjustments and clock management. IMO the man does not have the strategic mind to manage a game properly. To understand the current situation and make the right choice. What I see is a control freak. He wants to do everything. He wants to call all the plays and at the same time manage the game sutuation but he is not good at it. He keeps making the same mental mistakes over and over. Very costly for us in the last 2 games which should have been wins for us .
Not taking the 13-2 lead to the locker room at the end of the half was a huge error in judgement. That 11 pt lead would have been plenty to keep us ahead given how the 2nd half went. Instead he rushed the offense into a bad situation with little time left on the clock to do anything anyway. A complete waste of time. What could he possibly be thinking, just one example of how he is terrible at managing a game properly .

 

[tynimiller]

And how many more years do we have to wait for MLFto get better at in game adjustments and clock management. IMO the man does not have the strategic mind to manage a game properly. To understand the current situation and make the right choice. What I see is a control freak. He wants to do everything. He wants to call all the plays and at the same time manage the game sutuation but he is not good at it. He keeps making the same mental mistakes over and over. Very costly for us in the last 2 games which should have been wins for us .
Not taking the 13-2 lead to the locker room at the end of the half was a huge error in judgement. That 11 pt lead would have been plenty to keep us ahead given how the 2nd half went. Instead he rushed the offense into a bad situation with little time left on the clock to do anything anyway. A complete waste of time. What could he possibly be thinking, just one example of how he is terrible at managing a game properly .

Your mad he was aggressive before the half which in part caused the strip sack….while others kick and scream he is too passive and conservative.

Stepping back some allows more clarity I feel on MLF. He is not perfect, no coach is…but it is fair to feel his growth or ability to transform is not occurring fast enough.

 

[milani]

Agree. Last night I couldn't understand why he wasn't moving around presnap, especially against his former team. Of the 31 teams in the NFL, the Cowboys are the 1 team that is very familiar with Parsons and if Dak knows where he is lined up, it is a pretty easy presnap protection call.

I also wonder if Kenny Clark had anything to do with the heavy pass rush on Love. Not that it was Kenny getting the pressure, but his knowledge of the Packer offensive lineman, had to come into play.

Well, Kenny knows a few of our guys but because of our makeshift line how much did he know about the 3 fill ins including Kinnard? MLF was able to take some shots that he could not against Cleveland but because of the line he did not want to risk sacks and holding penalties. And if Kenny was supposed to be a run stopper how did we pile up 169 yards rushing in 5 quarters when we were nowhere close in the first 3 games?

 

[Thirteen Below]

This Tie was squarely on Teams and Defense. Love cost us a FG -3pts. Dallas started on the GB27 post fumble (FG) Teams cost us -3 points. (1+2). Defense allowed 31 points in regulation.

But look on the bright side - a few more games like this, and we don't have to worry about someone poaching Hafley after the season for a head coaching job!

Jordan Love put up 27 points in the second Half. THAT alone should be enough to Win most games.

To me, that was one of the most encouraging things about the entire game.

First of all, Love had a phenomenal game statistically, and let's pause to take a look at those stats before going on....

31/43
337 yards
3 TDs
0 INT
completion percentage of 72%
QB rating of 118
11/15 on 3rd/4th down (and most of those 3rd downs were 3rd and medium)

And by comparison, Dallas was 4/10 on 3rd down.

Probably one of the 5 best games of his young career.

But beyond the stats... the unmeasurables....

Jordan Love stepped up in this game and put the team on his shoulders, more so than (IMO) any time since the last half of 2023. I posted, when we got the ball back late in the 4th quarter, "We need leadership to step up and lead. This may be Jordan Love's "it's time" moment." And by god, he did.

My biggest concern with Love is that he often does not seem to play with passion, with fire, with intensity... with absolute determination, fueled by a fundamental refusal to be defeated, like we saw with both Favre and Rodgers. But whether I noticed it or not through most of the game last night, it seems as though that was exactly what he was doing at the end of that game. He showed tremendous leadership, and the team bought into it. The offense trusted him, fell in behind him, and followed him all the way down the field twice.

And as much as I hate to say it, I thought I saw something else.... a major degree of disconnect between Love and Lafleur. Love was doing everything he needed to do to win that game, and I think Lafleur was holding him back because he didn't trust him. And I think Love is getting really frustrated by it. He was not a happy camper; he was stampeding down the field at every opportunity, until they got close and Lafleur dialed it back to play it safe and not risk losing the game.

