Fire Capers

[Poppa San]

Punctuation is your friend.

We will speak no more on this. From the rules:

If anyone here ever has an issue with how someone types, spells, or using the wrong word, for instance:
Receiving core and not receiving corp (we had to lay this out perfectly because some posters were confused)
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[Deleted member 6794]

Since I don't see the Packers parting ways with TT, until TT decides when he wants to go, the only logical answer is to show Capers the door. We really don't know if the entire team would be better or worse without TT, but I am not so sure the defense has a lot to lose by firing Capers and going with a new DC. The frustrating part for me, is that Capers has had very limited success for the past 6 seasons and there have been plenty of young up and coming defensive coaches available to hire during that time. Yet, for whatever reason, the Packers seem to be content with throwing a disproportionate amount of draft resources at Capers and getting very little in results.

McCarthy is absolutely comfortable keeping Capers around, in my opinion indicating that he blames a lack of talent for the defensive struggles. On the other hand Murphy appears to be content with the job Thompson has done to address the unit's shortcomings, resulting in the Packers holding on to both although there hasn't been significant improvement.

I'm not familiar with this quote from Woodson? Anyone have a link or more details? He said Capers defense was complex AND predictable? If so, seems like a bad combination.

Here's a link to a story including some quotes by Woodson after the 2012 playoff loss to the Niners:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/52255/packers-watch-as-colin-kaepernick-runs-by

The Packers released him a month later without offering to restructure his contract first.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Capers has to get away from Nickel and Dime packages and attack from the base.

Packers fans finally have to understand there's no other way to successfully defend opposing offenses lining up in three plus receiver sets.

 

[rmontro]

Here's a link to a story including some quotes by Woodson after the 2012 playoff loss to the Niners:

Thanks for that. Green Bay's defense was so bad in that game the article was talking about carving a Hall of Fame bust for Kaepernick. Something that seems less likely now. Yet another historic failure for Capers. Kaepernick rushed for the most yards of any QB ever in any game, and the 49ers ran up the fourth highest yard total in playoff history.

Woodson was critical of Capers, but I didn't see anything about him saying the defense was complex or predictable. He said there was a lack of adjustments. Woodson's not a guy who's used to getting embarrassed.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Thanks for that. Green Bay's defense was so bad in that game the article was talking about carving a Hall of Fame bust for Kaepernick. Something that seems less likely now. Yet another historic failure for Capers. Kaepernick rushed for the most yards of any QB ever in any game, and the 49ers ran up the fourth highest yard total in playoff history.

Woodson was critical of Capers, but I didn't see anything about him saying the defense was complex or predictable. He said there was a lack of adjustments. Woodson's not a guy who's used to getting embarrassed.

Just to clarify, I never said Woodson mentioned anything about Capers' defense being complex and predictable but suggested that there's not enough accountability for the unit's shortcomings. In addition the Packers have gotten rid of players being critical of the team in the past with Woodson being a prime example.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

McCarthy is absolutely comfortable keeping Capers around, in my opinion indicating that he blames a lack of talent for the defensive struggles. On the other hand Murphy appears to be content with the job Thompson has done to address the unit's shortcomings, resulting in the Packers holding on to both although there hasn't been significant improvement.



Here's a link to a story including some quotes by Woodson after the 2012 playoff loss to the Niners:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/52255/packers-watch-as-colin-kaepernick-runs-by

The Packers released him a month later without offering to restructure his contract first.

Goodness forbid that McCarthy takes personal responsibility for anything. He's kept a bum DC around for at least 3 years too long, one who has had limitless first rounders at his disposal. Where is all of this devastating talent on NE, whose defense is always tops? Or Atlanta, who made Caper's unit look like they belonged in the CFL by comparison?

I'm sure Capers sees tons of college players that he knows would be a good fit in his system, but TT won't draft them just because he enjoys playing God. You think after being employed for that long, he would get a say. TT is clearly trying to help him out. We need a DC who not only doesn't get outclassed on Sundays, but actually has an eye for talent and can give a GM a good draft wish list.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Goodness forbid that McCarthy takes personal responsibility for anything. He's kept a bum DC around for at least 3 years too long, one who has had limitless first rounders at his disposal. Where is all of this devastating talent on NE, whose defense is always tops? Or Atlanta, who made Caper's unit look like they belonged in the CFL by comparison?

I'm sure Capers sees tons of college players that he knows would be a good fit in his system, but TT won't draft them just because he enjoys playing God. You think after being employed for that long, he would get a say. TT is clearly trying to help him out. We need a DC who not only doesn't get outclassed on Sundays, but actually has an eye for talent and can give a GM a good draft wish list.

