Giant stud n duds

[adambr2]

per MLF, "“We don’t win that game without Malik.” So wtf does he not use him more!!!!?

Well, we don’t win the game without Love, either. I think he was just pointing out that Malik did his job well.

 

[tynimiller]

I really believe we’re missing out on using Willis more in specific packages. Similar to how Sean Payton used his QB Taysom Hill. Malik is a very talented and athletic QB and personally I think we’re missing an occasional opportunity to use his skill set.

Oh. Trust me. We have such a thing…likely specific scenario deployment

 

[milani]

Well, we don’t win the game without Love, either. I think he was just pointing out that Malik did his job well.

I think because it was a one score win MLF is inferring that if that Malik drive did not happen while Love was out then we lose. A lot of times the back up who is rushed out there just protects the ball and you punt.

 

[rmontro]

I think your interpretation is I want to pull Love and that’s not my thought at all. I’m speaking to a designed pair of plays across 65 snaps

No, I get what you're saying. I'm not even against it. I'm just saying my only real qualm with it is that it might disrupt Love's rhythm. And that bringing Willis in for specific plays might give opponents a clue as to what we might be running.

 

[Guacamole]

No, I get what you're saying. I'm not even against it. I'm just saying my only real qualm with it is that it might disrupt Love's rhythm. And that bringing Willis in for specific plays might give opponents a clue as to what we might be running.

"might disrupt"...."might give".... "might be running"....

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Not saying you're wrong, but every time this idea comes up, I always worry that doing that would give the defense a better idea of what we're about to do.

Kind of like the 4th and 1 play against the Eagles?

I have to agree with the concept of using Willis occasionally. The proof for doing so was apparent against the Giants and last year when he filled in for Love.

Imagine had the Packers trotted out Willis on that 4th and 1 play against the Eagles. The defense would have been like "oh heck, we didn't study for this, what are they pulling?" Instead, MLF went to his tired and old bag of "tricks" and ran a play that the Eagles had seen on film a number of times in the game. I think their defense was more prepared for the play than our offense.

I've said it before, I don't watch a ton of other games. However, when I do, I take mental notes of what other teams are doing. Keeping the defense guessing seems to be an offenses biggest weapon.

One another note. I also couldn't help but notice something in the Bronco's-Chiefs game. Tony Romo was doing the commentary and was talking about Denver's young QB Bo Nix. He made a comment that basically said "Sean Payton isn't doing Bo any favors by not getting the play calls in faster, he needs to allow his QB more time to walk up to the LOS and get a good look at what the defense is doing, so he can audible out if necessary." Lights started flashing in my head, this is exactly the problem I have been complaining about with MLF for years. Love and the offense are often huddled up painfully long and its obvious that he is waiting for the play call to come in from MLF. The communications from MLF to Love cut off at 15 seconds left on the play clock, but if MLF is waiting to finish his play call transmission at that mark, he's not putting his QB or his offense in a good position by doing so. He's forcing Love to tell everyone else what the play is, have them all process it and get set at the LOS. Meanwhile, the play clock is rapidly approaching zero and Love's ability to process what the defense is up to is all but gone. Do better MLF and if you can't....let someone else call the plays.

 

[mradtke66]

Imagine had the Packers trotted out Willis on that 4th and 1 play against the Eagles. The defense would have been like "oh heck, we didn't study for this, what are they pulling?" Instead, MLF went to his tired and old bag of "tricks" and ran a play that the Eagles had seen on film a number of times in the game. I think their defense was more prepared for the play than our offense.

I don't like swapping in QBs in two-minute situations. You are almost required to take both remaining timeouts in this situation. One to change everything/put Willis in and possibly another to get Love back in on 1st down.

Of course they should have called their 2nd timeout instead of scrambling to the line and having the defense calling out exactly what they wanted to run.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Unless Musgraves is injured, all one has to do is look at the snap counts from yesterday, to know that even MLF and the coaches have all but given up on him.

