Assuming no other FA signings, where do you think we'll finish this season?

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This defense is really young. Their 11 penciled starters average about 3.5 seasons of experience. 6 are still on rookie deals. Should a rookie take over a starting role, that number would obviously come down.

It seems that Capers' system works significantly better with a more experienced defense though. Therefore the Packers holding on to their defensive coordinator and Thompson's draft and develop philosophy don't seem to be a great fit.

If you just decide that there is no room for improvement for a bunch of guys on the roster entering their 2nd or 3rd season, then yeah I guess the development route doesn't look too promising. But I don't see why we should make that assumption.

This is seemingly a pattern at this point, but all I'm saying is that young players often improve so there's a real *chance* that we see gains via the development of all the youth on defense. No guarantees, but there's a rationale there. It seems the other side of the argument is the one prognosticating with total certainty. So who is really lacking perspective here?

There's absolutely no doubt it's possible that young players significantly improve during their second and third seasons in the league. It's unrealistic to expect every single one of them to take a leap in 2017 though as it's probable some either stay put or regress next season.

Well their rather lousy defense (21st in scoring, 24.2 points/game) was enough for them to get to within a game of the Super Bowl, so I'm not convinced that getting over the hump means they have to see *huge* gains. In 2015, they were 12th in points allowed. So it's not like it's crazy to suggest they could make a move.

Those numbers are a bit misleading as the Packers defense mostly performs exceptionally well against below average offenses but struggle mightily against good ones. Last season the unit allowed a ludicrous average of 36.9 points against top 15 scoring offenses and while playing better in 2015 still gave up 27.3 points in those contests.

Unfortunateky the Packers mostly face teams like that in the playoffs.

TT's philosophy is clear at this point. He values stability and continuity, believing that getting to the tournament consistently will yield championships in due course. Obviously that's only worked once, and fans want/expect more.

Interestingly Thompson's approach to mostly rely on a draft and develop philosophy resulted in a championship before the new CBA was introduced. At that point the number of offseason, training camp and regular season practices wasn't as limited as it has been over the past six years. Unfortunately the current system makes it tougher for younger players to develop.

Both played fine as rookies (for rookies), both have draft pedigree and were well regarded by talent evaluators, both have the athletic profile to succeed, both are young, both were young in experience at their position coming in, and both struggled with injuries.

I'm not convinced Randall was a well regarded cornerback prospect by anyone else than Thompson.

Randall's athletic profile puts him in some really nice company and suggests that there could very well be more to him than what we saw last year.

In my opinion you're putting too much stock into Randall's athletic traits when projecting his development going forward.

Isn't it also true that people have short memories here? The season before last it was the DEFENSE carrying out offense. Peppers was still on a snap count. Jones contributed even less than last year. That production can come from a healthy Matthews, Perry and high draft picks at pass rusher. Other than that only Hyde has gone. I honestly feel injuries are our biggest downfall most years lately. The run at the CB position can't be overstated. Just as Clay playing with a wrecked shoulder and Perry with a club. Another veteran addition at RB or pass rush before the draft and we will be fine guys.

You seem to forget that the Packers still had a #1 cornerback in Sam Shields for most of the 2015 season. When he didn't play for four games two seasons ago the defense gave up an average of 28.8 points per game. Unfortunately that weakness hasn't been addressed at all.
 

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It seems that Capers' system works significantly better with a more experienced defense though. Therefore the Packers holding on to their defensive coordinator and Thompson's draft and develop philosophy don't seem to be a great fit.

There's absolutely no doubt it's possible that young players significantly improve during their second and third seasons in the league. It's unrealistic to expect every single one of them to take a leap in 2017 though as it's probable some either stay put or regress next season.

Those numbers are a bit misleading as the Packers defense mostly performs exceptionally well against below average offenses but struggle mightily against good ones. Last season the unit allowed a ludicrous average of 36.9 points against top 15 scoring offenses and while playing better in 2015 still gave up 27.3 points in those contests.

Unfortunateky the Packers mostly face teams like that in the playoffs.

Interestingly Thompson's approach to mostly rely on a draft and develop philosophy resulted in a championship before the new CBA was introduced. At that point the number of offseason, training camp and regular season practices wasn't as limited as it has been over the past six years. Unfortunately the current system makes it tougher for younger players to develop.

I'm not convinced Randall was a well regarded cornerback prospect by anyone else than Thompson.

In my opinion you're putting too much stock into Randall's athletic traits when projecting his development going forward.

