Studs n duds Cowboys

[Magooch]

How do you and I see that, but MLF doesn't seem to? I am not much of an X and O's guy, but this one is so fricking obvious to me.

This is the part I can't figure out.... How much of this comes down to Love and his strengths/limitations and how much comes down to coaching?

I guess what I'm getting at is that at times it still feels like Love is handcuffed to some degree. Yes he still makes some head-scratching decisions from time to time. But it feels like there are still situations where we have yet to fully take off the training wheels. It's like we are still playcalling in such a way that it is designed to "protect" Love - and I don't mean physically just protect his body, but protect his play in the sense that...a lot of times we seem to call it pretty safe or conservative so as to minimize Love's risks.

And to some extent I get that. Like I said, he does make some baffling decisions occasionally. But I also think he is a guy who has some of his best qualities illustrated when he is allowed to play a little more loose. And IMO you can't commit 200m+ to your QB only to still treat them like they need training wheels I guess

 

[milani]

It depends on what it means at the end of the season

The tie we had in 2018 to the Vikings was insignificant because we finished like 6-9-1. The tie we had in 2013 against Minnesota led by Matt Flynn WAS significant because it allowed us to win the division by one half game over the Bears on the final day of the season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This is the part I can't figure out.... How much of this comes down to Love and his strengths/limitations and how much comes down to coaching?

I guess what I'm getting at is that at times it still feels like Love is handcuffed to some degree. Yes he still makes some head-scratching decisions from time to time. But it feels like there are still situations where we have yet to fully take off the training wheels. It's like we are still playcalling in such a way that it is designed to "protect" Love - and I don't mean physically just protect his body, but protect his play in the sense that...a lot of times we seem to call it pretty safe or conservative so as to minimize Love's risks.

And to some extent I get that. Like I said, he does make some baffling decisions occasionally. But I also think he is a guy who has some of his best qualities illustrated when he is allowed to play a little more loose. And IMO you can't commit 200m+ to your QB only to still treat them like they need training wheels I guess

Agree and this is the difference between a coach that trusts his players and one that doesn't. The difference between coaches that play it safe and those that are will to take some game changing chances.

The Packer coaching staff showed lack of trust in their players last night in almost every phase of the game. Special teams Coach "Down that ball in the EZ and lets start at the 20." Offense: "Let's stick to the game plan, and take the sure 3 when we can." Defense: "We have Micah, no need to throw a lot of blitzes at Dak."

 

[milani]

Studs:

Love
Doubs
Felt like run game finally got it going pretty well

Duds:

OL mediocre
No pressure on defense
Special teams once again looks like it could lose us any winnable game
LaFleur continues to show an inability to run a disciplined football team and arguably got outcoached by Brian freakin Schottenheimer
Our new additions in FA look… unconvincing to say the least. Hobbs and Banks both look wildly overpaid

Even with the OL the team put up 489 yards in 5 quarters. The line had to be doing a few things right.

 

[milani]

Love ya but Love was incredible tonight. To say he was a Dud after likely having his best game within the play calls is crazy.

He escaped numerous sacks even and got off balls he had no business to, completing some even and his legs were active tonight. Love was a beast.

When your offense puts up 37 points in 4 quarters it is hard to be critical. That should win 90% of the time. The gashed defense and a blocked PAT are far more troubling.

 

[milani]

Agree and this is the difference between a coach that trusts his players and one that doesn't. The difference between coaches that play it safe and those that are will to take some game changing chances.

The Packer coaching staff showed lack of trust in their players last night in almost every phase of the game. Special teams Coach "Down that ball in the EZ and lets start at the 20." Offense: "Let's stick to the game plan, and take the sure 3 when we can." Defense: "We have Micah, no need to throw a lot of blitzes at Dak."

A lot of that trust is because the team is so young. You do not have a lineup of 5, 6, or 8 year players out there as in the Rodgers era. Our old timer is McManus, the kicker.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

A lot of that trust is because the team is so young. You do not have a lineup of 5, 6, or 8 year players out there as in the Rodgers era. Our old timer is McManus, the kicker.

That may be the case, but Love is a veteran to me, as is Jacobs and a few of his receivers. Time to remove the training wheels and put some trust in your players to out perform your (MLF's) expectations.

