Fire Capers

[Half Empty]

Every NFL coach at one time had never coached in the NFL. One never knows about the new guy, but we do know about Capers and many other current pro coaches. The point that I think was being made was that hiring a retread just because he has coached in the NFL isn't necessarily the smartest tactic.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No elite players (which I agree with) and no holes are two very different things.

And I entirely disagree that there are a lot of teams with far more talent. You just can't look at the defensive ranking and draw definitive conclusions regarding the level of talent. Coaching and game planning are significant influences on a defense's success.

If you take Steeler DC and switch him with Dom, and the Packers are a top 10 team and the Steelers are bottom 10. I was optimistic that even Dom would pull his **** together for a season with the talent he has. He did not.

Compare our defensive roster to Steelers. You blend our rosters and you will have 5 or 6 starters from each team. It is fairly close talent wise. The difference is coaching. That has them ranked 3rd and the Pack at 25.

I'm curious about why there are any reasonable Packers fans believing this team has a lot of talent on defense.

While Thompson definitely has invested a lot of early draft picks on that side of the ball most of them haven't performed up to expectations.

It's true that coaching is a deciding factor in a unit's performance as well but there's no reason to believe the Packers would magically feature an elite one with a different coordinator.

 

[Poppa San]

It's true that coaching is a deciding factor in a unit's performance as well but there's no reason to believe the Packers would magically feature an elite one with a different coordinator.

You might be right but I'd like to find out.

 

[Mondio]

So you are good with Amanda? He is 41 and has never coached in the NFL.

I liked him the year he was with WIsconsin, haven't seen what he's put on the field since then. I do know WI defense has been at least as good in the following 2 seasons since he left. This past season with the best guys on the sideline, so why not any of those 2? I'd prefer someone already in the NFL

 

[AmishMafia]

I'm curious about why there are any reasonable Packers fans believing this team has a lot of talent on defense.

While Thompson definitely has invested a lot of early draft picks on that side of the ball most of them haven't performed up to expectations.

It's true that coaching is a deciding factor in a unit's performance as well but there's no reason to believe the Packers would magically feature an elite one with a different coordinator.

The analysis goes something like this for most posters: We lost therefore Ted Thompson sucks and the team has no talent.

The margin between success and failure in the NFL is slight. Packer's secondary plays poorly for years, yet Micah Hyde and Casey Hayward leave and suddenly start playing great. Did they suddenly become talented or where there skills developed and their defensive role better conveyed/understood?

Explain how players suddenly become talented after leaving the Packers or accept the notion that the defense is more talented than their play suggests.

You just have to look at the players on an individual basis, and if you understand football, you will recognize the talent. If you watch them play you will see players operating almost independently of each other, not as a team. This is coaching failure plain and simple.

While Thompson definitely has invested a lot of early draft picks on that side of the ball most of them haven't performed up to expectations.

Just what do you think bad coaching looks like?

 

[Mondio]

The analysis goes something like this for most posters: We lost therefore Ted Thompson sucks and the dream has no talent.

The margin between success and failure in the NFL is slight. Packer's secondary plays poorly for years, yet Micah Hyde and Casey Hayward leave and suddenly start playing great. Did they suddenly become talented or where there skills developed and their defensive role better conveyed/understood?

Explain how players suddenly become talented after leaving the Packers or accept the notion that the defense is more talented than their play suggests.

You just have to look at the players on an individual basis, and if you understand football, you will recognize the talent. If you watch them play you will see players operating almost independently of each other, not as a team. This is coaching failure plain and simple.

Just what do you think bad coaching looks like?