We've seen this before, many times; and ironically, one of the best examples was against the Cowboys - in 22, Rodgers was on a roll, dominating Dallas in Green Bay, and Lafleur tried holding him back to play safe. Rodgers erupted on the sideline, and later, when asked what it was he disagreed with, he said this...

"Just every single play call, probably," he said of his frustrations. "I felt like we were like 30 yards from ending the game in regulation, and also felt like it was two minutes, so I was going to be calling those, and I was in a pretty good rhythm. Obviously, I didn't have a ton of attempts, but felt like I was in a pretty good rhythm. I felt like I threw the ball just about exactly where I wanted to, so I wanted a chance to go win the game."

The sequence in question started with 1:38 remaining in the fourth quarter, with the Packers taking over at their own 33-yard line after a Cowboys punt. LaFleur dialed up two straight runs—which ran the clock down to 30 seconds—before going with a pass on 3rd-and-1, which fell incomplete.

The Packers then punted it back to the Cowboys, who weren't able to move down the field to kick a game-winning field goal, and the Packers ultimately won in overtime.

It was a huge result, ending a five-game losing streak for Green Bay. But it was a game that perhaps wouldn't have needed overtime in the first place with a more aggressive approach late in regulation.

LaFleur admitted some "indecision" on his part regarding the final sequence, noting the Cowboys had three timeouts remaining and he worried about the possibility of giving them the ball with too much time remaining if Rodgers threw a couple of incompletions and the Packers had to punt.

"It didn't work out, at least in that moment, but it did work out obviously for us to be able to come out on top," he told reporters. "A lot of times when we get in those situations, we give Aaron a ton of freedom to kind of run the show. I'd say typically, he does such a great job with it. So, hindsight is 20/20, but that was on me, totally."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10055703-aaron-rodgers-admits-frustration-with-lafleurs-play-calls-near-end-of-4q-vs-cowboys0

Ok, yeah, it was on you Matt. But did you learn a damned thing from it? 3 years later, are you doing anything differently?

You have a quarterback who has the potential to be a Top 5 in the league, and he was having one of the best games of his entire career - and doing his absolute best to lead your team to a victory, in spite of your bizarre playcalling and clock management theories.

I understand his play has been spotty so far this season, but the guy was on an absolute roll that night, and instead of recognizing that, trusting him, and riding the hot hand you played it safe - and showed him no confidence at all. You chose to hold him back, restrain him, because you were so scared of losing.

Coaches like that may win division titles, but they rarely win championships. And they have a much harder time building a rapport and trust level with their quarterbacks. When the leader of your team is on a roll, you need to recognize that and turn it over to him - show not just him but the entire team that you trust him, and that they should too. Not hold him back.

Bart Starr: "I think I can run it".
Vince Lombardi: "Then run it, and let's get the hell out of here!"

Yup and there was all this preseason talk about the Packers working hard at punching balls out and creating turnovers. I haven't seen that yet.

Yep, that was this year's Big Whoop, and I let myself get all excited about it too. I've seen them trying, but I haven't noticed very many footballs changing hands. One more year of big noise in July and August and deafening silence come September, maybe?

“all gas no brakes?”

MLF is much more of a “cruise control at exactly the speed limit” kind of guy.

We dare not risk a ticket. Best to play it safe.

Love? He needs to correct those errors. He may get yelled at by LeFleur for spiking the ball but if he thinks it's necessary he should accept the heat for it because he is good enough to make the plays when he is given the opportunity to do it with less pressure. Pressure is bad enough in those situations without coaches making it worse through foolish decisions.

I agree, but sometimes I worry a bit that Love is too passive to stand up to Lafleur and say, "I'm your quarterback, I'm the one running the offense out there on the field, and if I see an unexpected problem or opportunity, I'm gonna change the call. Because that's the job you're paying me $55,000,000 a year to do."

Unfortunately, I don't envision Love doing that very easily. He just doesn't seem like that sort.

I dunno. Maybe he'll surprise me. I kimd of hope so, because I'm starting to worry a bit that Lafleur's timid "play it safe" coaching style at the stages of the games that matter the most may throw a wet blanket over Jordan's career.

FTR I don’t think many hate MLF said hate him situationally, I know not a big deal and don’t think you thought I thought that but just FTR

And FTR, I am on the same page. I don't "hate" the man at all; I think he's a pretty damned good coach and a very damned good guy.

I just would maybe prefer that he was a pretty damned good guy and a very damned good coach. I'm just not seeing him grow into that slot yet. But, every day is a new day, and every Sunday is a chance to change the course of your career.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Lots to pick

Who?

