Assuming no other FA signings, where do you think we'll finish this season?

[Pokerbrat2000]

But the other side of the coin is that young players can (and often do) improve. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the defense to make gains by way of development. That seems to be a pretty reasonable expectation.

This, as of today, will be what the Packers 2017 hinges on. development and taking the next step, for quite a few starters. Barring a major injury, our offense should be in good shape. However, the defense is the wild card. So far it appears TT is banking on Capers being able to get much better play than we saw last year from his younger guys. That is what has many Packer fans nervous and rightfully so. There weren't a lot of positives coming out of our young CB's last year and that is from most of them seeing quite a few snaps. The linebacker play isn't as dominating as it needs to be and the DL is average at best.

Nothing that happens in the draft is going to relieve this uneasiness for me. Bottom line (right now) is that last year's group on defense (with players lost/gained) have to improve quite a bit to make the Packers contenders for that Super Bowl that most of us are striving for.

 

[brandon2348]

This, as of today, will be what the Packers 2017 hinges on. development and taking the next step, for quite a few starters. Barring a major injury, our offense should be in good shape. However, the defense is the wild card. So far it appears TT is banking on Capers being able to get much better play than we saw last year from his younger guys. That is what has many Packer fans nervous and rightfully so. There weren't a lot of positives coming out of our young CB's last year and that is from most of them seeing quite a few snaps. The linebacker play isn't as dominating as it needs to be and the DL is average at best.

Nothing that happens in the draft is going to relieve this uneasiness for me. Bottom line (right now) is that last year's group on defense (with players lost/gained) have to improve quite a bit to make the Packers contenders for that Super Bowl that most of us are striving for.

The only thing I would add to this is I don't see any "game changer" or "playmaker" evolving from the collection of junk Thompson has assembled on defense which the Packers desperately need.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The only thing I would add to this is I don't see any "game changer" or "playmaker" evolving from the collection of junk Thompson has assembled on defense which the Packers desperately need.

Not so sure that we need game changers, more than we need good solid starters and some depth, but I totally get what you are saying. The good news is that we have 2 starters (Clark and Martinez) that I think will be better this year. Ha Ha is another guy that I think hasn't hit his ceiling either. While we didn't see a whole lot from any of the other young guys to hang our hats on, if you get Pro Bowl like play out of Perry, Dix and possibly Burnett, the rest of the guys just need to be good (as opposed to bad). I would be a lot more comfortable with this defense had TT gone out and found that playmaker/game changer you mentioned at CB, but I have to guess he thinks he already has one.

 

[Dantés]

Clark and Brice are the only "young guys" I am excited about on the defensive side of the ball.

Some people seem to be forgetting just how awful Rollins and Gunter looked. They didn't even look like they belonged in the league for that matter. Frackrell was a total reach by Thompson. Martinez and Ryan are what they are and have probably hit there ceilings already. Lowry could make a jump I suppose.

There is a long ways to go here with your "leaps and bounds approach"

It's weird that you put leaps and bounds approach in quotes as though I said that, because I didn't.

I don't think Gunter is a starter even in nickel and even without the draft.

If you just decide that there is no room for improvement for a bunch of guys on the roster entering their 2nd or 3rd season, then yeah I guess the development route doesn't look too promising. But I don't see why we should make that assumption.

This is seemingly a pattern at this point, but all I'm saying is that young players often improve so there's a real *chance* that we see gains via the development of all the youth on defense. No guarantees, but there's a rationale there. It seems the other side of the argument is the one prognosticating with total certainty. So who is really lacking perspective here?

 

[brandon2348]

Not so sure that we need game changers, more than we need good solid starters and some depth, but I totally get what you are saying. The good news is that we have 2 starters (Clark and Martinez) that I think will be better this year. Ha Ha is another guy that I think hasn't hit his ceiling either. While we didn't see a whole lot from any of the other young guys to hang our hats on, if you get Pro Bowl like play out of Perry, Dix and possibly Burnett, the rest of the guys just need to be good (as opposed to bad). I would be a lot more comfortable with this defense had TT gone out and found that playmaker/game changer you mentioned at CB, but I have to guess he thinks he already has one.

That's how screwed we are. We need Nick Perry to play 16 games which he has never done. If Perry gets hurt we are really screwed. There are just way way to many questions marks for me. I am feeling more concerned about this upcoming Packer season at this point then I have in a long long time.

You go back to the Packers team that won the Super Bowl and you had a Nick Collins, Charles Woodson and a "Claymaker" playing at an elite level.

We don't have anything like that currently IMO.

