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How To Fix The Ridiculous Delay Of Game Disease Getting Us Week In And Week Out

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by PackerfaninCarolina, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. PackerfaninCarolina

    PackerfaninCarolina Cheesehead

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    Time for LaFleur and Rodgers to get rid of this and eliminate ridiculous timeout burning. This doesn't seem to be simulated in practice enough so time to start doing so, here's a few thoughts

    1. Get more offensive packages together needing less substitutions

    2. Use more series with Rodgers having a wristband with plays on it that he calls to run his tempo but quickly

    3. Change the strategy from working hard counts to breaking huddles quick to catch defenses with too many men on the field

    4. Give Rodgers an electronic beeping play clock on his wristband that's wired into the stadium play clock so he doesn't lose track of it


    Course if you want to get real creative

    5. Stick a gun in the back of the play clock operator and tell him not to start it until the Packers reach the huddle
     
  2. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

    I would like to see AR stop with his hard count crap, at least on almost every play. Seems like he makes his own players false start more than he pulls the defense off.

    I would add to your list, the players all need to get to the huddle faster after the previous play. I watched the Panther game with that in mind and its happening on both sides of the ball for the Packers. Guys are jawing with the ref/other players, celebrating or just dogging it back to the huddle. While I want to blame AR for these mistakes, especially when he is under center with 10 or more seconds left on the PC, there were times when the rest of the players and MLF weren't doing their jobs to speed things up and it didn't give Rodgers enough time to do what he likes to do, read the defense and audible if need be.

    Finally, these are penalties/timeouts that absolutely should not occur when you are playing at home. You are very familiar with the location of the play clocks and you don't have the same volume of crowd noise to contend with that you have on the road.
     
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  3. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    As posted elsewhere, there were two delay of game penalties last season, one in the first nine games this season, and then two in the Carolina game, one of which have been more or less on purpose on 4th. and 3.

    Talk about a tempest in a teapot.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    Where are you getting that Stat?

    According to this site, the Packers have taken 9 DG penalties this season and 7 last season. Those listed are only the ones enforced. Packers have intentionally taken a few that were declined.

    https://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties.html?sort=dg

    This isn't just about taking the penalty either, its about burning timeouts to avoid getting called for DG. I couldn't find a stat that reflects that, but its been way too often in my humble opinion.

    Also worth noting that the Packers are 5th in the NFL in False Start penalties, with 16. I believe this to also be a fallout of the way Rodgers runs the snap count.
     
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  5. XPack

    XPack Cheesehead

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    AR12 has habit of calling the snap at last second. I've rarely seen us call a snap with more than 0:05 left on clock. And in many cases, were playing with snaps that could get called either way. There is no need for this even if they don't lead to penalty.
     
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  6. Curly Calhoun

    Curly Calhoun Cheesehead

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    Clock management was an issue under the previous regime, and unfortunately it has carried over to the present one as well. The obvious common denominator is the quarterback, although I would hesitate to lay all of the blame on just one person. Far more likely that there are several factors in play here, including a rookie head coach.

    The good news is that it is something that can be fixed. The bad news is, I'm not sure it will be.

    Time will tell.
     
  7. PackerfaninCarolina

    PackerfaninCarolina Cheesehead

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    I'm willing to bet this team has lost about 30 timeouts due to awful play clock awareness and management
     
  8. PackAttack12

    PackAttack12 R-E-L-A-X

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    I agree that Rodgers needs to be more aware of the play clock, and perhaps not use the hard count as much as he currently does, but the point about him drawing his own guys to false start is a weak one, in my opinion. It's worked quite well in the past. They need to be focused and locked in. They know what the snap count is, they know what he is going to do. Quit freaking jumping.

    Because Rodgers is so damn good at it, he's able to get a ton of pre snap information that is extremely valuable.
     
  9. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    If you click on Rodgers name in that link you'll see he's not charged for any delay of game penalties. As it turns out this is typical across multiple sites; they don't presume to assign blame based on insufficient information as to the cause, which would be the reasonbable thing to do.