Special teams' disaster on extra point - That can't happen.

Rich Bisaccia had better get it together.

 

[milani]

But look on the bright side - a few more games like this, and we don't have to worry about someone poaching Hafley after the season for a head coaching job!



To me, that was one of the most encouraging things about the entire game.

First of all, Love had a phenomenal game statistically, and let's pause to take a look at those stats before going on....

31/43
337 yards
3 TDs
0 INT
completion percentage of 72%
QB rating of 118
11/15 on 3rd/4th down (and most of those 3rd downs were 3rd and medium)

And by comparison, Dallas was 4/10 on 3rd down.

Probably one of the 5 best games of his young career.

But beyond the stats... the unmeasurables....

Jordan Love stepped up in this game and put the team on his shoulders, more so than (IMO) any time since the last half of 2023. I posted, when we got the ball back late in the 4th quarter, "We need leadership to step up and lead. This may be Jordan Love's "it's time" moment." And by god, he did.

My biggest concern with Love is that he often does not seem to play with passion, with fire, with intensity... with absolute determination, fueled by a fundamental refusal to be defeated, like we saw with both Favre and Rodgers. But whether I noticed it or not through most of the game last night, it seems as though that was exactly what he was doing at the end of that game. He showed tremendous leadership, and the team bought into it. The offense trusted him, fell in behind him, and followed him all the way down the field twice.

And as much as I hate to say it, I thought I saw something else.... a major degree of disconnect between Love and Lafleur. Love was doing everything he needed to do to win that game, and I think Lafleur was holding him back because he didn't trust him. And I think Love is getting really frustrated by it. He was not a happy camper; he was stampeding down the field at every opportunity, until they got close and Lafleur dialed it back to play it safe and not risk losing the game.

We've seen this before, many times; and ironically, one of the best examples was against the Cowboys - in 22, Rodgers was on a roll, dominating Dallas in Green Bay, and Lafleur tried holding him back to play safe. Rodgers erupted on the sideline, and later, when asked what it was he disagreed with, he said this...

"Just every single play call, probably," he said of his frustrations. "I felt like we were like 30 yards from ending the game in regulation, and also felt like it was two minutes, so I was going to be calling those, and I was in a pretty good rhythm. Obviously, I didn't have a ton of attempts, but felt like I was in a pretty good rhythm. I felt like I threw the ball just about exactly where I wanted to, so I wanted a chance to go win the game."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10055703-aaron-rodgers-admits-frustration-with-lafleurs-play-calls-near-end-of-4q-vs-cowboys0

Ok, yeah, it was on you Matt. But did you learn a damned thing from it? 3 years later, are you doing anything differently?

You have a quarterback who has the potential to be a Top 5 in the league, and he was having one of the best games of his entire career - and doing his absolute best to lead your team to a victory, in spite of your bizarre playcalling and clock management theories.

I understand his play has been spotty so far this season, but the guy was on an absolute roll that night, and instead of recognizing that, trusting him, and riding the hot hand you played it safe - and showed him no confidence at all. You chose to hold him back, restrain him, because you were so scared of losing.

Coaches like that may win division titles, but they rarely win championships. And they have a much harder time building a rapport and trust level with their quarterbacks. When the leader of your team is on a roll, you need to recognize that and turn it over to him - show not just him but the entire team that you trust him, and that they should too. Not hold him back.

Bart Starr: "I think I can run it".
Vince Lombardi: "Then run it, and let's get the hell out of here!"




Yep, that was this year's Big Whoop, and I let myself get all excited about it too. I've seen them trying, but I haven't noticed very many footballs changing hands. One more year of big noise in July and August and deafening silence come September, maybe?




We dare not risk a ticket. Best to play it safe.




I agree, but sometimes I worry a bit that Love is too passive to stand up to Lafleur and say, "I'm your quarterback, I'm the one running the offense out there on the field, and if I see an unexpected problem or opportunity, I'm gonna change the call. Because that's the job you're paying me $55,000,000 a year to do."

Unfortunately, I don't envision Love doing that very easily. He just doesn't seem like that sort.

I dunno. Maybe he'll surprise me. I kimd of hope so, because I'm starting to worry a bit that Lafleur's timid "play it safe" coaching style at the stages of the games that matter the most may throw a wet blanket over Jordan's career.



And FTR, I am on the same page. I don't "hate" the man at all; I think he's a pretty damned good coach and a very damned good guy.