 

[brandon2348]

It's weird that you put leaps and bounds approach in quotes as though I said that, because I didn't.

I don't think Gunter is a starter even in nickel and even without the draft.

If you just decide that there is no room for improvement for a bunch of guys on the roster entering their 2nd or 3rd season, then yeah I guess the development route doesn't look too promising. But I don't see why we should make that assumption.

This is seemingly a pattern at this point, but all I'm saying is that young players often improve so there's a real *chance* that we see gains via the development of all the youth on defense. No guarantees, but there's a rationale there. It seems the other side of the argument is the one prognosticating with total certainty. So who is really lacking perspective here?

This defense ranked dead last in pass defense last year and nothing really has been done to improve it other then bringing in Francois. Then you look at the production that will need to be replaced by Peppers, Hyde and Jones departure and I see big trouble.

Like I have posted I am not gonna live in La La Land with Rollins and Randle all the sudden becoming premier corners when they showed as poorly as they did.

 

[Dantés]

This, as of today, will be what the Packers 2017 hinges on. development and taking the next step, for quite a few starters. Barring a major injury, our offense should be in good shape. However, the defense is the wild card. So far it appears TT is banking on Capers being able to get much better play than we saw last year from his younger guys. That is what has many Packer fans nervous and rightfully so. There weren't a lot of positives coming out of our young CB's last year and that is from most of them seeing quite a few snaps. The linebacker play isn't as dominating as it needs to be and the DL is average at best.

Nothing that happens in the draft is going to relieve this uneasiness for me. Bottom line (right now) is that last year's group on defense (with players lost/gained) have to improve quite a bit to make the Packers contenders for that Super Bowl that most of us are striving for.

Well their rather lousy defense (21st in scoring, 24.2 points/game) was enough for them to get to within a game of the Super Bowl, so I'm not convinced that getting over the hump means they have to see *huge* gains. If they went from 21st to ~16th, one could see that being enough of an improvement to at least get them to the big dance. And then who knows. In 2015, they were 12th in points allowed. So it's not like it's crazy to suggest they could make a move.

Apparently the Packers' brass liked what they saw out of Randall/Rollins in their rookie seasons to believe they can rebound after injury marred sophomore slumps. Perhaps within the organization they know that those guys never were really healthy even when they were on the field? I don't know. But clearly they still believe in them to an extent.

 

[Dantés]

This defense ranked dead last in pass defense last year and nothing really has been done to improve it other then bringing in Francois. Then you look at the production that will need to be replaced by Peppers, Hyde and Jones departure and I see big trouble.

Like I have posted I am not gonna live in La La Land with Rollins and Randle all the sudden becoming premier corners when they showed as poorly as they did.

Can you show me who is predicting that they become premier players? Again, you're the one who seems to be convinced that you know who these guys are. All I'm suggesting is that their youth and injuries last year might mean that there's more there than what we saw in 2016. Apparently that means I live in La La Land.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well their rather lousy defense (21st in scoring, 24.2 points/game) was enough for them to get to within a game of the Super Bowl, so I'm not convinced that getting over the hump means they have to see *huge* gains.

I would tend to look at it as their "lousy defense" is what cost them the opportunity to have home field advantage throughout the playoffs as well as go to the Super Bowl. There is no reason to settle for a lousy defense and expect your offense to always play at a high level to keep your team in a game. I get your notion, with the offense that the Packers currently have (had), they do not need to field a top 5 defense to go to a Super Bowl, but as 2016 showed us, they need to improve quite a bit on defense and maintain that high caliber offense to do that. I just am not seeing anything done in the offseason yet that makes me think TT has done this, other than saying "Stay Calm, all is well, my young guys are developing into something special." After a while, it is hard to trust that will be the case. Some fans are also assuming that the 2017 offense will be able to continue right where it left off, are you 100 % sure that will be the case?

 

[brandon2348]

Can you show me who is predicting that they become premier players? Again, you're the one who seems to be convinced that you know who these guys are. All I'm suggesting is that their youth and injuries last year might mean that there's more there than what we saw in 2016. Apparently that means I live in La La Land.

It's about probabilities. I don't have the probabilities high that Randle and Rollins are gonna be even effective corners. Both have been dinged up and hurt off and on since they have been in Green Bay. I have given my insight to why each will not be effective NFL players in prior posts over the last several months.

Could I be wrong? I sure hope I am but once again the probabilities point otherwise. I can go bet 60-1 Longshots all day at the horse track but it doesnt mean I'm gonna win.

