Fire Bisaccia?

[gopkrs]

I don't know that it has to be so black-and-white, this-or-that though, does it?

We can say "Bisaccia hasn't done good enough with the resources at his disposal"
And we can also say "The way we structure our roster/allocate resources to special teams makes the job of the ST coach more difficult"

Both can be true at the same time...

Like I said before I think Bisaccia in a vacuum has done enough to merit getting fired, but I'd also ask what we believe to be a reasonable expectation for our ST units to be at this point? If Zook, Menenga, Drayton, and now Bisaccia couldn't fix things...what should our expectation be of the next guy?

The stats given here as ranking in the league seems pretty dark.

 

[Magooch]

Going back to 2010 here are our ST coordinators, season finish, and Gosselin ST ranking

Season	ST Coordinator	Record/Finish	ST Ranking
2010	Sean Slocum	10-6, Super Bowl Champs	29th
2011	Sean Slocum	15-1, Divisional	13th
2012	Sean Slocum	11-5, Divisional	12th
2013	Sean Slocum	8-7-1, Wild Card	19th
2014	Sean Slocum	12-4, NFCCG	32nd
2015	Ron Zook	10-6, Divisional	17th
2016	Ron Zook	10-6, NFCCG	29th
2017	Ron Zook	7-9, 3rd in NFCN	16th
NOTE:	Gutekunst takes over as GM from January of 2018
2018	Ron Zook	6-9-1, 3rd in NFCN	32nd
2019	Shawn Mennenga	13-3, NFCCG	26th
2020	Shawn Mennenga	13-3, NFCCG	29th
2021	Maurice Drayton	13-4, Divisional	32nd
2022	Rich Bisaccia	8-9, 3rd in NFCN	22nd
NOTE:	Bisaccia promoted to Assistant HC/ST Coordinator
2023	Rich Bisaccia	9-8, Divisional	29th

Average ranking:
Slocum - 21st
Zook - 24th
Menenga - 28th
Drayton - 32nd
Bisaccia - 26th

Alternatively, in the 12 years prior to Bisaccia taking over, our average overall ST ranking was 24th. So we have certainly not improved, but also it's pretty much right in line with what we have come to expect over the last decade plus. Like I said, I think on the whole Bisaccia's not done anything to earn his pay/position/titles but I also suspect we can plug in just about whoever we want at coach and it will probably not make a hugely appreciable difference....

 

[gopkrs]

Going back to 2010 here are our ST coordinators, season finish, and Gosselin ST ranking

Season	ST Coordinator	Record/Finish	ST Ranking
2010	Sean Slocum	10-6, Super Bowl Champs	29th
2011	Sean Slocum	15-1, Divisional	13th
2012	Sean Slocum	11-5, Divisional	12th
2013	Sean Slocum	8-7-1, Wild Card	19th
2014	Sean Slocum	12-4, NFCCG	32nd
2015	Ron Zook	10-6, Divisional	17th
2016	Ron Zook	10-6, NFCCG	29th
2017	Ron Zook	7-9, 3rd in NFCN	16th
NOTE:	Gutekunst takes over as GM from January of 2018
2018	Ron Zook	6-9-1, 3rd in NFCN	32nd
2019	Shawn Mennenga	13-3, NFCCG	26th
2020	Shawn Mennenga	13-3, NFCCG	29th
2021	Maurice Drayton	13-4, Divisional	32nd
2022	Rich Bisaccia	8-9, 3rd in NFCN	22nd
NOTE:	Bisaccia promoted to Assistant HC/ST Coordinator
2023	Rich Bisaccia	9-8, Divisional	29th

Average ranking:
Slocum - 21st
Zook - 24th
Menenga - 28th
Drayton - 32nd
Bisaccia - 26th

Alternatively, in the 12 years prior to Bisaccia taking over, our average overall ST ranking was 24th. So we have certainly not improved, but also it's pretty much right in line with what we have come to expect over the last decade plus. Like I said, I think on the whole Bisaccia's not done anything to earn his pay/position/titles but I also suspect we can plug in just about whoever we want at coach and it will probably not make a hugely appreciable difference....