You seem to forget that the Packers still had a #1 cornerback in Sam Shields for most of the 2015 season. When he didn't play for four games two seasons ago the defense gave up an average of 28.8 points per game. Unfortunately that weakness hasn't been addressed at all.

Yes, I am not a fan of Dom Capers. I think you make a good point regarding the defense and the new CBA. His scheme is one of the league's most complex and I don't think he's an especially good talent developer. I would like to see him replaced with a better teacher who employs a simpler scheme where young players can play faster without having to think so much.

Obviously you're never going to have every single young player improve. But if TT's is still bringing value as a drafter, the majority of them should improve-- not all into stars necessarily, but into better players than they were last year. If he can't add that value as a GM anymore, then he needs to go. But while he's had his rough class here and there, his track record in the draft is about as good as any active GM's.

I am aware of the discrepancy between good and bad offenses, but the point doesn't change. A lousy defense got the team to within a game of the SB, so it may be exaggeration to say they need dramatic improvement to take that next step into the game itself. Or they could improve dramatically and not get there for other reasons. But most of the commentary I see on this seems to have totally forgotten that we just went to the NFCCG.

Zierlein pegged Randall for the 2nd round and we took him at 30. He said this about him:

Randall is considered undersized for the safety position and some teams have him projected as a cornerback. While he has the speed and athletic traits to transition to cornerback, his cover skills and technique need quite a bit of work to be ready for the NFL level.

It seemed that both he and other teams saw the projection to corner, albeit with the need to develop at that position. That was a pretty standard take on him leading up to that draft-- a FS or CB prospect with man cover skills. Then he tested really well. TT drafts traits more than most, and that generally serves him well.

Athletic traits matter in the NFL and I point them out as one factor to consider. As I've explicitly stated, they guarantee nothing. However, they do highlight that players of his profile in the 1st round have a really strong hit rate. As the numbers cast a potentially positive light on Randall's projection, I expected they'd be disregarded as soon as I posted them.
 

brandon2348

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Yes, I am not a fan of Dom Capers. I think you make a good point regarding the defense and the new CBA. His scheme is one of the league's most complex and I don't think he's an especially good talent developer. I would like to see him replaced with a better teacher who employs a simpler scheme where young players can play faster without having to think so much.

Obviously you're never going to have every single young player improve. But if TT's is still bringing value as a drafter, the majority of them should improve-- not all into stars necessarily, but into better players than they were last year. If he can't add that value as a GM anymore, then he needs to go. But while he's had his rough class here and there, his track record in the draft is about as good as any active GM's.

I am aware of the discrepancy between good and bad offenses, but the point doesn't change. A lousy defense got the team to within a game of the SB, so it may be exaggeration to say they need dramatic improvement to take that next step into the game itself. Or they could improve dramatically and not get there for other reasons. But most of the commentary I see on this seems to have totally forgotten that we just went to the NFCCG.
.

This attitude of "we were one game from the Super Bowl with a lousy defense" bothers me as its total insanity to me to not fix the no.1 problem on defense immediately when your that close to winning a world Championship. To just roll the dice with Rollins and Randall is reckless and Thompson's stubbornness has reared its ugly head once again.

Some people seem to forget how well Rodgers played to get this team where he took them last year. Any drop off from Rodgers and this team could be in serious trouble as there is nobody in sight to pick up any of the slack. Certainly not the defense.

I know they won a super bowl in 2010 as road warriors in playoffs but that was somewhat of an aberration. I believe the best or necessary road for the Packers is to get a bye and home filed advantage at this point. In order to do that there gonna need a better a defense and more then 10 wins. Most likely 12-13.

Lastly, my prediction at this point would be another 10 win season factoring everything in but that could change. Although change doesn't appear to have much of a chance here because of Mr. Stubborn.
 
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Dantés

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This attitude of "we were one game from the Super Bowl with a lousy defense" bothers me as its total insanity to me to not fix the no.1 problem on defense immediately when your that close to winning a world Championship. To just roll the dice with Rollins and Randall is reckless and Thompson's stubbornness has reared its ugly head once again.

Some people seem to forget how well Rodgers played to get this team where he took them last year. Any drop off from Rodgers and this team could be in serious trouble as there is nobody in sight to pick up any of the slack. Certainly not the defense.

I know they won a super bowl in 2010 as road warriors in playoffs but that was somewhat of an aberration. I believe the best or necessary road for the Packers is to get a bye and home filed advantage at this point. In order to do that there gonna need a better a defense and more then 10 wins. Most likely 12-13.