I think it's fairly obvious watching individual players that this defense has guys that can play and as we've learned over the years most posters can't get past a W or an L. They think they're GM's, like we should be every team that is winning at that particular moment, though they've won nothing more than GB, most have won far less and anything they have achieved was for a much shorter time. They think they're coaches and know what's best. They think MM loses the team every year. Want to see a coach not in control of a team, watch Seattle. Punks the second things aren't working and now they look like they quit. They think they're talent evaluators, but can't see if someone has talent or not. It's ok, happens to me all the time too, but then about the only thing I'm adamant about is the fact that none of us really know. So have your opinion, but quit acting like you know. If your mind is boggled so easily, maybe it's not everyone else? Just this year how many said Randall can't play and here is healthy and just fine. year before Adams, everyone wanted him cut, well almost everyone, and now they're wondering if we can afford to pay him to stay. They couldn't see and most still can't see what Clark is doing in the middle of that defense and how that "should" be a great point to put guys around to make plays off of what he is doing.

There are definitely guys that need to be replaced. Fackerell IMO has been a huge waste outside of 1 or 2 plays, but then no names do that every year too. But there are also a good number of guys that are far better than most give credit for. But in a game where team defense is important, you when you have everything covered up and pressure in the QB's face causing a floater to just get launched, if everyone is where they're supposed to be, that's an INT, but when 1 guy is not, it's a back in TD for a guy everyone in the stadium knows the ball is going to and our defense looks like **** again. Just like when Hundley was QB and couldn't get the ball out didn't mean the Oline sucked, the WR's weren't getting open or that the 2 young RB's aren't still talented.

Anyway, there are guys on that defense that can play and I don't know if it's on the players or coaches, but you have a young guy like Jones who looked like he was going to make plays early in the year now suddenly is never in those positions again and is running around lost all game. and a solid guy like Dix who would rather stand around and watch plays be made than make them himself. What happened to him?

 

[adambr2]

The problem with this argument is that when you're trying to evaluate a defense that is crappy, the overall player talent level is going to appear to be, well, crappy.

It's the chicken or the egg argument. Which came first? Well, we don't know, because both the chicken and the egg are still employed by the Green Bay Packers.

I personally tend to believe that there are at least 8 guys on defense that have the talent or ability to be somewhere between average to well above average players at their respective positions. I would name Daniels, Clark, Matthews, Perry, Martinez, Burnett, HHCD, and Randall as those 8. That's the vast majority of the starting defense, most of which has been relatively healthy all season. This is not even regarding guys who COULD have the talent but we may not know yet, like Josh Jones.

So while it's really hard to know for sure right now, I think there's very strong evidence that the overall defensive output produced by Dom Capers is much less than the sum of its parts. This is only reinforced by Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde departing and immediately becoming Pro Bowl players elsewhere.

 

[AmishMafia]

It seems to be a pattern, especially in the secondary. Guys look good early, start to improve and falter. I pointed out Hyde and Hayward. Burnett is the same. We resigned him and now be is back to playing well. I was expecting Haha to be an elite player this season, but his play has dropped off. He played extemely well last season and appeared to be getting better.

 

[AmishMafia]

Look at it this way, at one time the Packers featured these players:

Bart Starr
Paul Hornung
Jim taylor
Max McGee
Jerry Kramer
Forrest gregg
Jim Ringo
Billy Howton
Dave Hanner
Dan Currie
Ray Nitshke
Hank Gremminger

Amazing team with all that talent, right? No, they finished 1-10 in last place. Scooter McClain was fired and Vince Lombardi took over. If Scooter stayed in charge, you probably would not know of most of the guys on that list. That does not mean they are not talented.

Coaching matters.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You can't fire the entire defense and start over. The current group of guys, plus or minus 2-5 are the guys who will be on the field in 2018. If Capers can't get the current group to play at a higher level, consistently from game to game, it is time for a change IMO. Could Thompson and his scouts do a better job on evaluation and drafting? Yes, probably. But just like many posters have stated, guys are leaving Green Bay and playing well elsewhere, guys are staying in Green Bay and seem to be regressing or inconsistent. Yes, there are examples of the opposite of that.

Capers has had his chances, more than most DC's would probably get. It's time to move on from him and try another approach.