So it's ok to be bad at something because we have hever been very good at it? That sounds like what you said.

 

[Magooch]

So it's ok to be bad at something because we have hever been very good at it? That sounds like what you said.

Can you please point out what I said that lead you to believe I'm suggesting this??
because I genuinely do not know how you could draw that conclusion lol.

I have straight up said in two consecutive posts that Bisaccia should be fired / no longer hold his position

 

[mradtke66]

The J.O.B. of the Special Teams coordinator is to take the resources he is given and make them play at a high level. Bottom line for me, Bisaccia isn't doing that.

The problem with this statement is that it presumes a baseline competency from your players. What if our special teams members are made up entirely of people who, left to their own devices, would eat crayons and run headfirst into oncoming traffic?

Joking aside, I dislike the grouping of "special teams." Too much of the success (or failings) or ratings seems tied to the specialist, whoever they happen to be. If, for example, our punt returner just fair-caught every punt, we'd have zero return yards and our overall special teams rating would plummet. I would also argue each phase of teams is so different that I would prefer them to be evaluated independently.

I'm exceeding happy with our punt team. How much credit do you give Bisaccia for that success?

Most of us are, rightly, torqued with our field goal team. But what actually happened on each block? Many just assume Bisaccia some did something wrong.

Against the Browns, Morgan was lined up at LG and he just lost. He was knocked back and that guy made the block. What should Bisaccia have done differently there?

Against the Cowboys, maybe you could blame him, but how do we assign blame? I think Musgrave at the right wing blocked the wrong guy, but that is probably only thing we can confidently say. How much blame would you assign to who and why?

 

[milani]

Going back to 2010 here are our ST coordinators, season finish, and Gosselin ST ranking

Season	ST Coordinator	Record/Finish	ST Ranking
2010	Sean Slocum	10-6, Super Bowl Champs	29th
2011	Sean Slocum	15-1, Divisional	13th
2012	Sean Slocum	11-5, Divisional	12th
2013	Sean Slocum	8-7-1, Wild Card	19th
2014	Sean Slocum	12-4, NFCCG	32nd
2015	Ron Zook	10-6, Divisional	17th
2016	Ron Zook	10-6, NFCCG	29th
2017	Ron Zook	7-9, 3rd in NFCN	16th
NOTE:	Gutekunst takes over as GM from January of 2018
2018	Ron Zook	6-9-1, 3rd in NFCN	32nd
2019	Shawn Mennenga	13-3, NFCCG	26th
2020	Shawn Mennenga	13-3, NFCCG	29th
2021	Maurice Drayton	13-4, Divisional	32nd
2022	Rich Bisaccia	8-9, 3rd in NFCN	22nd
NOTE:	Bisaccia promoted to Assistant HC/ST Coordinator
2023	Rich Bisaccia	9-8, Divisional	29th

Average ranking:
Slocum - 21st
Zook - 24th
Menenga - 28th
Drayton - 32nd
Bisaccia - 26th

Alternatively, in the 12 years prior to Bisaccia taking over, our average overall ST ranking was 24th. So we have certainly not improved, but also it's pretty much right in line with what we have come to expect over the last decade plus. Like I said, I think on the whole Bisaccia's not done anything to earn his pay/position/titles but I also suspect we can plug in just about whoever we want at coach and it will probably not make a hugely appreciable difference....

I miss Nolan Cromwell.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If Zook, Menenga, Drayton, and now Bisaccia couldn't fix things...what should our expectation be of the next guy?

Much like players, I guess I look at what they do after they leave Green Bay. The 3 coaches you mentioned, Zook, Menenga, Drayton, are no longer employed in the NFL. That tells me a lot.

