Should The Offense Start Doing Away With Hard Counts And Do More Quick Play Calling And Quick Snaps?

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I say yes, we need to start taking a different approach to the tempo of this offense, both to Rodgers and McCarthy. Play clock goes down too far and opposing defenses have too much time to catch their breath. This offense can get more productive drives if instead of trying to draw defenses offsides and working too many hard counts, we switch the approach to quick play calling and snapping the ball before defenses are ready.

Time to focus more on catching opposing defensive coordinators in the middle of substitutions instead of trying to draw guys offsides. They can always discipline defenses not to move at the snap count, but you can easily catch them trying to sub guys in and off the field and getting free plays off of that. I say even if you just gave up a sack, run a no huddle because they'll try and substitute and get caught with their pants down.

 

[PackAttack12]

Rodgers over the years has made both look remarkably easy, but opposing teams have caught on to what Rodgers does with the snap count to try drawing defenders off sides. Those types of free plays have been few and far between for a while now.

I think it's easier to catch teams with 12 men on the field. Rodgers even caught Belichick's Patriots with 12 men on the field last Sunday.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

I say sure why not. But I also have the opinion of why do we have to do this stuff to win games? I guess with what we have it would help. But I'd prefer us to just be good enough to beat teams and not have to rely on that stuff. I have seen many times where we go up to the line and hard count with NO intention of running a play and then waste a time out. Why is that even being done. Its stupid and I wish we could just handle teams straight up.

 

[PikeBadger]

I think hard counts are most effective when used sparingly. It should be used as one tool to create inbalance on the defense.

 

[C-Lee]

100%

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I say sure why not. But I also have the opinion of why do we have to do this stuff to win games? I guess with what we have it would help. But I'd prefer us to just be good enough to beat teams and not have to rely on that stuff. I have seen many times where we go up to the line and hard count with NO intention of running a play and then waste a time out. Why is that even being done. Its stupid and I wish we could just handle teams straight up.

That's the point, I'm imploring the offense to stop the hard counts and go instead towards more no huddle two minute offenses and have the center do sudden snaps so opposing defenses are caught trying to substitute.

I would argue most elite level offenses do this running high tempo and catching defenses with too many men on the field. Take this approach and I'm willing to bet we'd start going back to the days of hanging 35 plus points on the scoreboard again.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

That's the point, I'm imploring the offense to stop the hard counts and go instead towards more no huddle two minute offenses and have the center do sudden snaps so opposing defenses are caught trying to substitute.

I would argue most elite level offenses do this running high tempo and catching defenses with too many men on the field. Take this approach and I'm willing to bet we'd start going back to the days of hanging 35 plus points on the scoreboard again.

Oh then yes I agree 100%. Gotta think the O-line issues are why we aren't doing it yet right? Can't throw from the pocket if there is no pocket.

 

[PackAttack12]

I say sure why not. But I also have the opinion of why do we have to do this stuff to win games? I guess with what we have it would help. But I'd prefer us to just be good enough to beat teams and not have to rely on that stuff. I have seen many times where we go up to the line and hard count with NO intention of running a play and then waste a time out. Why is that even being done. Its stupid and I wish we could just handle teams straight up.

While I most certainly agree with the habit of running the play clock down to near zero (or at zero for that matter), I see no issue whatsoever with trying to catch defenses with 12 men on the field. It's a free play where the offense can take a shot down the field. Absolute worst case scenario, you replay the down from 5 yards ahead of the previous spot.

Best case scenario, you get a situation like what you got the first game of the season in 2017 against Seattle. It was a very low scoring affair. The Packers had a tough time scoring on them. But Rodgers caught them with 12 men on the field, and took a shot to the end zone which resulted in a Jordy Nelson touchdown. That made the difference in the game.

It's not "relying" on it to happen. But if the situation presents itself, there's no sense in not attempting to take advantage. It's essentially like having 5 downs.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Although to rely on it you'll generally be running a higher tempo of offense which can tire a defense out and give them no time to substitute. I've felt we've not done this enough.

 

[PackAttack12]

Although to rely on it you'll generally be running a higher tempo of offense which can tire a defense out and give them no time to substitute. I've felt we've not done this enough.