Lastly, my prediction at this point would be another 10 win season factoring everything in but that could change. Although change doesn't appear to have much of a chance here because of Mr. Stubborn.

I was all about various options to improve cornerback in free agency. I was disappointed that they didn't land a better addition. I liked the House signing as helpful and smart, and yet never thought that was a major impact move. I had previously advocated for Gilmore, among others. I am not thrilled that they didn't pursue him, but I can still understand why they didn't. There are in fact positions between "TT does nothing right" and "TT does nothing wrong."

So all that said, me pointing out that we made it to within a game of the SB last year, and thus are not necessarily far away from getting there, is in no way to imply that we've done all that could have been done to improve. I was just pointing out the self evident reality that we were pretty close, as many posters seem to indicate that we're nowhere near that ultimate goal.

But it seems that the sensitivity to anything that could even possibly be construed as pro TT is so high that one cannot even say true things without some kind of criticism if those true things happen to sound favorable towards the GM.
 

brandon2348

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I was all about various options to improve cornerback in free agency. I was disappointed that they didn't land a better addition. I liked the House signing as helpful and smart, and yet never thought that was a major impact move. I had previously advocated for Gilmore, among others. I am not thrilled that they didn't pursue him, but I can still understand why they didn't. There are in fact positions between "TT does nothing right" and "TT does nothing wrong."

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Or does "nothing at all" which is my problem when it comes to the secondary other then bringing House back.

I have been on board with some of TT's moves this offseason. I love the Bennett and Kendricks signings. I think the offense has the potential to be off the charts. I like the Francois signing as well. I think he helps solidify the D-Line. I can handle rolling with Martinez, Ryan and Thomas at ILB. I like the talk of using Burnett more as a dime LB. I think we have something with Kentrel Brice at safety too.

There are some real good things Thompson has done here no doubt but to put us in the pickle we are in with corner is just unbelievable to me and if it costs the Packers a title this year he has to go.
 

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Or does "nothing at all" which is my problem when it comes to the secondary other then bringing House back.

I have been on board with some of TT's moves this offseason. I love the Bennett and Kendricks signings. I think the offense has the potential to be off the charts. I like the Francois signing as well. I think he helps solidify the D-Line. I can handle rolling with Martinez, Ryan and Thomas at ILB. I like the talk of using Burnett more as a dime LB. I think we have something with Kentrel Brice at safety too.

There are some real good things Thompson has done here no doubt but to put us in the pickle we are in with corner is just unbelievable to me and if it costs the Packers a title this year he has to go.

I'm not quite as flabbergasted as you are about the cornerback situation, but this is a good post.
 
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Yes, I am not a fan of Dom Capers. I think you make a good point regarding the defense and the new CBA. His scheme is one of the league's most complex and I don't think he's an especially good talent developer. I would like to see him replaced with a better teacher who employs a simpler scheme where young players can play faster without having to think so much.

It's pretty obvious the combination of Thompson's draft and develop philosophy and Capers' complex defensive scheme hasn't worked well over the past six seasons. It's pointless to argue who is mostly to blame for it but unfortunately there's no reason to believe the results will be any different while sticking to the same approach.

Obviously you're never going to have every single young player improve. But if TT's is still bringing value as a drafter, the majority of them should improve-- not all into stars necessarily, but into better players than they were last year. If he can't add that value as a GM anymore, then he needs to go. But while he's had his rough class here and there, his track record in the draft is about as good as any active GM's.

Overall Thompson has an excellent track record in the draft although the draft classes have been closer to average over the past few seasons. Taking a look at the numbers unfortunately the majority of the young players haven't improved as expected during their second and third seasons since the new CBA was introduced in 2011.

A lousy defense got the team to within a game of the SB, so it may be exaggeration to say they need dramatic improvement to take that next step into the game itself. Or they could improve dramatically and not get there for other reasons. But most of the commentary I see on this seems to have totally forgotten that we just went to the NFCCG.

I agree the Packers are close to making it to the Super Bowl, which makes it all that more perplexing that Thompson hasn't addressed the biggest weakness on the roster which would have significantly improved the team's chances to get over the hump.

Athletic traits matter in the NFL and I point them out as one factor to consider. As I've explicitly stated, they guarantee nothing. However, they do highlight that players of his profile in the 1st round have a really strong hit rate. As the numbers cast a potentially positive light on Randall's projection, I expected they'd be disregarded as soon as I posted them.