In the second half against the Giants, John FitzPatrick played 16 snaps, Josh Whyle played 11 and Musgrave played only 2.

Whyle was a fricking roster addition at the end of August and has been sitting on the Practice Squad before Tucker got hurt.

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Agree that Musgrave is a bust. He's been given a huge chance and hasn't delivered at all. It's a bitter pill to see a second round pick fail to provide much of anything. When your "best" TE was snagged off the practice squad, you're generally in big trouble. Coordinators have lots of ways of exploiting holes in the roster.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't like swapping in QBs in two-minute situations. You are almost required to take both remaining timeouts in this situation. One to change everything/put Willis in and possibly another to get Love back in on 1st down.

Of course they should have called their 2nd timeout instead of scrambling to the line and having the defense calling out exactly what they wanted to run.

I guess I don't view it any differently than trotting Savion Williams in for the Wildcat or really substitution of any player. If you practice it enough, anything is possible.

Like you alluded to, that 4th and 1 was a HUGE and critical play. Rushing it, to run a predictable call, was a HUGE mistake on MLF's part. I also don't think that the Packers were in that big of a time crunch. There was 1:45 left on the game clock at the end of the 9 yard, 3rd down completion to Musgrave. With 2 timeouts and sitting at your own 44, there was no need to be in such a hurry that you make a rushed and bad play call.

 

[mradtke66]

I guess I don't view it any differently than trotting Savion Williams in for the Wildcat or really substitution of any player. If you practice it enough, anything is possible.

Which is why I'm picking specifically on the 4th down play. In general, I'm not a fan of doing wildcat stuff when you have a good QB. Time and place, sure, but even once per game is probably enough to have me questioning it.

Like you alluded to, that 4th and 1 was a HUGE and critical play. Rushing it, to run a predictable call, was a HUGE mistake on MLF's part. I also don't think that the Packers were in that big of a time crunch. There was 1:45 left on the game clock at the end of the 9 yard, 3rd down completion to Musgrave. With 2 timeouts and sitting at your own 44, there was no need to be in such a hurry that you make a rushed and bad play call.

Which again, I'm agreeing with. I don't even mind rushing to the line, I dislike everything that happened after that. Though I'm not sure who exactly to blame here. IMHO, Love should be calling a timeout or changing the play in that situation. It looked like an automatic call or there were two plays in the huddle, which fine, but reality required something else.

 

[rmontro]

Imagine had the Packers trotted out Willis on that 4th and 1 play against the Eagles. The defense would have been like "oh heck, we didn't study for this, what are they pulling?" Instead, MLF went to his tired and old bag of "tricks" and ran a play that the Eagles had seen on film a number of times in the game. I think their defense was more prepared for the play than our offense.

That sounds like a good spot to use him. As for keeping defenses guessing, that seemed to be something MLF used to be good at, but not so much anymore.

 

[rmontro]

"might disrupt"...."might give".... "might be running"....

Might not.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not a fan of doing wildcat stuff when you have a good QB

1000% agree on this. Even if you have a bad QB, has Savion Williams done anything BUT run the ball from the Wildcat? Has he ever gained any yardage? Like I alluded to in my last post, keep the defense guessing. When Williams lines up in a WC, seems like all they are guessing is the snap count and maybe which direction he is heading.

IMHO, Love should be calling a timeout or changing the play in that situation. It looked like an automatic call or there were two plays in the huddle, which fine, but reality required something else.

Honestly, I think MLF has made Love play too fast and a bit scared. I'd even guess that he wasn't given the option there to audible out. This goes back to what I said a couple of weeks ago. I really believe that once Rodgers was gone MLF said to himself "No way am I going to ever let a QB take control of my offense again like AR did." So he drilled it into Jordan Love that LeFleur was the play caller and audibling wasn't going to be an open ended option on every play.