 

[adambr2]

It seems to be a pattern, especially in the secondary. Guys look good early, start to improve and falter. I pointed out Hyde and Hayward. Burnett is the same. We resigned him and now be is back to playing well. I was expecting Haha to be an elite player this season, but his play has dropped off. He played extemely well last season and appeared to be getting better.

Absolutely a pattern. Total inconsistency. HHCD looked like an up and coming Pro Bowl safety last year, disappointed this year. Randall has alternated between promising and disastrous years. I don't even know what to think of Rollins anymore.

For all the hype he gets, Joe Whitt seems to be as much of the problem as Capers and should get his pink slip alongside Capers.

 

[AmishMafia]

Absolutely a pattern. Total inconsistency. HHCD looked like an up and coming Pro Bowl safety last year, disappointed this year. Randall has alternated between promising and disastrous years. I don't even know what to think of Rollins anymore.

For all the hype he gets, Joe Whitt seems to be as much of the problem as Capers and should get his pink slip alongside Capers.

Yup. And it seems to be communication or understanding of coverage responsibilities is our main issue.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Seems like Joe Whitt was given way to much credit for turning FA Sam Shields into a Pro Bowl player. Good job Joe, but what have you done for us lately? With the amount of draft resources thrown at the position, I expected a lot more. Bring in a new DC and let them bring in a new staff and retain any of the current coaches they can work with.

 

[JLW_51]

Just my feelings about this defense, changes need to be made and need to be made right after the season. http://lastwordonprofootball.com/20...nd-ineffectiveness-green-bay-packers-defense/

 

[adambr2]

Seems like Joe Whitt was given way to much credit for turning FA Sam Shields into a Pro Bowl player. Good job Joe, but what have you done for us lately? With the amount of draft resources thrown at the position, I expected a lot more. Bring in a new DC and let them bring in a new staff and retain any of the current coaches they can work with.

Hayward and Hyde look even worse for Joe Whitt than they do for Capers. Help me understand, Mr. Whitt, how you had 4 years with these guys in your system, 4 years under your tutelage, you got mixed results with 4 years of each given to you, and in their first year with new coaches and a new system, they turn into stars in their respective secondaries. Help me understand why.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Hayward and Hyde look even worse for Joe Whitt than they do for Capers. Help me understand, Mr. Whitt, how you had 4 years with these guys in your system, 4 years under your tutelage, you got mixed results with 4 years of each given to you, and in their first year with new coaches and a new system, they turn into stars in their respective secondaries. Help me understand why.

The Packers list Darren Perry as their "secondary – safeties coach", a position he has held since 2009. So I am always a bit confused who Whitt and who Perry are responsible for coaching. Guessing there is some crossover and considering all that has been mentioned as issues with "the secondary", Perry should ride out of town on the same bus with Dom and Joe.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Hayward and Hyde look even worse for Joe Whitt than they do for Capers. Help me understand, Mr. Whitt, how you had 4 years with these guys in your system, 4 years under your tutelage, you got mixed results with 4 years of each given to you, and in their first year with new coaches and a new system, they turn into stars in their respective secondaries. Help me understand why.

Hayward is pretty easy actually. He was AMAZING as a rookie, spent his second season injured, his third season coming back from being injured and his fourth season he started 11 games at corner in a secondary that ranked 6th best against the pass according to Football Outsiders. So, based on that improvement, it's not truly shocking that he continued to improve. I always thought it was ridiculous that Thompson let him walk for $5 million a year. Hyde, well, no clue what the team missed there. Perhaps they just didn't want to have Hyde being paid while the team also had Burnett and HaHa on the roster?

 

[adambr2]

Hayward is pretty easy actually. He was AMAZING as a rookie, spent his second season injured, his third season coming back from being injured and his fourth season he started 11 games at corner in a secondary that ranked 6th best against the pass according to Football Outsiders. So, based on that improvement, it's not truly shocking that he continued to improve. I always thought it was ridiculous that Thompson let him walk for $5 million a year. Hyde, well, no clue what the team missed there. Perhaps they just didn't want to have Hyde being paid while the team also had Burnett and HaHa on the roster?