 

[Voyageur]

In reference to Love's game last night. Statistically it appears he played a great game. Reality is that he makes sophomoric mistakes when it's at a critical point in games. He has had only one game winning drive to his credit since taking over as the Packers starting QB.

I've seen games where a QB has thrown for nearly 400 yards and had a high completion percentage but what they were doing was moving the ball between the 20s. Last night was a perfect example of that happening. He made some terrific plays in that area but once again he had a turnover that destroyed everything they'd done with 4 minutes left to go in the game. He also moved the ball very well during OT, with the help of players stepping up but once they got into range to score the game winning TD, he folded his tent and played with the intent of not losing, not with the intent of winning.

I realize this opinion is one that so few people will agree with but if you think about it a little bit you'll see there's been this pattern with him as our QB from the start. We would prefer blaming it on the game plans or the coaches becoming too conservative, but it goes deeper than that because Love just doesn't seem to get the urgency of the moment during a game and we see substantial leads slipping away. For the most part we've been lucky that it hasn't cost us more games.

Anyhow, that's my opinion for what it's worth. He's still a long way from being more than an average QB in the NFL, and one who needs to learn how to win.

 

[milani]

He also almost lost the game at the end. Really lucky the clock stopped at :01. That was just as bad as the final play of the Packers-Patriots game in 2010, except Matt Flynn had an excuse for the terrible clock management.

I believe that was Flynn's first NFL start. And facing the Pats was no easy task. That game was lost because we let an offensive lineman run a kickoff nearly all the way before halftime. And throw in an easy pick that Woodson dropped and victory disappears.

 

[pacmaniac]

Agree. I can't tell you how many times I said to myself; "What would Campbell do in this situation?" Usually, it was the exact opposite of what MLF decided to do.

We saw this kind of coaching from Mike McCarthy too often. Conservative and playing in fear of the other team.

What happened to LaFleur's "all gas no brakes" philosophy?

 

[tynimiller]

Agree. I can't tell you how many times I said to myself; "What would Campbell do in this situation?" Usually, it was the exact opposite of what MLF decided to do.

We saw this kind of coaching from Mike McCarthy too often. Conservative and playing in fear of the other team.

Trust me I have Detroit fans in my family.....they hate Dan as much situationally as you guys hate MLF though....

 

[tynimiller]

This is the part I can't figure out.... How much of this comes down to Love and his strengths/limitations and how much comes down to coaching?

I guess what I'm getting at is that at times it still feels like Love is handcuffed to some degree. Yes he still makes some head-scratching decisions from time to time. But it feels like there are still situations where we have yet to fully take off the training wheels. It's like we are still playcalling in such a way that it is designed to "protect" Love - and I don't mean physically just protect his body, but protect his play in the sense that...a lot of times we seem to call it pretty safe or conservative so as to minimize Love's risks.

And to some extent I get that. Like I said, he does make some baffling decisions occasionally. But I also think he is a guy who has some of his best qualities illustrated when he is allowed to play a little more loose. And IMO you can't commit 200m+ to your QB only to still treat them like they need training wheels I guess

The first two weeks his depth of target was leading the league....it is a false claim IMO that on the whole MLF doesn't let Love fling it....shoot even last night Love was slinging many a pass into the 20 yard range give or take or deeper.

 

[tynimiller]

In reference to Love's game last night. Statistically it appears he played a great game. Reality is that he makes sophomoric mistakes when it's at a critical point in games. He has had only one game winning drive to his credit since taking over as the Packers starting QB.

I've seen games where a QB has thrown for nearly 400 yards and had a high completion percentage but what they were doing was moving the ball between the 20s. Last night was a perfect example of that happening. He made some terrific plays in that area but once again he had a turnover that destroyed everything they'd done with 4 minutes left to go in the game. He also moved the ball very well during OT, with the help of players stepping up but once they got into range to score the game winning TD, he folded his tent and played with the intent of not losing, not with the intent of winning.

I realize this opinion is one that so few people will agree with but if you think about it a little bit you'll see there's been this pattern with him as our QB from the start. We would prefer blaming it on the game plans or the coaches becoming too conservative, but it goes deeper than that because Love just doesn't seem to get the urgency of the moment during a game and we see substantial leads slipping away. For the most part we've been lucky that it hasn't cost us more games.

