Fire Capers

[HardRightEdge]

It's ridiculous to suggest Capers is to blame for most defensive players not turning into solid contributors but not giving him any credit for developing Matthews and Raji.

Not as ridiculous as you might think.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There are also bad moments, but one thing to consider is that, the Packers played the best offense in the NFL, with the best WR, who also boast the (far and away) best offensive mind in all of football in Kyle Shanahan, in their stadium, twice last year. Truthfully, the Falcons won probably 5 of their games before they even kicked the ball off based entirely on Kyle Shanhan's play calls/play designs. He embarrassed every good D coordinator in the entire NFL on occasion last season. Those were IMO the Packers two worst games defensively all year. I think it's sometimes helpful to keep that in context a little bit.

Which is probably why people who think the Packers should win a SB or should have won a SB in the last 6 years, should keep the current defense and DC in context, they haven't been SB quality.

 

[jakemillar]

Which is probably why people who think the Packers should win a SB or should have won a SB in the last 6 years, should keep the current defense and DC in context, they haven't been SB quality.

Your defense does not need to be elite to win a SB; it just helps. Conversely, neither does your offense as proven by the Broncos. It also just helps.

The Packers defense in 2014 specifically was the best defense not from Seattle down the stretch that year and would have won the Super Bowl if not for a botched onside kick recover, so the narrative that people are hanging onto here about how the "Packers haven't won a Super Bowl in 6 years because the defense hasn't been championship caliber, its Dom Capers fault" doesn't hold any water. Any Packers fan would tell you that 2014 defense 100% was a championship caliber defense.

If Bostick catches that ball and GB goes on to win a SB following the 2014 season, the defensive rankings wouldn't change at all to what they are now, but all the people who poke and prod at Capers' defenses "bad numbers" wouldn't have anything to say and this thread would have died on that February day in 2015.

There is a certain percent of fans on the "Fire Capers" bandwagon that fall into this sort of thing, and it's just plainly wrong, irrational, or both.
It's entirely possible that a "championship defense" could NOT win a Super Bowl, and a 32nd ranked defense could still win a Super Bowl.

There's a portion of the criticism of Dom Capers that is subjective and it doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. A lot is valid. A lot is also invalid. To each their own, I guess...

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Your defense does not need to be elite to win a SB; it just helps. Conversely, neither does your offense as proven by the Broncos. It also just helps.

Our offense was playing at a pretty elite level towards the end of the 2016 season, the defense was not even close. We got blown out by Atlanta. I did not say we need an elite defense to win a SB, we need a SB quality defense. The level of that quality, as you stated varies by how good your offense is. As long as we have AR, our offense will most likely be playing really well, but without a defense than can pick up the slack on days the offense struggles or when your defense folds up when facing a quality offense, it doesn't matter how good your offense is.

The Packers defense in 2014 specifically was the best defense not from Seattle down the stretch that year and would have won the Super Bowl if not for a botched onside kick recover, so the narrative that people are hanging onto here about how the "Packers haven't won a Super Bowl in 6 years because the defense hasn't been championship caliber, its Dom Capers fault" doesn't hold any water. Any Packers fan would tell you that 2014 defense 100% was a championship caliber defense.

First, beating Seattle didn't guarantee a SB win, but details.

The Packers defense also failed them in the final 4+ minutes and overtime of that game, they were not playing like one of the top 2 defenses in the league during that stretch.

There is a certain percent of fans on the "Fire Capers" bandwagon that fall into this sort of thing, and it's just plainly wrong, irrational, or both.
It's entirely possible that a "championship defense" could NOT win a Super Bowl, and a 32nd ranked defense could still win a Super Bowl.

There's a portion of the criticism of Dom Capers that is subjective and it doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. A lot is valid. A lot is also invalid. To each their own, I guess...

While I don't consider myself at the front of the "Fire Capers" bandwagon, I would say that I am the one holding a sign saying "Capers again? Tell me why" So please, tell me why he should be the Packers DC. I'm open to either side of the discussion at this point. I just don't read or see a lot positives about Dom and the job he is doing in Green Bay, his firing wouldn't come as a shock to me or probably most Packer fans.

 

[PikeBadger]

Your defense does not need to be elite to win a SB; it just helps. Conversely, neither does your offense as proven by the Broncos. It also just helps.

The Packers defense in 2014 specifically was the best defense not from Seattle down the stretch that year and would have won the Super Bowl if not for a botched onside kick recover, so the narrative that people are hanging onto here about how the "Packers haven't won a Super Bowl in 6 years because the defense hasn't been championship caliber, its Dom Capers fault" doesn't hold any water. Any Packers fan would tell you that 2014 defense 100% was a championship caliber defense.

If Bostick catches that ball and GB goes on to win a SB following the 2014 season, the defensive rankings wouldn't change at all to what they are now, but all the people who poke and prod at Capers' defenses "bad numbers" wouldn't have anything to say and this thread would have died on that February day in 2015.

There is a certain percent of fans on the "Fire Capers" bandwagon that fall into this sort of thing, and it's just plainly wrong, irrational, or both.
It's entirely possible that a "championship defense" could NOT win a Super Bowl, and a 32nd ranked defense could still win a Super Bowl.