I will admit, Bisaccia has a ton of experience as a Special Teams Coordinator, so it's a bit of a head scratcher as to why he's failed in Green Bay. What I do see with his career is a guy that has bounced around to a lot of different teams, but never really advancing. He must have a great football mind, to continually being made an assistant to the HC. However, why hasn't he climbed another rung on the ladder?

Anyway, I don't see him being fired mid season, nobody with a ton of talent is available right now. What I really would like to see is for MLF to say " You know what Rich, I'm good on my duties, you go focus 100% on making our special teams better."

 

[lambeaulambo]

Much like players, I guess I look at what they do after they leave Green Bay. The 3 coaches you mentioned, Zook, Menenga, Drayton, are no longer employed in the NFL. That tells me a lot.

I will admit, Bisaccia has a ton of experience as a Special Teams Coordinator, so it's a bit of a head scratcher as to why he's failed in Green Bay. What I do see with his career is a guy that has bounced around to a lot of different teams, but never really advancing. He must have a great football mind, to continually being made an assistant to the HC. However, why hasn't he climbed another rung on the ladder?

Anyway, I don't see him being fired mid season, nobody with a ton of talent is available right now. What I really would like to see is for MLF to say " You know what Rich, I'm good on my duties, you go focus 100% on making our special teams better."

Opposed to ignoring the media and whining all the time...lol

 

[gopkrs]

If we can't play decent special teams today after he's been feeling some heat, I would try anyone else.

 

[milani]

If we can't play decent special teams today after he's been feeling some heat, I would try anyone else.

Not sure why but the refs did not get too flag happy like the first 4 games.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Not sure why but the refs did not get too flag happy like the first 4 games.

Maybe their arms are worn out.

 

[Magooch]

I saw one of the most staggering stats the other day.

Now granted this was as of a week ago, so it may have changed since then. But last week, there were 45 players in the league who had taken at least 3 punt returns.

Ranked by yards per return attempt, it was:

43 - Doubs at 5.8
44 - Golden at 4.7
45. Nixon at 1.0

League average is right around 10-10.5 yards per return

 

[Magooch]

I saw one of the most staggering stats the other day.

Now granted this was as of a week ago, so it may have changed since then. But last week, there were 45 players in the league who had taken at least 3 punt returns.

Ranked by yards per return attempt, it was:

43 - Doubs at 5.8
44 - Golden at 4.7
45. Nixon at 1.0

League average is right around 10-10.5 yards per return

Okay, I just went back and checked for updated numbers. Now there are 53 players who have taken at least 3 returns.

44th - Doubs at 6.5
50th - Golden at 4.7
53rd - Nixon at 1.0

interestingly, before getting hurt he only had 2 returns but Reed had averaged right at a league-average 10.5 yards per return

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Okay, I just went back and checked for updated numbers. Now there are 53 players who have taken at least 3 returns.

44th - Doubs at 6.5
50th - Golden at 4.7
53rd - Nixon at 1.0

interestingly, before getting hurt he only had 2 returns but Reed had averaged right at a league-average 10.5 yards per return

I was thinking about this yesterday. Doubs had a pretty good day, with 2 returns. One was for 16 yds. and the other was 5 yds. Nothing ground breaking, but a 10.5 yd average. At this point I would prefer to just see him be the full time punt returner and leave it at that. I also don't think it is just a problem with our returners, more than it is a problem with Bisaccia and his coaching style. Our kick and punt returners look scared and are very tentative with their catching of the ball and then returning it. I put that on coaching.

 

[milani]

I saw one of the most staggering stats the other day.

Now granted this was as of a week ago, so it may have changed since then. But last week, there were 45 players in the league who had taken at least 3 punt returns.

Ranked by yards per return attempt, it was:

43 - Doubs at 5.8
44 - Golden at 4.7
45. Nixon at 1.0

League average is right around 10-10.5 yards per return

We had a couple favorable returns yesterday because the Vikings had to punt near the goal line.

 

[gopkrs]

No problems with Biatchi yesterday. Maybe he felt a little heat. We're making some good hits on KO coverage imho. note: I kinda feel bad for Anderson. I think he's a good player and he looked good on ST yesterday, but Williams is playing great.