 

[brandon2348]

I would tend to look at it as their "lousy defense" is what cost them the opportunity to have home field advantage throughout the playoffs as well as go to the Super Bowl. There is no reason to settle for a lousy defense and expect your offense to always play at a high level to keep your team in a game. ."

This is exactly what people don't figure into the equation either. What if the offense doesn't start the season off at an "elite level" like they finished the season? We witnessed some magical type football on offense at the end of the season. I would never doubt AR12 but that will not be easy to duplicate.

 

[Dantés]

I would tend to look at it as their "lousy defense" is what cost them the opportunity to have home field advantage throughout the playoffs as well as go to the Super Bowl. There is no reason to settle for a lousy defense and expect your offense to always play at a high level to keep your team in a game. I get your notion, with the offense that the Packers currently have (had), they do not need to field a top 5 defense to go to a Super Bowl, but as 2016 showed us, they need to improve quite a bit on defense and maintain that high caliber offense to do that. I just am not seeing anything done in the offseason yet that makes me think TT has done this, other than saying "Stay Calm, all is well, my young guys are developing into something special." After a while, it is hard to trust that will be the case. Some fans are also assuming that the 2017 offense will be able to continue right where it left off, are you 100 % sure that will be the case?

Of course not. And I get your point. I'm just suggesting a possible route to improvement/success and explaining why it could be reasonable to view is as one of a few 2017 outcomes.

TT's philosophy is clear at this point. He values stability and continuity, believing that getting to the tournament consistently will yield championships in due course. Obviously that's only worked once, and fans want/expect more. But I understand the philosophy so I'm not going to be flabbergasted or incensed when TT acts according to it.

 

[Sanguine camper]

It's quite possible that some of the younger players like Randall and Rollins improve. They are so bad they really have no place to go but get better. The problem with relying on young players to develop to fill the holes in the roster is that some or most of them have such low ceilings thst even with "improvement" they will still get beat. It's not early to look at next season if this defense only sees the addition of rookies. We have seen it all before. AR can drag the team into the playoffs winning 10 games and the defense will not be capable of beating an elite qb in a playoff game.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This is exactly what people don't figure into the equation either. What if the offense doesn't start the season off at an "elite level" like they finished the season? We witnessed some magical type football on offense at the end of the season. I would never doubt AR12 but that will not be easy to duplicate.

Yup, and we have witnessed it several times in the past few years, the offense and AR aren't playing well and the Packers look like an average team at best. I would be frustrated if I was AR, while he continues to do everything he can to carry the team, his margin of error is extremely small during some games and in others, it really doesn't matter how well he plays, if the defense can't keep the other team from scoring.

 

[Dantés]

It's about probabilities. I don't have the probabilities high that Randle and Rollins are gonna be even effective corners. Both have been dinged up and hurt off and on since they have been in Green Bay. I have given my insight to why each will not be effective NFL players in prior posts over the last several months.

Could I be wrong? I sure hope I am but once again the probabilities point otherwise. I can go bet 60-1 Longshots all day at the horse track but it doesnt mean I'm gonna win.

Calling it a 60-1 shot is essentially saying you know what's going to happen. And what we know to this point does not support those odds. Both played fine as rookies (for rookies), both have draft pedigree and were well regarded by talent evaluators, both have the athletic profile to succeed, both are young, both were young in experience at their position coming in, and both struggled with injuries. How does that translate to 60-1? Only if you filter it through an agenda.

 

[brandon2348]

Yup, and we have witnessed it several times in the past few years, the offense and AR aren't playing well and the Packers look like an average team at best. I would be frustrated if I was AR, while he continues to do everything he can to carry the team, his margin of error is extremely small during some games and in others, it really doesn't matter how well he plays, if the defense can't keep the other team from scoring.

This is what it looks like with Aaron Rodgers not playing at "elite level"

http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=400874572

 

[brandon2348]

Calling it a 60-1 shot is essentially saying you know what's going to happen. And what we know to this point does not support those odds. Both played fine as rookies (for rookies), both have draft pedigree and were well regarded by talent evaluators, both have the athletic profile to succeed, both are young, both were young in experience at their position coming in, and both struggled with injuries. How does that translate to 60-1? Only if you filter it through an agenda.

That's how I see it and it could easily be 80-1 or even higher. I'm trying to stay positive. You and Thompson like these guys and I don't. It's my opinion and insight. I think there garbage. Right now they have no value other then they were drafted as high as they were. They are both truly painful to watch and I played free safety in college so yes it hurts the eyes.

Randall was a safety in college that got reached for. He doesnt have the make up of a no.1 corner. He lacks physicality and is completely lost out there tracking the ball most of the time. Rollins should of never been taken in 2nd. He is a converted basketball player that had one successful season at Miami-Ohio. Rollins lacks quick twitch and speed to keep up with NFL receivers in and out of breaks.