I just would maybe prefer that he was a pretty damned good guy and a very damned good coach. I'm just not seeing him grow into that slot yet. But, every day is a new day, and every Sunday is a chance to change the course of your career.

You could include the relationship between Holmgren and Favre. At least each of them agreed they were not on the same page. Whereas, when Sherman coached Favre he pretty much said " You're the HOFER, Number 4. "

 

[gopkrs]

Ftr I am hardly ever in favor of clocking it unless you really have to. You can always throw it away if someone isnt open right away. Just throw it into the ground close to an eligible player. Favre did that alot. Just giving up a down when it wasn't necessary.

 

[Cornelius Weems]

I broke down that play, the routes called needed time and we had them, love moved up in the pocket as I bet ANY QB would have and just barely got hit by a fully extended James Houston hand (who had been actually pushed deep by Walker)...sometimes the paid professionals on the other side make big plays. Love made a **** ton of them, and that one play was not because he sucked.

Keep in mind that I only gave him a mention. I'm honestly surprised that some think he that not only good job, but great job. Love's fumble set up the opposition with really good field position that gave them the lead and then to top it off, almost made us lose the game. The sack/fumble? Good play by the Cowgirls, but also bad play by Love. Almost blowing it in OT? Bad effort by others, but it's on him as well. Good QBs can get you to the cusp of the promised land, greatness deliverers. I ask, was a win against a team with a losing record delivered? Or was more doubt delivered? At ZERO point did ever state that he sucked, but I do think that he almost cost us the game, a game IMO, we should have easily won. I wish this was what I could see as a positive, but I think that Love put us in a bad position and I truly think that he almost cost us the game.

 

[gopkrs]

Special teams' disaster on extra point - That can't happen.

Rich Bisaccia had better get it together.

He already hasn't got it together. The first year looked promising

 

[pacmaniac]

I don't remember that

MLF said it during the 2019 season:

"He used the expression "All Gas, No Brakes," which Packers fans may take as a nod to head coach Matt LaFleur, who famously used the expression (with a slight expletive alteration) on the sideline in 2019. Captured on microphones, "All gas, no brake" became a bit of a mantra for the Packers in 2019."

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2021/02/17/green-bay-packers-j-j-watt-dropping-hint-his-destination/6781600002/

 

[tynimiller]

Keep in mind that I only gave him a mention. I'm honestly surprised that some think he that not only good job, but great job. Love's fumble set up the opposition with really good field position that gave them the lead and then to top it off, almost made us lose the game. The sack/fumble? Good play by the Cowgirls, but also bad play by Love. Almost blowing it in OT? Bad effort by others, but it's on him as well. Good QBs can get you to the cusp of the promised land, greatness deliverers. I ask, was a win against a team with a losing record delivered? Or was more doubt delivered? At ZERO point did ever state that he sucked, but I do think that he almost cost us the game, a game IMO, we should have easily won. I wish this was what I could see as a positive, but I think that Love put us in a bad position and I truly think that he almost cost us the game.

Your logic would dictate Rodgers sucked as well…QB that is “greatness” wins… sorry we are far far apart on how to interpret Love this specific game. So far no point in discussing sadly I’m guessing.

 

[Cornelius Weems]

Your logic would dictate Rodgers sucked as well…QB that is “greatness” wins… sorry we are far far apart on how to interpret Love this specific game. So far no point in discussing sadly I’m guessing.

Um, Rodgers won, and made many wins that were in the jaws of defeat, Rodgers also won a SB. I also never, EVER said that Love sucked. I very clearly stated, not once, but twice that Love had a very costly turnover and also almost burned our only chance at the end. Remember that he also threw the ball underneath two plays earlier.

 

[bm1090]

big dud to MLF. Played passively. Terrible game and clock management. Love bailed him out all night

 

[rmontro]

Obviously anything can happen. While imo it’s not a game changing play in itself, it’s also a stretch to say a loss of Down and -10 is going to benefit the Offense.

I'm not saying that, but I am saying you never know. In any case, looked like a definitely bad call to me.

 

[gopkrs]

I wanted to rewatch some so I turned on a 25 min. YouTube highlights and I have to say that Zak threw a bunch of bullseyes. But on some important 3rd down plays we played way off and they just played catch for a first down. That's just ridiculous to just hand them those. A lot of those darts were well contested though. What a great 4th and 6 to Golden. We let them back in and the game got away from us. But we kept scoring. We are going to need to get some pressure.