 

[milani]

No problems with Biatchi yesterday. Maybe he felt a little heat. We're making some good hits on KO coverage imho. note: I kinda feel bad for Anderson. I think he's a good player and he looked good on ST yesterday, but Williams is playing great.

But I did not like it that McManus put the first kickoff in the end zone. If the Vikings are going to start there make them earn it.

 

[Poppa San]

Our kick and punt returners look scared and are very tentative with their catching of the ball and then returning it. I put that on coaching.

Isn't Reed our designated punt returner anyway? Every decent return seems to be penalty assisted.

 

[gopkrs]

But I did not like it that McManus put the first kickoff in the end zone. If the Vikings are going to start there make them earn it.

I'm pretty sure McManus didn't like that either. Or Biatchi. But it happens.

 

[gopkrs]

Isn't Reed our designated punt returner anyway? Every decent return seems to be penalty assisted.

I think so but it kind of doesn't matter. We have not found a good punt returner on the team. I just wonder if we gave every short, quick man a try. We did have a good KO returner. But Savion is doing ok. I think he's trying to lull every team asleep before he actually shows his speed though

 

[milani]

Isn't Reed our designated punt returner anyway? Every decent return seems to be penalty assisted.

It is a major accomplishment just to make a fair catch.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If and when he gets back from injury, I'd be kind of surprised if Reed returns punts again this season. No reason to expose him more to injury. I am also not a fan of all the flip-flopping around of return men. Seems when we do that, that is when fumbles happen.

I'll say it again, if the Packers retain Bisaccia for another season, they need to decide if he is a full time Special Teams Coordinator or a Full Time Assistant to MLF. I swear all these multiple hats that Packer coaches try to wear is the downfall to our coaching staff. It is bad enough that the NFL has decided to make Football a part time job by reducing the number of practices allowed, the Packer organization is trying to fill coaches ego's with job titles and expanded job descriptions. I'd love to know how many hours a full time special teams coordinator spends with his special teams and then compare that to Bisaccia's time sheet. My guess is, Rich isn't putting in the necessary time that his units need.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I think at some point fans need to look at team building if the special teams have stunk under multiple coordinators for 10+ years. Packers are consistently one of the youngest teams in the league and that means there’s a lot of turnover on special teams. Do i think Bisaccia should be given more time? Nope, the STs have stunk under him. Do i think a different coordinator will turn things around? Nope, not unless the team starts to handle personnel differently.

 

[tynimiller]

I think at some point fans need to look at team building if the special teams have stunk under multiple coordinators for 10+ years. Packers are consistently one of the youngest teams in the league and that means there’s a lot of turnover on special teams. Do i think Bisaccia should be given more time? Nope, the STs have stunk under him. Do i think a different coordinator will turn things around? Nope, not unless the team starts to handle personnel differently.

If you look over the landscape of the NFL, the vast majority of ST players outside of lineman are your depth and bottom of the roster guys - which is massively populated by rookie contracted guys or guys with bottom shelf second contracts trying to make it in the NFL. The Oren Burks or Jarrett Bush type guys are rare, and teams rarely have more than one a team...BUT those guys are immensely valuable.

We concur that perhaps personnel structure needs evaluated however still, even if you don't change entirely....and Rich does for sure need to be gone or made just the assistant head coach and no longer both that and the ST coordinator.

 

[gopkrs]

I think at some point fans need to look at team building if the special teams have stunk under multiple coordinators for 10+ years. Packers are consistently one of the youngest teams in the league and that means there’s a lot of turnover on special teams. Do i think Bisaccia should be given more time? Nope, the STs have stunk under him. Do i think a different coordinator will turn things around? Nope, not unless the team starts to handle personnel differently.

I won't make excuses for bad STs. I don't believe in them. But I will say this past week, they looked competent. Which is a good thing. They seemed energized without making penalties. They should play like that ever week. Especially this week.