This is Love's 5th year in the NFL and his 3rd as the starting QB. It is time that MLF either loosen the reigns on Love or hand the play calling off to someone that will. I would love to see the offense mix up their tempo and run some no huddle, let Love call the play at the LOS and keep the defenses winded and guessing. This huddle up, break the huddle with under 15 on the play clock and giving Jordan little options other than to stick with Matt's call is handicapping the offense.

We are 10 games into the season. The offense appears to be about the same one that trotted in Week 1. Maybe some of the early success of the offense was the fact that defenses didn't have a lot of tape to watch and see what MLF had in store for them in 2025. Well, the Eagles defense proved just how predictable the Packer offense is on that crucial 4th and 1 play. Is the youth of the players holding MLF back from adding new wrinkles? Or is it just that MLF is bound and determined to make the offense work with the plans he drew up this past summer for it?

 

[tynimiller]

1000% agree on this. Even if you have a bad QB, has Savion Williams done anything BUT run the ball from the Wildcat? Has he ever gained any yardage? Like I alluded to in my last post, keep the defense guessing. When Williams lines up in a WC, seems like all they are guessing is the snap count and maybe which direction he is heading.

Why do you keep avoiding the stats we've provided lol

We broke down Savion has been very productive on jet sweeps, much to the disliking of all of us LOL

 

[Magooch]

Full breakdown of all of Savion's involvements thus far.

Detroit:
1 yard rec, middle, -0.46 expected points

Washington:
rush for 8 yards, +0.54 expected points
rush for 16 yards, +1.47 expected points

Cleveland:
rush for 2 yards, -0.44 expected points
rush for -3 yards, -0.95 expected points

Dallas:
16 yard rec, middle, +0.49 expected points
rush for 1 yard, -0.41 expected points
4 yard rec, short right, -0.04 expected points
2 yard rec, short right, -0.28 expected points

Cincinnatti:
rush for 3 yards, -0.13 expected points

Pittsburgh
rush for 1 yard, -0.40 expected points
8 yard rec, short left, TD, +7.00 (no "expected points" here as it was, you know, actual points lol)

Carolina
rush for no gain, fumble, -4.37 expected points
6 yard rec, middle, +0.27 expected points
6 yard rec, short left, +0.99 expected points

Philly
2 yard rec, short right, -0.44 expected points
rec for no gain, middle, -0.54 expected points

NYG
33 yard rec, deep left, +3.41 expected points

I would have to go back and be sure but if my memory serves me correct a lot of those short passes left/right are going to be jet sweeps or screen passes but I would have to rewatch to be 100%. I know for instance his TD vs Steelers was a WR screen left. But anywho take that for what it's worth one way or another

 

[gopkrs]

Why do you keep avoiding the stats we've provided lol

We broke down Savion has been very productive on jet sweeps, much to the disliking of all of us LOL

Well, how many has he done? Can't be too damn many. Can you give yardage on each play? One gain could skewer the average. I guess we are only talking jet sweeps. I wouldn't mind seeing the not very many wildcats as well. That was quite a catch he made. And on a bad foot. He was kind of hurting after. But he'll have to show he can make those first down catches. Unlike too many others recently.

 

[gopkrs]

Full breakdown of all of Savion's involvements thus far.

Detroit:
1 yard rec, middle, -0.46 expected points

Washington:
rush for 8 yards, +0.54 expected points
rush for 16 yards, +1.47 expected points

Cleveland:
rush for 2 yards, -0.44 expected points
rush for -3 yards, -0.95 expected points

Dallas:
16 yard rec, middle, +0.49 expected points
rush for 1 yard, -0.41 expected points
4 yard rec, short right, -0.04 expected points
2 yard rec, short right, -0.28 expected points

Cincinnatti:
rush for 3 yards, -0.13 expected points

Pittsburgh
rush for 1 yard, -0.40 expected points
8 yard rec, short left, TD, +7.00 (no "expected points" here as it was, you know, actual points lol)

Carolina
rush for no gain, fumble, -4.37 expected points
6 yard rec, middle, +0.27 expected points
6 yard rec, short left, +0.99 expected points

Philly
2 yard rec, short right, -0.44 expected points
rec for no gain, middle, -0.54 expected points

NYG
33 yard rec, deep left, +3.41 expected points

I would have to go back and be sure but if my memory serves me correct a lot of those short passes left/right are going to be jet sweeps or screen passes but I would have to rewatch to be 100%. I know for instance his TD vs Steelers was a WR screen left. But anywho take that for what it's worth one way or another

Kind of makes it sound like there were no incompletions.