I'm not convinced Capers has a voice in the Packers drafting defensive players.

Actually it doesn't matter though as it's pretty obvious to everyone aside of the people in charge that the combination of Thompson selecting college prospects for DC's scheme doesn't work yet the team is holding on to both, for some reason believing it will deliver different results at some point.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

He's kept a bum DC around for at least 3 years too long

I'm comfortable saying that it's been five years too long. 2011 defense was as bad as the offense was good, turnovers being the seeming sole redeeming factor. 2012 would have been the year to fix that, and they drafted heavily on offense instead, suggesting they thought their personnel should have been enough. 2013 should have seen us with a new DC in my eyes.

 

[AKCheese]

I really have no input or opinion, I just think it's hilarious this thread has been going this long!!

 

[Poppa San]

It wouldn't have gone as long if MM had listened to us when it started.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Someday, we'll all look back on this thread and reminisce, even after Dom has passed. But if at that time it is unlocked and the Packers have a particularly bad outing on defense that Sunday, someone will venture back in here and post....

"FIRE CAPERS!"

 

[rodell330]

Was the defense predictable and complex in 2010?

You're comparing apples to oranges. Packers had a great secondary, pass rushers, and veterans. They also played a lot more man.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Packers had a great secondary, pass rushers, and veterans. They also played a lot more man.

And those veteran players were developed/acquired prior to the Capers regime. Thompson hit on Matthews and Raji for the 3-4 conversion who were in their second year sweet spot.

 

[rodell330]

Mostly that the front office and coaching staff aren't held acccountable in Green Bay as Woodson was gone not long after his comments while Thompson and Capers are still around more than four years later.

Exactly

 

[AmishMafia]

Goodness forbid that McCarthy takes personal responsibility for anything. He's kept a bum DC around for at least 3 years too long, one who has had limitless first rounders at his disposal. Where is all of this devastating talent on NE, whose defense is always tops? Or Atlanta, who made Caper's unit look like they belonged in the CFL by comparison?

I'm sure Capers sees tons of college players that he knows would be a good fit in his system, but TT won't draft them just because he enjoys playing God. You think after being employed for that long, he would get a say. TT is clearly trying to help him out. We need a DC who not only doesn't get outclassed on Sundays, but actually has an eye for talent and can give a GM a good draft wish list.

MM doesn't take responsibility
TT plays God

Schhhhesssh!

I'm not convinced Capers has a voice in the Packers drafting defensive players.

DC is responsible for the formula. Each season it is tweaked to adjust for evolving scheme/NFL trends. The formula is used by scouts to score each player.

He definitely voices his opinions in the final meeting for setting final score. How much TT weighs his opinion in the final score though is debateable.

 

[rmontro]

MM doesn't take responsibility

As much as I like McCarthy as an offensive coach, he's responsible for the defensive coordinator as well. I'm sure he has a good rapport with Capers and likes working with him, but I mean damn look at the results. The defense just isn't getting it done. The only logical explanation I can come up with is that McCarthy knows TT isn't giving him the players, but of course he can't say that without jeopardizing his job.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Packers had a great secondary, pass rushers, and veterans. They also played a lot more man.

It proves that Capers is definitely capable of fielding an elite defense when provided enough talent players. It's on Thompson to achieve that.

And those veteran players were developed/acquired prior to the Capers regime. Thompson hit on Matthews and Raji for the 3-4 conversion who were in their second year sweet spot.

Capers was the one who developed both Matthews and Raji at the pro level though.

DC is responsible for the formula. Each season it is tweaked to adjust for evolving scheme/NFL trends. The formula is used by scouts to score each player.

He definitely voices his opinions in the final meeting for setting final score. How much TT weighs his opinion in the final score though is debateable.

Unfortunately I'm not convinced Thompson has drafted players suited for Capers' scheme in the past. That makes it even more perplexing that both are still around.

 

[gopkrs]

I wonder about how much hands on Capers does. He is never on the field during a game and he does not seem to make adjustments while he is up there. ..so what is the point of not being on the field? Does he interact with players during practice or does he sit up high someplace and just watch?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Capers was the one who developed both Matthews and Raji at the pro level though.

I don't see Capers developing anything here. Thompson happened to hit on a couple of day one plug-and-play rookies. Capers did manage to burn out Raji on foolishly high snap counts.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

It proves that Capers is definitely capable of fielding an elite defense when provided enough talent players. It's on Thompson to achieve that.



Capers was the one who developed both Matthews and Raji at the pro level though.