There's no doubt that athletic traits matter in the NFL but with Randall I have a hard time believing they will translate to success on the field.
 

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It appears Tom Oates is either reading this forum or more likely he is just another journalist that is feeling the same way about the Packers offseason and upcoming 2017 as many of us.

One thing Oates didn't offer up as "hope" for the coming season is the development of current young players and the improvement that the Packers defense comes from within. While I keep using that to try and rationalize the offseason and the future, hope doesn't always float and I think TT might be using it to hold up a ship that has taken on a few too many holes.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/...cle_d6b8ddfe-18a0-5246-9b3d-951b4516869d.html
 

PackAttack12

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This is exactly what people don't figure into the equation either. What if the offense doesn't start the season off at an "elite level" like they finished the season? We witnessed some magical type football on offense at the end of the season. I would never doubt AR12 but that will not be easy to duplicate.
That's what drives me crazy. It took AR playing the best football of his life (and in my opinion, playing the quarterback position maybe the best it has ever been played over an 8 game stretch) just to get to 10-6 and get shellacked in the NFCCG.

Even looking back at the NFCCG, he could only do so much. First drive, missed FG. Second drive, Rip fumbled. Then Atlanta got out to a lead, put us in obvious passing situations, and their defense pinned their ears back and were teeing off on Rodgers. Mixing up their pressure packages from every which direction. First drive of the 2nd half to try getting back into the game, two big drops by Jared Cook. Another drive or two stalled due to dropped passes.

So if some want to bet on seeing what we saw for those 8 games, which was near flawless offense, happening for 16 games and 3-4 playoff games, be my guest. But I'm not that delusional. Anything less than near pin point precision from the offense and this team is going absolutely no where.

Like you mentioned in another thread, I sincerely hope that I am wrong. But I have no reason for optimism currently.
 

PackAttack12

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I am aware of the discrepancy between good and bad offenses, but the point doesn't change. A lousy defense got the team to within a game of the SB, so it may be exaggeration to say they need dramatic improvement to take that next step into the game itself.
Do you see Atlanta regressing in offensive production next year?

If not, then how do you expect for a defense that hasn't been significantly improved upon to perform well enough to shave half of the 44 points they scored in that game to give the Packers a legitimate shot, outside of hoping that the game is played at Lambeau?
 
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Do you see Atlanta regressing in offensive production next year?

If not, then how do you expect for a defense that hasn't been significantly improved upon to perform well enough to shave half of the 44 points they scored in that game to give the Packers a legitimate shot, outside of hoping that the game is played at Lambeau?

I'm not convinced playing Atlanta at Lambeau would have made a huge difference either as the Falcons led the league in points scored on the road with 32.5 as well.
 

PackAttack12

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I'm not convinced playing Atlanta at Lambeau would have made a huge difference either as the Falcons led the league in points scored on the road with 32.5 as well.
Sadly me neither. But at this point, it might be what we have to rely on.

With the current make up of this team, assuming the RB position is solidified and the offensive line performs to the same level of last season, our only hope is that AR and company comes flying out of the gates and puts up another 2011-like season - catapulting the team to a #1 seed. And just hoping that Ryan or whatever other quarterback can't perform in the elements at Lambeau.

:(
 

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Do you see Atlanta regressing in offensive production next year?

If not, then how do you expect for a defense that hasn't been significantly improved upon to perform well enough to shave half of the 44 points they scored in that game to give the Packers a legitimate shot, outside of hoping that the game is played at Lambeau?

Yes, of course. That level wasn't sustainable to begin with and then they lost the guy who made it all go from a schematic point of view.
 

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Yes, of course. That level wasn't sustainable to begin with and then they lost the guy who made it all go from a schematic point of view.
Dallas scored 31 on us, and lucky we were buffered by three quick touchdowns early on by the offense.

Atlanta was a general example. There are other teams we should be worried about. If we're relying soley on other teams regressing in offensive production being a factor in the Packers success then we're in a world of trouble.
 
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Yes, of course. That level wasn't sustainable to begin with and then they lost the guy who made it all go from a schematic point of view.

You are truly convinced the Falcons offense will regress significantly???

Hopefully you are right about it and the Packers don't face any other good offenses in the playoffs as the team's defense isn't built to perform at a decent level against those opponents by any means.
 

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Dallas scored 31 on us, and lucky we were buffered by three quick touchdowns early on by the offense.