At this point, I would love to see the Packers go more uptempo in 11 personnel. Get the quick passing game going again, let it open up the run, and thus create opportunities to take it down field.

Adams, MVS, Cobb or St. Brown, Graham, Jones.

The offense needs a spark. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Packers experiment with this on Sunday. Especially against a Miami team that isn't used to playing in cold conditions.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm getting tired of Rodgers allowing the play clock running close to zero on most plays as well. In my opinion it would definitely be smarter to snap the ball quicker on most occasions, no matter if the defense is caught with too many men on the field or jump offsides.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

McCarthy needs to start having his next play ready quicker and make it a point of emphasis for the center to do sudden snaps in practice.

Defenses are catching on to our slow counts.

 

[906Fan]

I wish there was some info I could pull to support it, but I swear it seems like the faster they snap the ball the faster they gain yards.

 

[OldSchool101]

I was just thinking about that. I think it’s hard to do quick snaps when we’ve been quick to do hard counts

 

[Poppa San]

I wonder if sometimes the hard count is actually a no-win play called in the huddle with a loser audible against whatever defensive formation is showing. At which point a hard count is the best option before blowing a time out.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I think the issue is more the routes ran by the receivers and the lack of creativity in getting players open. If you look at the Rams, when Goff is making plays he's throwing to WIDE OPEN receivers based on their scheming and getting them open. And not only that, he's handing off to Gurley when he is at his highest foot speed. McVay is literally light years ahead of McCarthy in creativity and football knowledge. You'd think that given the time McCarthy has been calling plays he'd get better - I have no confidence in him that he's even studied some of these high performing offenses to see what to emulate.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

McCarthy needs to start having his next play ready quicker and make it a point of emphasis for the center to do sudden snaps in practice.

You have to understand that communication between McCarthy and Rodgers is cut off with 15 seconds left on the play clock. Therefore Rodgers is at least partly to blame for snapping the ball late on most plays.

 

[Mondio]

I think the issue is more the routes ran by the receivers and the lack of creativity in getting players open. If you look at the Rams, when Goff is making plays he's throwing to WIDE OPEN receivers based on their scheming and getting them open. And not only that, he's handing off to Gurley when he is at his highest foot speed. McVay is literally light years ahead of McCarthy in creativity and football knowledge. You'd think that given the time McCarthy has been calling plays he'd get better - I have no confidence in him that he's even studied some of these high performing offenses to see what to emulate.

I read these and I wonder if people even watch the games. Rodgers has thrown to plenty of open receivers. Every time I see Adams get the ball with only linebackers anywhere in the picture I always wonder if the football experts on here just watched the same play I did and if it will give them pause before posting, "MM needs to scheme WR's against linebackers like McVay" again. Did you actually watch the Packers Rams game? They hardly had any open receivers. Outside of a couple big plays, that were mostly contested, the Rams didn't have open receivers all game. 1 big one where whitehead probably ent with the wrong guy and left Gurley opn underneath. but let's not pretend that one play is every play.

Gurley is a special back. I'd love to see that offense go without him. I'm guessing McVay wouldn't appear to be as "creative".

There are at least 7-10 plays a game where there is someone very open underneath and it could go for a big play with yac and Rodgers bypasses them for a longer pass. Start hitting a couple of those, start getting a few more first downs and EVERYTHING else opens up. and having a RB that could average 4.5 yards a carry against a run defense would be nice too rather than making hay on light fronts. Keeps a defense honest at least.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I read these and I wonder if people even watch the games. Rodgers has thrown to plenty of open receivers. Every time I see Adams get the ball with only linebackers anywhere in the picture I always wonder if the football experts on here just watched the same play I did and if it will give them pause before posting, "MM needs to scheme WR's against linebackers like McVay" again. Did you actually watch the Packers Rams game? They hardly had any open receivers. Outside of a couple big plays, that were mostly contested, the Rams didn't have open receivers all game. 1 big one where whitehead probably ent with the wrong guy and left Gurley opn underneath. but let's not pretend that one play is every play.