I'll give you Hayward's rookie year, absolutely he was very good as a rookie. But that kind of goes back to the inconsistencies we were talking about. I'll even give you his 2nd year, being injury riddled. But he was coming back from injury his 3rd year? It takes a young player an entire additional season after the injury in the previous one before we can expect them to continue developing?

Also not sure what the entire secondary rating has to do with his individual performance in his 4th year, considering we still had Shields and Hayward himself did not have a very good 4th year. Thus why he only got 5M a year in free agency. At his current performance level if he was a free agent he'd be looking at 12-14M a year at least.

 

[Mondio]

Hayward was much like Perry was. You could see the potential, then he was hurt quite a bit, then he came back and was having a nice season, but was also losing time to 2 rookies remember. But unlike Perry, who was hurt a lot, but had ability, it seemed we had 2 young guys up and coming whereas at OLB, we didn't. We were old at that position I think and still are. We're not good there at all right now.

Hyde didn't play safety for us, and I guess I didn't see Dix seemingly regressing like he is. I always liked Hyde and would have easily signed him for 3 million a year, but didn't he get like 6? in the end, it is coming back to we have the guys, do we have the coaches? and I haven't watched Buffalo, i know he had a lot of picks early in the year, but I really have no idea how he's played overall. Like just last week I was watching some of the Chargers game and Hayward just got burned for a TD. I really know nothing about how they're playing other than what I hear about the other teams. But, If Hyde is that good of a safety, why didn't the coaches put him in a position to succeed? It's not like he sucked, he was a consistent performer and solid when healthy, but to go from 4th or 5th DB to probowl safety in a season? Is it because we aren't picking talented guys?or they don't know how to use them? I know which way i'm leaning.

 

[Half Empty]

Hyde wasn't used correctly in GB, so he wasn't worth the (as you say - http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/micah-hyde-12440/) $6mil/yr...to them

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I read the previous 4-6 posts and I think it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing.......Dom isn't good at consistently getting the best out of players and/or TT and Dom are pretty crappy at seeing the actual potential in players, be it upside or downside?

 

[brandon2348]

I read the previous 4-6 posts and I think it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing.......Dom isn't good at consistently getting the best out of players and/or TT and Dom are pretty crappy at seeing the actual potential in players, be it upside or downside?

Upside, downside or side to side there just not getting it done combined.

There is a combination of problems going on from not having enough talent and the right mindset on the defensive side of the ball to the coaching staff not putting the players in the best position to succeed. It's a total train wreck that needs to come to an end finally.

 

[swhitset]

I'm curious about why there are any reasonable Packers fans believing this team has a lot of talent on defense.

While Thompson definitely has invested a lot of early draft picks on that side of the ball most of them haven't performed up to expectations.

It's true that coaching is a deciding factor in a unit's performance as well but there's no reason to believe the Packers would magically feature an elite one with a different coordinator.

Actually there are many reasons to believe that. I don't know the truth .... until we have different coaches ... I'm not ready to say "there is no reason to believe it".

 

[swhitset]

Seems like Joe Whitt was given way to much credit for turning FA Sam Shields into a Pro Bowl player. Good job Joe, but what have you done for us lately? With the amount of draft resources thrown at the position, I expected a lot more. Bring in a new DC and let them bring in a new staff and retain any of the current coaches they can work with.

I would say that Sam shields having 4.3 speed turned him into a pro bowl player. He was often out of position... but still made the play by the time the ball got there.

 

[LambeauLombardi]

This thread was made week 1 of 2012 vs San Fran? Lmao, this poster beat me to the punch. I didn't start saying this until the end of the playoffs that season (also vs San Fran).