Unfortunately I'm not convinced Thompson has drafted players suited for Capers' scheme in the past. That makes it even more perplexing that both are still around.

Capers didn't develop crap. If he were capable of it, we wouldn't have a defense comprised of girly men now. He proved he could field a top defense which had two DPOYs and one of the best safeties in the league. That's not proving much, in my eyes.

The talent is the biggest issue, but the second year drop-off of our CBs is concerning. It can't be a coincidence that a team like Atlanta is now filled with young defensive talent, just a couple of seasons after their new coach came along.

 

[rmontro]

It can't be a coincidence that a team like Atlanta is now filled with young defensive talent, just a couple of seasons after their new coach came along.

Yeah, I'm concerned about Atlanta. Their offense is very balanced and effective, and Dan Quinn was the DC for the Seahawks. If he can install a defense similar to Seattle's in Atlanta, they're probably going to be the team to beat, for years to come. If we can't solve our defensive problems, we're going to continue to be also rans.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't see Capers developing anything here. Thompson happened to hit on a couple of day one plug-and-play rookies. Capers did manage to burn out Raji on foolishly high snap counts.

It's ridiculous to suggest Capers is to blame for most defensive players not turning into solid contributors but not giving him any credit for developing Matthews and Raji.

Capers didn't develop crap. If he were capable of it, we wouldn't have a defense comprised of girly men now. He proved he could field a top defense which had two DPOYs and one of the best safeties in the league. That's not proving much, in my eyes.

Most elite defenses feature players deserving of being considered as DPOYs. Unfortunately the Packers completely lack a single one worth of being in that discussion though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The thing with Capers is this. He may have had or still has a brilliant defensive mind, but blame it on the lack of talent he has been given, injuries or whatever, the bottom line is what has he done for us lately?

Since 2011 his defensive rankings on yards per game have been ranked: 2011 – 32nd-ranked defense, 2012 – 11th, 2013 – 25th, 2014 – 15th, 2015 – 15th , 2016 – 22nd.

His points per game rankings are 2011 – 19th, 2012 – 11, 2013 – 24th, 2014 – 13th, 2015 – 12th and 2016 – 21st.

Those Stats are for the regular season. I am guessing that the postseason is even worse.

With Green Bay pumping a disproportionate share of their draft resources into the defense starting in 2012, you would expect these numbers to be much better. Blame TT all you want and yes, he and his scouts have some blame in this, but come on, how long do you give a guy to prove he is a great DC?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The thing with Capers is this. He may have had or still has a brilliant defensive mind, but blame it on the lack of talent he has been given, injuries or whatever, the bottom line is what has he done for us lately?

Since 2011 his defensive rankings on yards per game have been ranked: 2011 – 32nd-ranked defense, 2012 – 11th, 2013 – 25th, 2014 – 15th, 2015 – 15th , 2016 – 22nd.

His points per game rankings are 2011 – 19th, 2012 – 11, 2013 – 24th, 2014 – 13th, 2015 – 12th and 2016 – 21st.

Those Stats are for the regular season. I am guessing that the postseason is even worse.

With Green Bay pumping a disproportionate share of their draft resources into the defense starting in 2012, you would expect these numbers to be much better. Blame TT all you want and yes, he and his scouts have some blame in this, but come on, how long do you give a guy to prove he is a great DC?

It's close to impossible to fairly evaluate who deserves the lion's share for the defensive struggles over the past six seasons. It's perplexing the Packers have held on to both Thompson and Capers over that period while expecting different results though.

 

[jakemillar]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Packers had a great secondary, pass rushers, and veterans. They also played a lot more man.

I see a lot of people saying that Capers used to play more man coverage? The Packers played more snaps in 2-Man coverage last year than any team in the NFL... Also, sprinkled throughout the season, Capers made some masterful calls at key points in games that directly contributed to big plays for the defense. The two Haha Clinton-Dix INTs VS the Colts were both disguised trap coverages that fooled Andrew Luck and TY Hilton. There are many of these throughout the season that I saw and was really impressed with.

There are also bad moments, but one thing to consider is that, the Packers played the best offense in the NFL, with the best WR, who also boast the (far and away) best offensive mind in all of football in Kyle Shanahan, in their stadium, twice last year. Truthfully, the Falcons won probably 5 of their games before they even kicked the ball off based entirely on Kyle Shanhan's play calls/play designs. He embarrassed every good D coordinator in the entire NFL on occasion last season. Those were IMO the Packers two worst games defensively all year. I think it's sometimes helpful to keep that in context a little bit.