Anyhow, that's my opinion for what it's worth. He's still a long way from being more than an average QB in the NFL, and one who needs to learn how to win.

I broke down every single third down and fourth down plays last night...LOVE was damn near immaculate. Shoot one of the failed third down and 18 to go was a 16 yarder to Savion that was schemed up brilliantly...and one of the failed third downs, Love then completes a bullet over the middle and deep to Golden for the first down to keep the game alive.

I truly don't understand what more you people demand of Love or any QB to do....beyond being Jesus Christ himself and just quietly walking the ball down the field with defenders prostrating themselves due to his glory....

FTR @Voyageur you know I love you and I know you don't things wrong usually but my tongue in cheek at the end is speaking to the general accusations being hurled at Love not you specifically however in this instance it does fit - please don't take offense.

Love has had some misfires and mishandled drives...but the dude CONTINUALLY overcame ****** OL play a defense that seemed to be playing with 10 guys they were so bad...and according to many a terrible coach making dumb playcalls.

 

[gopkrs]

I wonder: Do you think there are coaches in the NFL who would have gone for the win on that last play, just out of principal?

No. It was too far

 

[gopkrs]

Agree and this is the difference between a coach that trusts his players and one that doesn't. The difference between coaches that play it safe and those that are will to take some game changing chances.

The Packer coaching staff showed lack of trust in their players last night in almost every phase of the game. Special teams Coach "Down that ball in the EZ and lets start at the 20." Offense: "Let's stick to the game plan, and take the sure 3 when we can." Defense: "We have Micah, no need to throw a lot of blitzes at Dak."

I can't help but think Haf should use Micah with more flexibility. I liked it when he moved around and came in from the middle. Someone else has to contain. Just to put him on the end and think that because he takes up two blockers; we are going to win the play, isn't cutting it imho.

 

[gopkrs]

What happened to LaFleur's "all gas no brakes" philosophy?

I don't remember that

 

[pacmaniac]

No. It was too far

The last play was too far. But I think other coaches would have been able to squeeze in a couple more plays in the final 2 minutes.

 

[Magooch]

The first two weeks his depth of target was leading the league....it is a false claim IMO that on the whole MLF doesn't let Love fling it....shoot even last night Love was slinging many a pass into the 20 yard range give or take or deeper.

I didn't claim anything about depth of target though. Saying that MLF often calls conservatively (and perhaps to Love's detriment at times) =/= saying MLF doesn't ever let Love throw deep or whatnot

 

[tynimiller]

I didn't claim anything about depth of target though. Saying that MLF often calls conservatively (and perhaps to Love's detriment at times) =/= saying MLF doesn't ever let Love throw deep or whatnot

A conservative game plan is not going to sniff leading the league in deep passes is what I'm saying. MLF arguably gets conservative at pucker times of games however - that I would agree can be illustrated and I'd argue happens 2/3 of the time.

 

[Magooch]

I've seen games where a QB has thrown for nearly 400 yards and had a high completion percentage but what they were doing was moving the ball between the 20s. Last night was a perfect example of that happening. He made some terrific plays in that area but once again he had a turnover that destroyed everything they'd done with 4 minutes left to go in the game. He also moved the ball very well during OT, with the help of players stepping up but once they got into range to score the game winning TD, he folded his tent and played with the intent of not losing, not with the intent of winning.

Certainly goes to show how two folks can come away with two entirely different conclusions from watching the same thing
I didn't at all get a sense that it was Love who was trying to slow it down and play it safe. What gave you that feeling? To me it looked like Love was the only one who was trying to keep things moving along and showing any sort of urgency at all. To each their own but I don't know how one could watch that sequence and conclude that the sideline was trying to "play to win" rather than playing "to not lose" and it was Love's choice to go conservative late...

I realize this opinion is one that so few people will agree with but if you think about it a little bit you'll see there's been this pattern with him as our QB from the start. We would prefer blaming it on the game plans or the coaches becoming too conservative, but it goes deeper than that because Love just doesn't seem to get the urgency of the moment during a game and we see substantial leads slipping away. For the most part we've been lucky that it hasn't cost us more games.