Atlanta was a general example. There are other teams we should be worried about. If we're relying soley on other teams regressing in offensive production being a factor in the Packers success then we're in a world of trouble.

Yes, that is true. I was merely answering your question on the Falcons.

I'll keep saying it-- I wanted more in FA on defense. And yet, I do see an avenue for improvement via development with all the young talent on that side of the ball.
 

PackAttack12

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Yes, that is true. I was merely answering your question on the Falcons.

I'll keep saying it-- I wanted more in FA on defense. And yet, I do see an avenue for improvement via development with all the young talent on that side of the ball.
We better hope so. I sincerely hope you are correct. I just don't like relying upon that.
 

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The Packers are going to need a lot of growth and good health on defense in 2017 and an offense that is playing at near perfection each week to expect to go very far.

This is a defense that gave up big points to more teams than just the Falcons, as well as 3 games of giving up 40+ points.

Lions: (27)
Cowboys: (30, 31)
Falcons (33, 44)
Colts (31)
Titans (47)
Redskins (42)

In 2017 we face the following teams (3 on the road) and where they ranked in scoring last year:
  1. Atlanta (1)
  2. New Orleans (2)
  3. Dallas (5)
  4. Pittsburgh (10)
 

PackAttack12

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The Packers are going to need a lot of growth and good health on defense in 2017 and an offense that is playing at near perfection each week to expect to go very far.

This is a defense that gave up big points to more teams than just the Falcons, as well as 3 games of giving up 40+ points.

Lions: (27)
Cowboys: (30, 31)
Falcons (33, 44)
Colts (31)
Titans (47)
Redskins (42)

In 2017 we face the following teams (3 on the road) and where they ranked in scoring last year:
  1. Atlanta (1)
  2. New Orleans (2)
  3. Dallas (5)
  4. Pittsburgh (10)
Oh stop it. Our guys are improving and trying their best. A little development/pixie dust combo and we'll be just fine.
 

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You are truly convinced the Falcons offense will regress significantly???

Hopefully you are right about it and the Packers don't face any other good offenses in the playoffs as the team's defense isn't built to perform at a decent level against those opponents by any means.

Well we have to define "significant" but yeah I do. That's typically what happens with such outstanding offenses.

The 2013 Broncos went from 37.9 points/game to 30.1 2014.

The 2011 Packers went from 35 to 27 in 2012.

The 2012 Patriots went from 34.8 to 27.8 in 2013.

The 1998 Vikings went from 34.8 to 24.9 in 1999.

The 2011 Saints went from 34.2 to 28.8 in 2012.

The 2004 Colts went from 32.6 to 27.4 in 2005.

There are exceptions. The Patriots maintained ~32 from 2010-11.

The Rams maintained ~33 from 1999 to 2000.

However, of the top 10 (excluding 2007 Pats b/c they lost Brady in '08 and obvious the '16 Falcons), there was an average regression of 5.6 points per game. If that applied to the Falcons, that would take them from 33.8 per game to 28.2.

The bottom line is that regression for elite units is normal. Then you consider that they lost maybe the best OC in the game and yeah, I totally expect significant regression.
 

PackAttack12

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Well we have to define "significant" but yeah I do. That's typically what happens with such outstanding offenses.

The 2013 Broncos went from 37.9 points/game to 30.1 2014.

The 2011 Packers went from 35 to 27 in 2012.

The 2012 Patriots went from 34.8 to 27.8 in 2013.

The 1998 Vikings went from 34.8 to 24.9 in 1999.

The 2011 Saints went from 34.2 to 28.8 in 2012.

The 2004 Colts went from 32.6 to 27.4 in 2005.

There are exceptions. The Patriots maintained ~32 from 2010-11.

The Rams maintained ~33 from 1999 to 2000.

However, of the top 10 (excluding 2007 Pats b/c they lost Brady in '08 and obvious the '16 Falcons), there was an average regression of 5.6 points per game. If that applied to the Falcons, that would take them from 33.8 per game to 28.2.

The bottom line is that regression for elite units is normal. Then you consider that they lost maybe the best OC in the game and yeah, I totally expect significant regression.
So instead of giving up 44 points to the Falcons in this year's playoffs we might only give up 35-40? lmao.
 
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So instead of giving up 44 points to the Falcons in this year's playoffs we might only give up 35-40? lmao.

While most of the elite offenses tegressed next season there was at least a single team averaging more than 30 points in 16 of the last 20 season and in every single one since 2008. It doesn't matter to you which opponent puts up a ton of points against the Packers defense.
 
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