 

[Magooch]

Kind of makes it sound like there were no incompletions.

As far as I know that is the case. 10 targets, 10 completions. But to be fair as I mentioned (or at least... hinted at lol) things like jet sweeps are often technically considered a "target" and "reception" as the QB is releasing the ball forward. So by nature it is an extremely high catch percentage on those lol. But in any case it would be accurate to say he doesn't have any drops/incompletions when targeted, limited as that may be

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why do you keep avoiding the stats we've provided lol

We broke down Savion has been very productive on jet sweeps, much to the disliking of all of us LOL

I was talking about Savion running from the Wildcat position, not jet sweeps.

Even if you have a bad QB, has Savion Williams done anything BUT run the ball from the Wildcat? Has he ever gained any yardage? Like I alluded to in my last post, keep the defense guessing. When Williams lines up in a WC, seems like all they are guessing is the snap count and maybe which direction he is heading.

 

[tynimiller]

I was talking about Savion running from the Wildcat position, not jet sweeps.

LOL, gotcha
I don't think we've ran wildcat with him, only Tucker

 

[DoURant]

One another note. I also couldn't help but notice something in the Bronco's-Chiefs game. Tony Romo was doing the commentary and was talking about Denver's young QB Bo Nix. He made a comment that basically said "Sean Payton isn't doing Bo any favors by not getting the play calls in faster, he needs to allow his QB more time to walk up to the LOS and get a good look at what the defense is doing, so he can audible out if necessary." Lights started flashing in my head, this is exactly the problem I have been complaining about with MLF for years. Love and the offense are often huddled up painfully long and its obvious that he is waiting for the play call to come in from MLF. The communications from MLF to Love cut off at 15 seconds left on the play clock, but if MLF is waiting to finish his play call transmission at that mark, he's not putting his QB or his offense in a good position by doing so. He's forcing Love to tell everyone else what the play is, have them all process it and get set at the LOS. Meanwhile, the play clock is rapidly approaching zero and Love's ability to process what the defense is up to is all but gone. Do better MLF and if you can't....let someone else call the plays.

Could be the reason Aaron called so many timeouts, he saw it was the wrong call, but not enough time to audible a new play call.

 

[mradtke66]

LOL, gotcha
I don't think we've ran wildcat with him, only Tucker

We've done it 2-3 times IIRC, we've used Tucker as a dedicated sneak man to save wear and tear on Love.

I'm not a huge fan, but doing it w/ a receiver is less offensive to me. You don't tip your hand just by personnel groupings and doing it just often enough (once every 3-ish games seems fine) gives the defense something to worry about and waste precious practice time.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We've done it 2-3 times IIRC, we've used Tucker as a dedicated sneak man to save wear and tear on Love.

I'm not a huge fan, but doing it w/ a receiver is less offensive to me. You don't tip your hand just by personnel groupings and doing it just often enough (once every 3-ish games seems fine) gives the defense something to worry about and waste precious practice time.

I probably wasn't really clear and I apologize to you all for that. In my head I was thinking about that 4th and 1 play against the Eagles, as it pertains to the possibility of bringing Malik Willis in, for situations such as that. We already know that the play called was blown up by the Eagles, as well on both sides of the ball, players knew what was coming, before the snap. That is a big tell to me, and one of "predictability". Sure you could run Savion in the WC on that play, but I just don't think you are going to be fooling anyone by doing that. On the other hand, you bring Malik Willis in and he can run a RPO quite well.