You can love these guys all you want. I dont.

 

[Dantés]

That's how I see it and it could easily be 80-1 or even higher. I'm trying to stay positive. You and Thompson like these guys and I don't. It's my opinion and insight. I think there garbage. Right now they have no value other then they were drafted as high as they were. They are both truly painful to watch and I played free safety in college so yes it hurts the eyes.

Randall was a safety in college that got reached for. He doesnt have the make up of a no.1 corner. He lacks physicality and is completely lost out there tracking the ball most of the time. Rollins should of never been taken in 2nd. He is a converted basketball player that had one successful season at Miami-Ohio. Rollins lacks quick twitch and speed to keep up with NFL receivers in and out of breaks.

You can love these guys all you want. I dont.

Let's get real here. 1,000,000-1!!!

 

[Dantés]

For the record, I understand that there are red flags on these corners. I'd give either a 50/50 shot at rebounding into decent starters. My expectation is that they get one and if they get both I'll be pleasantly and mildly surprised. But that's a far cry from 60-1, which in essence is calling it a 2/98 shot.

 

[brandon2348]

Let's get real here. 1,000,000-1!!!

Look, I think Randall might be salvageable as a no.2 or a move back to a hybrid safety type spot.

The same can't be said for Rollins. Don't have as much to work with here.

 

[Djepacker]

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This village idot dug an even deeper hole for the defense by not reupping our best all around defender in Hyde. The season will be pathetic until the day someone is brave enough to unplug this catatonic stooge from the light pole. Unfortunately some of you think he is some sort of idiot servant or something...Well his NO light has been stuck flashing for too long...and we are going nowhere. Get used to it Pack addicted dreamers....

 

[Dantés]

Here are the 1st round corners of the last decade who hit the following minimums: 5'11", 4.49 forty, and 6.87 three cone.

-Patrick Peterson
-Stephon Gilmore
-Vontae Davis
-Darrelle Revis
-Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
-Leon Hall
-Aqib Talib
-Desmond Trufant
-William Jackson
-Bradley Robey
-Damarious Randall

This guarantees nothing, but should be considered as a factor. Randall's athletic profile puts him in some really nice company and suggests that there could very well be more to him than what we saw last year.

 

[Dantés]

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This village idot dug an even deeper hole for the defense by not reupping our best all around defender in Hyde. The season will be pathetic until the day someone is brave enough to unplug this catatonic stooge from the light pole. Unfortunately some of you think he is some sort of idiot servant or something...Well his NO light has been stuck flashing for too long...and we are going nowhere. Get used to it Pack addicted dreamers....

There it is. The voice of objectivity and reason.

"Idiot servant" is probably my favorite part.

 

[brandon2348]

Here are the 1st round corners of the last decade who hit the following minimums: 5'11", 4.49 forty, and 6.87 three cone.

-Patrick Peterson
-Stephon Gilmore
-Vontae Davis
-Darrelle Revis
-Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
-Leon Hall
-Aqib Talib
-Desmond Trufant
-William Jackson
-Bradley Robey
-Damarious Randall

This guarantees nothing, but should be considered as a factor. Randall's athletic profile puts him in some really nice company and suggests that there could very well be more to him than what we saw last year.

Pretty much all those guys are stronger and more physical then Randall is the problem. Plus some guys just naturally have good football instincts and Randall hasn't proven up till now that he does.

I have concerns with him staying healthy also.

I think best case scenario is the Packers use Randall in some hybrid safety role as I just don't see him being successful covering other teams no.1's. I think with a really good no.1 corner he might be able to be a serviceable 2 but would rather have House in that spot right now.

 

[Mark Andrew Hooley]

Yup, and we have witnessed it several times in the past few years, the offense and AR aren't playing well and the Packers look like an average team at best. I would be frustrated if I was AR, while he continues to do everything he can to carry the team, his margin of error is extremely small during some games and in others, it really doesn't matter how well he plays, if the defense can't keep the other team from scoring.

Isn't it also true that people have short memories here? The season before last it was the DEFENSE carrying out offense. Peppers was still on a snap count. Jones contributed even less than last year. That production can come from a healthy Matthews, Perry and high draft picks at pass rusher. Other than that only Hyde has gone. I honestly feel injuries are our biggest downfall most years lately. The run at the CB position can't be overstated. Just as Clay playing with a wrecked shoulder and Perry with a club. Another veteran addition at RB or pass rush before the draft and we will be fine guys.