The Packers currently have two receivers within the top 12 in the league based on average separation per target in MVS and Allison. The Rams have only one in Kupp. Yet fans complain there aren't any open receivers for Rodgers to throw to.

 

[Mondio]

The Packers currently have two receivers within the top 12 in the league based on average separation per target in MVS and Allison. The Rams have only one in Kupp. Yet fans complain there aren't any open receivers for Rodgers to throw to.

because I think they spend too much time listening to talking heads and not enough time actually watching football. I hardly watch any compared to what I used to. I used to think i didn't watch enough to really have an opinion, but i'm starting to realize most others have their formed by what they want to think and what others paid to make people listen tell them to have.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

You have to understand that communication between McCarthy and Rodgers is cut off with 15 seconds left on the play clock. Therefore Rodgers is at least partly to blame for snapping the ball late on most plays.

I hold him responsible too, but it doesn't seem like this team comes into games up to polish on quick snaps even in our 2 minute offense. I just feel more like if MM was pushing his center to just start snapping that ball suddenly that we'd be ready for it even more and we'd pick up even more 12 men on the field penalties.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I read these and I wonder if people even watch the games. Rodgers has thrown to plenty of open receivers. Every time I see Adams get the ball with only linebackers anywhere in the picture I always wonder if the football experts on here just watched the same play I did and if it will give them pause before posting, "MM needs to scheme WR's against linebackers like McVay" again. Did you actually watch the Packers Rams game? They hardly had any open receivers. Outside of a couple big plays, that were mostly contested, the Rams didn't have open receivers all game. 1 big one where whitehead probably ent with the wrong guy and left Gurley opn underneath. but let's not pretend that one play is every play.

Gurley is a special back. I'd love to see that offense go without him. I'm guessing McVay wouldn't appear to be as "creative".

There are at least 7-10 plays a game where there is someone very open underneath and it could go for a big play with yac and Rodgers bypasses them for a longer pass. Start hitting a couple of those, start getting a few more first downs and EVERYTHING else opens up. and having a RB that could average 4.5 yards a carry against a run defense would be nice too rather than making hay on light fronts. Keeps a defense honest at least.

Gurley did nothing without McVay the year prior to his hiring and Malcolm Brown has looked really good in that offense too. Reynolds murdered us, Woods had open receptions, Gurley was schemed open in the passing game. They made us look silly with their trick play to Shields. Their creativity, play action and game speed are second to none. I mean, it's all right there on tape for you to see. And they did all that without one of their favourite red zone targets, Kupp. They are on another tier with their playcalling, it's just that simple. So yes, I watch the games and have been for two decades... There is a lot to learn with what McVay is doing.

 

[FaninColorado]

You can't just do one style of hard counts and snaps. Or the other team will learn how to not be surprised by it. You have to do a mixture of quick snaps, to the hard count, to a standard snap and count... One trick ponies don't win for very long in this league. The coaches and players are just too good to not learn.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

You can't just do one style of hard counts and snaps. Or the other team will learn how to not be surprised by it. You have to do a mixture of quick snaps, to the hard count, to a standard snap and count... One trick ponies don't win for very long in this league. The coaches and players are just too good to not learn.

Seems like since 2011 ended, MM just hasn't pushed the offense enough to hurry to the line and do quick snaps.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Amen. I have been beating this drum for a long time! Rodgers had a ton of success at getting free plays in the past, so much it was all the media was talking about and I think they even changed the rules because of it, blowing the play dead when the jump occurs and the ball isn't immediately snapped. But the free lunch is over, teams know its coming and for the most part aren't biting anymore.

This has almost become a bad habit for #12 to try and get the free play whenever he can, that he not only burns timeouts, makes his own players flinch, gets a delay of game called.....but I think more importantly, he is putting way too much cognitive effort into it. Feels like he may be ignoring other things that he should be doing during the pre-snap because he is so focused on his trickster hard count.

I don't think the Packer offense needs to always play in the hurry up, but mix it up a bit and use it more. As the OP and others said, there is just as much, if not more value catching the defense running guys on and off the field and THAT free play, then what you get for a guy jumping off sides. Save the hard count tricks for key moments in the game, when you really need 5 yards.