Bottom line for me is that I don't think MLF is a smart play caller under pressure. I don't think that MLF calls plays fast enough either. How many times during the course of an NFL game are we shown another teams OC, sitting up in the press box, 3-5 other coaches next to him, monitors and sheets of paper covering the desks in front of them? With that setup you have lots of brains processing a lot of available information. So instead of deciding your current move in an instant (MLF), you have guys thinking what the next 3 or more play calls could be, depending on the results of each proceeding play.

 

[mradtke66]

I probably wasn't really clear and I apologize to you all for that. In my head I was thinking about that 4th and 1 play against the Eagles, as it pertains to the possibility of bringing Malik Willis in, for situations such as that.

Yup and I don't like it in that situation. Enough chaos as it is in end of game situations. And we're likely taking Love off the field entirely because of helmet radios.

That is a big tell to me, and one of "predictability".

Again, I don't like how it played out, but the solution should have take a timeout and think about it, talk it over.

Bottom line for me is that I don't think MLF is a smart play caller under pressure.

Subject, but maybe.

I don't think that MLF calls plays fast enough either.

That's still hard to determine. It could be the playcalls are too long. Could be Love is stumbling over the calls in the huddle. Could also be when two plays are sent in for a built in can/kill.

I'm willing to say that we get to the line later than is optimal sometimes, but I don't know where the problem is. Too many moving parts. Some of the blame is the kids not lining up properly all the time. If Loves yelling at Golden or Wicks to switch sides, that's wasting precious seconds.

How many times during the course of an NFL game are we shown another teams OC, sitting up in the press box, 3-5 other coaches next to him, monitors and sheets of paper covering the desks in front of them? With that setup you have lots of brains processing a lot of available information. So instead of deciding your current move in an instant (MLF), you have guys thinking what the next 3 or more play calls could be, depending on the results of each proceeding play.

The problem there is you presume that isn't happening with MLF. They have radios from the HC to the booth. He's got his playsheet, he's got his guys upstairs. It's probably more similar than you realize. The comms have to happen at minimum to make sure substitutions are happening properly.

 

[milani]

Kind of like the 4th and 1 play against the Eagles?

I have to agree with the concept of using Willis occasionally. The proof for doing so was apparent against the Giants and last year when he filled in for Love.

Imagine had the Packers trotted out Willis on that 4th and 1 play against the Eagles. The defense would have been like "oh heck, we didn't study for this, what are they pulling?" Instead, MLF went to his tired and old bag of "tricks" and ran a play that the Eagles had seen on film a number of times in the game. I think their defense was more prepared for the play than our offense.

I've said it before, I don't watch a ton of other games. However, when I do, I take mental notes of what other teams are doing. Keeping the defense guessing seems to be an offenses biggest weapon.

One another note. I also couldn't help but notice something in the Bronco's-Chiefs game. Tony Romo was doing the commentary and was talking about Denver's young QB Bo Nix. He made a comment that basically said "Sean Payton isn't doing Bo any favors by not getting the play calls in faster, he needs to allow his QB more time to walk up to the LOS and get a good look at what the defense is doing, so he can audible out if necessary." Lights started flashing in my head, this is exactly the problem I have been complaining about with MLF for years. Love and the offense are often huddled up painfully long and its obvious that he is waiting for the play call to come in from MLF. The communications from MLF to Love cut off at 15 seconds left on the play clock, but if MLF is waiting to finish his play call transmission at that mark, he's not putting his QB or his offense in a good position by doing so. He's forcing Love to tell everyone else what the play is, have them all process it and get set at the LOS. Meanwhile, the play clock is rapidly approaching zero and Love's ability to process what the defense is up to is all but gone. Do better MLF and if you can't....let someone else call the plays.

If Willis was trotted out as the QB the Eagles would have thought play fake or a bootleg. May have forced them to use a TO.