    I was referencing one site that charged DOG to players, three so far this season for Rodgers, which I can't immediately lay my hands on at the moment. That site applied some subjective interpretation to the process, evidently.

    The total of nine is a problem which I admit I didn't catch. But assuming the problem lies with the QB is questionable, as my breakdown on the two Carolina infractions illustrates. You do not have enough information.

    As for excessive time outs for the clock running down, without a stat it is hard to say. You'd have to look at all tape of all the instances across the league to get some idea. Timeouts get called in the middle of halves all the time because QBs don't like the look of the defense. Whether that happens at 10 seconds or 1 is immaterial. 1 second makes more sense, in fact, because the defense might shift into something more favorable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  10. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    Yet, it keeps happening more to his own players, than the other teams players. I agree, your own players should never start early, since they "should" know when the ball is going to be snapped, but they still do. Again, with the number of penalties that the Packers have had for false starts (5th in the league with 16), something isn't right. Meanwhile, the Packers have been the beneficiary of the other teams defense being off sides 4 times all year, 2 of which were accepted.

    As far as "it worked quite well in the past", I think the past is the past and teams are very much aware of what Aaron tries to do presnap. I don't have a number for you, but my guess is that his "free plays" are down quite a bit from years ago when he was the king of them. Sometimes you can use the same trick too many times and it ends up biting you in the a$$. This is one that I would rather see him do less, possibly reduce the # of offensive penalties it may cause AND maybe it will be more effective to draw the defense off if used less.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  11. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    Again, i don't really care who web-sights and stats blame for DG penalties or the timeouts taken to avoid them, my point is, they are way too high for an 8-2 team. Maybe the fingers shouldn't only be pointing to #12, but he is THE guy who controls when the ball is ultimately snapped, so in my book, he has the most control over minimizing the problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  12. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    There's a reason or it would not be done. Once you figure out what that reason might be, then we can argue about whether it is a good reason. I suggested elsewhere why a QB might do that.

    The reason in the Carolina game for running it down when the two DOG calls resulted is pretty obvious. 8 point lead, 3:30 left in the game, ball in the opponent's territory. You want to burn as much clock as possible. The one on 4th. and 3 may have been intentional: if they don't jump on the hard count, take the penalty and punt.
     
  13. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I'll let that sit right where it is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  14. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    :roflmao:

    So because we are 8-2, there is no need to fix an obvious problem? Come on man, you are better than that! lol

    We can take this back up again after the Packers find themselves out of timeouts at the end of a playoff game and can't get the clock stopped to kick a game winning FG. ;)
     
  15. PackerfaninCarolina

    PackerfaninCarolina Cheesehead

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    Nobody would say it's all Rodgers, hell I'd say sometimes the players simply are simply confused about where to lineup. But I don't see him yelling all that much to them to hurry to the line and try and allow time to get their motions or change things up with. Or more so to catch the other defense with too many on the field.
     
  16. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Maybe. But the proposition assumes that a delay of game penalty is worse than running a play into a bad look. Situationally, taking the penalty might be the better option. In others the time out might be better. In still others the paired run audible call where you're likely to just the down might be preferable.

    Maybe LaFluer's slow on the uptake.

    Maybe the play comes in late on purpose, the team breaking the huddle at 0:11 and sets at 0:05 (like the two DOG calls in the Carolina game) because LaFluer wants to supress Rodgers impulse to audibile. Thus limited, if Rodgers doesn't like what he sees he waits those extra beats to see if the defense resets opening a better option. That would not be good in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  17. XPack

    XPack Cheesehead

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    As far as burning the clock snapping at 4 seconds vs 1 second isn't really going to make a difference in most games. And as to making defenders jump, it's not working at all. It's a very high risk low reward thing to do imo.
     
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  18. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    In the case cited, where there may have been no intention to run a play at all on 4th. and 3 given the situation and field position, there is no downside in failing to get them to jump.
     