Similar to above... at what point is this not a coaching issue? I've said before, when you're the head coach....when it comes to the things that the players in your charge do... you're either encouraging it or you're at least allowing it. We've had Love for a few years now. We have a pretty good idea what we've got in him. If Love is still not "getting" these basic game-management concepts...why not? Is Love simply incapable of grasping the concepts? (If so, did it really make sense to give a huge extension?) Is his coach unable to develop him any further? At this point so long as these issues continue to persist I can only assume that the coaching staff is uninterested, unwilling, or unable to correct them.

 

[gopkrs]

The last play was too far. But I think other coaches would have been able to squeeze in a couple more plays in the final 2 minutes.

We seemed to throw away a timeout earlier but that's LaFleur's call. And we did look disorganized, to me, when we got close. And those first two of 3 playcalls were pitiful. So yes, it could have been better. They need more poise and to me at least, being a young team is a lousy excuse.

 

[Cornelius Weems]

You'd like perfection every snap...got it.

Sorry I'm not usually this bitey but Love was near perfection last night...putting any of that loss on him in any capacity, even 1%, is just something I can not even fathom.

Not perfection, but not a turnover costing us the lead, or even almost almost costing us the game on his last play. I can't overlook that he did not only cost us the lead, but almost cost us the game. Thankfully we didn't lose, but we definitely almost did.

 

[Voyageur]

Good! I stirred up the conversation around Love and the way games are called from the sideline. I think a lot of the problems Love has on crucial downs and during crunch time deals with the way LeFleur is calling the game. Between the two of them the problems can be ironed out but I think the predictability of what the Packers are going to run when the clock is an issue deserves to take more heat than it does.

Even the rushed play at the end before the FG was a product of calling a run play up the gut as if it was intended to set them up for a FG attempt. Better usage of time-outs, sending in multiple plays from the sideline and finding less complicated information that needs to be relayed by the QB to his team all would help reduce frustrations when it comes to getting the ball snapped on time. Even the issue of using motion when the clock is running, and waiting for a receiver to cross in front of the QB eats up valuable time.

But you can't dismiss the fact that on critical plays Love is far from being efficient. Like I said, great plays between the 20 yard-lines doesn't set my heart on pitter-patter. What does is plays like we saw in those TD passes to Doubs where he saw a guy who was about to come open and threw to him instead of throwing to a guy who was never going to make a play at the back of the end zone. We were just lucky the guy with his finger on the clock button pressed it when he did. In less than a second that clock would have read zero and we'd have lost it. This was not good game management by LeFleur and not the wisest thing to do to take so much time before throwing the ball.

 

[OldSchool101]

Agreed it was one of Love's best game, but he was not unflappable. He was too careless, again, with the ball in a crowd and took too long to get the ball out, resulting in a strip fumble and recovery.

He just keeps making this same mistake, as if he doesn't know where he is or who is around him. And it's costly. This has been happening since he's been a starter.

Of course he would have been spared this of MLF hadn't called a TO.

One bad play doesn't win or lose a game, it's all of them. That lateral to Jacobs was well executed. Love drew the defenders toward him and then passed back to Jacobs, open on the sideline.

kinda like Justin Herbert. Careless!

 

[tynimiller]

Those ******* Jordan Love....I want to know a few things...

How many third downs did Jordan Love convert out of our 14 faced? 10 of them.
Of the four we did not:
Q1 with 5:14 left - Jordan Love completed a pass to Savion within the playcall and Savion came two yards short got 16 yards of the 18 needed...NOT Love's fault.
Q2 with 6:05 left - Jordan deep left side incomplete for Wicks. I don't remember the pass and can review All22...let's say bad throw just to play to the argument he sucked.
OT with 3:57 left - Jordan Love incomplete DEEP to Wicks on left side (I thought DPI) but wasn't.....what does Love do converts the 4th down to follow with a BULLET to Golden.
OT with :06 left - Love trying to get his team's ***** to the line to run a play....I agree likely should have seen time and threw it away immediately or spiked it BUT that man was being aggressive and wanted another play, which they had TONS of time from the run to get a snap and an actual look.

Some of the plays on third down he did convert include the escape and 20+ run, the 15 yard strike for TD to Doubs....the Tucker pass for 12 and 16.

He went 31 for 43 (72%) and that was with a few having to throw aways due to pressure immediately in his lap/face. Didn't turn the ball over...rushed for 28 yards, tossed 3 TDs...

The only thing he did wrong was that fumble. Which having watched that play the edges were collapsing and the routes were deep reads, he stepped up into the gap like I am betting ANY QB would, Houston just got his hand on that ball. MLF schemed up a great aggressive play, protection just couldn't get it done...and the crazy thing is Houston was pushed deep and had to fully extend and BARELY got it.

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I just cannot fathom the criticism Love is getting. If you told me to hand out proper criticism where this loss lies on I would say:

40% Defense - they SUCKED.
25% MLF - Head coach starts at 20% for me in losses...he got a little conservative with the two rushes late IMO.
30% Rich - another blocked kick....coverage unit TORE UP...and return team sucked.

5% spread across all of the defensive players specifically.

Good! I stirred up the conversation around Love and the way games are called from the sideline. I think a lot of the problems Love has on crucial downs and during crunch time deals with the way LeFleur is calling the game. Between the two of them the problems can be ironed out but I think the predictability of what the Packers are going to run when the clock is an issue deserves to take more heat than it does.

Even the rushed play at the end before the FG was a product of calling a run play up the gut as if it was intended to set them up for a FG attempt. Better usage of time-outs, sending in multiple plays from the sideline and finding less complicated information that needs to be relayed by the QB to his team all would help reduce frustrations when it comes to getting the ball snapped on time. Even the issue of using motion when the clock is running, and waiting for a receiver to cross in front of the QB eats up valuable time.

But you can't dismiss the fact that on critical plays Love is far from being efficient. Like I said, great plays between the 20 yard-lines doesn't set my heart on pitter-patter. What does is plays like we saw in those TD passes to Doubs where he saw a guy who was about to come open and threw to him instead of throwing to a guy who was never going to make a play at the back of the end zone. We were just lucky the guy with his finger on the clock button pressed it when he did. In less than a second that clock would have read zero and we'd have lost it. This was not good game management by LeFleur and not the wisest thing to do to take so much time before throwing the ball.

What are you talking about he isn't efficient in critical plays??? Love was insanely efficient in critical plays last night.... pasted the quote from above here as well so not missed:


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Those ******* Jordan Love....I want to know a few things...

How many third downs did Jordan Love convert out of our 14 faced? 10 of them.
Of the four we did not:
Q1 with 5:14 left - Jordan Love completed a pass to Savion within the playcall and Savion came two yards short got 16 yards of the 18 needed...NOT Love's fault.
Q2 with 6:05 left - Jordan deep left side incomplete for Wicks. I don't remember the pass and can review All22...let's say bad throw just to play to the argument he sucked.
OT with 3:57 left - Jordan Love incomplete DEEP to Wicks on left side (I thought DPI) but wasn't.....what does Love do converts the 4th down to follow with a BULLET to Golden.
OT with :06 left - Love trying to get his team's ***** to the line to run a play....I agree likely should have seen time and threw it away immediately or spiked it BUT that man was being aggressive and wanted another play, which they had TONS of time from the run to get a snap and an actual look.

Some of the plays on third down he did convert include the escape and 20+ run, the 15 yard strike for TD to Doubs....the Tucker pass for 12 and 16.

He went 31 for 43 (72%) and that was with a few having to throw aways due to pressure immediately in his lap/face. Didn't turn the ball over...rushed for 28 yards, tossed 3 TDs...

The only thing he did wrong was that fumble. Which having watched that play the edges were collapsing and the routes were deep reads, he stepped up into the gap like I am betting ANY QB would, Houston just got his hand on that ball. MLF schemed up a great aggressive play, protection just couldn't get it done...and the crazy thing is Houston was pushed deep and had to fully extend and BARELY got it.

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I just cannot fathom the criticism Love is getting. If you told me to hand out proper criticism where this loss lies on I would say:

40% Defense - they SUCKED.
25% MLF - Head coach starts at 20% for me in losses...he got a little conservative with the two rushes late IMO.
30% Rich - another blocked kick....coverage unit TORE UP...and return team sucked.

5% spread across all of the defensive players specifically.