  19. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Every team has problems no matter how good their record might be, some of which are not be fixable. The question is which ones do you choose to make an issue out of. In this case, crisper execution might lead to something ranging from marginally better results to something worse. Worse, I say? How could I? Maybe this is the fastest pace these guys can work together to do as well as they do.

    I'm more concerned with chronic underperformance on 3rd. down and the fact the Packers are toward the top of the league in punting frequency. The more recent emphasis on stopping big plays which has led to the opponents metriculating down the field with regularity is concerning. That's a good approach against the McCaffrey Panthers, maybe not so much at a more critical juncture against somebody else.

    This team is above 0.500 on the strength of outperformce in the Red Zone and protecting the ball better than the other guys. They're getting outplayed in the middle 60 yards. That's got to improve on that or they will remain vulnerable in every game left to play.
     
  20. PackerfaninCarolina

    PackerfaninCarolina Cheesehead

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    And 3rd down is when these ridiculous delay of game penalties cost us 5 yards making pass plays more needed. Goes to the issue.
     
  21. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Looking at the entire picture, the Packers have the 6th. fewest offensive penalties and the 10th. fewest offensive penalty yards:

    https://www.nflpenalties.com/phase.php?year=2018&view=total

    Penalties of any stripe don't account for it.

    I've taken a lot of pains to break down the two DOG calls in the Carolina game, plays that seem to have made it some kind of woke discussion topic in this bye week. At the very least, know those two plays were on 2nd. and 4th. down. I'd go hunt down the other plays if I thought a 5 yd. DOG penalty on third down is necessarily more damaging than a 2nd. down holding penalty. But since I don't I won't.
     
  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Actually, it occurred to me I could get a quick answer with a pro-football-reference query and that was the case. Here are all "no plays", i.e. accepted penalties, on 3rd. downs in Packer games this year.

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&match=summary_all&year_min=2019&year_max=2019&team_id=gnb&game_type=R&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter[]=1&quarter[]=2&quarter[]=3&quarter[]=4&quarter[]=5&minutes_max=15&seconds_max=00&minutes_min=00&seconds_min=00&down[]=3&field_pos_min_field=team&field_pos_max_field=team&end_field_pos_min_field=team&end_field_pos_max_field=team&type[]=PASS&type[]=RUSH&type[]=PUNT&type[]=KOFF&type[]=ONSD&type[]=FG&type[]=XP&type[]=2PC&no_play=Y&turnover_type[]=interception&turnover_type[]=fumble&score_type[]=touchdown&score_type[]=field_goal&score_type[]=safety&rush_direction[]=LE&rush_direction[]=LT&rush_direction[]=LG&rush_direction[]=M&rush_direction[]=RG&rush_direction[]=RT&rush_direction[]=RE&pass_location[]=SL&pass_location[]=SM&pass_location[]=SR&pass_location[]=DL&pass_location[]=DM&pass_location[]=DR&order_by=yards

    I count seven Packer penalties on 3rd. down, only one delay of game. Tell the guys to stop holding, jumping, interfering and whatnot. Strike that. These don't get penalized very much in general so don't pick on them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  23. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I think the problem is, you don't think there is a problem or if there is, its a very minor one. So you seem to be taking this stance of "why bother putting any effort into fixing something that isn't much of a problem". While I respect your opinion, your angle of it not being a problem is 180 from mine as well as some of the media and many fans. You won't change my opinion, nor will I try to change yours.

    “That’s something we’re definitely going to have to improve upon,” LaFleur said. “No doubt about it. It’s really unacceptable. We can’t have that.”

    https://www.packersnews.com/story/s...eek-before-san-francisco-showdown/2567847001/

    "Woke discussion"? The Carolina game was just more fuel to the fire, this has been a topic of discussion last year and off and on this season, welcome aboard. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  24. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    As I have noted in another thread the Packers are the second slowest team to snap the ball in the league.

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/pacestats/2019

    While Rodgers might receive some useful information by letting the clock run down on some plays I think the offense should speed up the pace way more often.
     
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  25. scotscheese

    scotscheese Cheesehead

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    we always seem to be more effective when the O speeds up instead of slowing down and taking our time
     
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