There's a portion of the criticism of Dom Capers that is subjective and it doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. A lot is valid. A lot is also invalid. To each their own, I guess...

There are some posters here who will not hold players accountable but will instead blame staff and/or management for players brain farts. There are also some people who will find their one guy to hate. We've seen the Jarrett Bush, AJ Hawk, Brad Jones, Chad Kuhn types get beaten like a punching bag here as well. Very interesting to watch fans and see how they pick out their targets to spew venom on. Even when things are going well. In the end, we're all Packer fans that go about expressing our fanaticism in different ways.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There are some posters here who will not hold players accountable but will instead blame staff and/or management for players brain farts. There are also some people who will find their one guy to hate. We've seen the Jarrett Bush, AJ Hawk, Brad Jones, Chad Kuhn types get beaten like a punching bag here as well. Very interesting to watch fans and see how they pick out their targets to spew venom on. Even when things are going well. In the end, we're all Packer fans that go about expressing our fanaticism in different ways.

I think Jeff Janis would be offended for not being on that list, or would he?

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Your defense does not need to be elite to win a SB; it just helps. Conversely, neither does your offense as proven by the Broncos. It also just helps.

The Packers defense in 2014 specifically was the best defense not from Seattle down the stretch that year and would have won the Super Bowl if not for a botched onside kick recover, so the narrative that people are hanging onto here about how the "Packers haven't won a Super Bowl in 6 years because the defense hasn't been championship caliber, its Dom Capers fault" doesn't hold any water. Any Packers fan would tell you that 2014 defense 100% was a championship caliber defense.

If Bostick catches that ball and GB goes on to win a SB following the 2014 season, the defensive rankings wouldn't change at all to what they are now, but all the people who poke and prod at Capers' defenses "bad numbers" wouldn't have anything to say and this thread would have died on that February day in 2015.

There is a certain percent of fans on the "Fire Capers" bandwagon that fall into this sort of thing, and it's just plainly wrong, irrational, or both.
It's entirely possible that a "championship defense" could NOT win a Super Bowl, and a 32nd ranked defense could still win a Super Bowl.

There's a portion of the criticism of Dom Capers that is subjective and it doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. A lot is valid. A lot is also invalid. To each their own, I guess...

One of the biggest issues with Capers is how the defense performs in the playoffs. They could be 32nd all season long for all I care, as long as they show up in the playoffs. But from what we've seen, the opposition is either likely to score 40 or fail to make a stop on the final possession of a close game. Every single loss falls into one of these two categories.

 

[jakemillar]

First, beating Seattle didn't guarantee a SB win, but details.

The Packers defense also failed them in the final 4+ minutes and overtime of that game, they were not playing like one of the top 2 defenses in the league during that stretch.




While I don't consider myself at the front of the "Fire Capers" bandwagon, I would say that I am the one holding a sign saying "Capers again? Tell me why" So please, tell me why he should be the Packers DC. I'm open to either side of the discussion at this point. I just don't read or see a lot positives about Dom and the job he is doing in Green Bay, his firing wouldn't come as a shock to me or probably most Packer fans.

True, I don't have any proof that Green Bay would have beaten New England in the Super Bowl, but based on that defenses struggle with Seattle's (at the time) pedestrian receivers and Russell Wilson without being able to generate a running game, along with the Packers beating New England earlier that year without Sam Shields and AJ Hawk on D tells me they would have been the favourite.

It's also interesting how you blame Green Bay losing to Seattle in part to the defense that "failed them in the final 4+ minutes and overtime". If I'm not mistaken, that Packers defense had 4 interceptions, 5 sacks and held Marshawn Lynch to 58 yards rushing? Doesn't sound like a Dom Capers issue to me...

Dom Capers, if given enough talent on the defensive roster, is plenty capable of putting together a defense that can win a Super Bowl. And even when he does, that doesn't guarantee team success. I bring up the Bostick thing because that is a perfect example of why rankings sometimes mean so little in the grand scheme.

 

[rmontro]

Blame TT all you want and yes, he and his scouts have some blame in this, but come on, how long do you give a guy to prove he is a great DC?

They can fire Capers yesterday and I would have no problem with it. I say this more as food for thought:
Capers' defenses have been #1 in points one time, and #2 four times. They have also been #2 in yards twice, #3 once, and #4 twice. Would those stats make him a great defensive coordinator?

Problem is, his current run in Green Bay is six straight seasons without a defense in the top ten - neither in points nor yards. That is the longest run of his career. Might it have something to do with the talent Thompson has (or hasn't) given him?

One of the biggest issues with Capers is how the defense performs in the playoffs. They could be 32nd all season long for all I care, as long as they show up in the playoffs.

Some people have been saying you don't need an elite defense to win the Super Bowl. And while that is technically true, most teams that win the Super Bowl have at least a good defense. Even if the trend in recent years is more toward offense. Another phenomenon that has occurred is defenses that have peaked in the post season - defenses that did not rank well during the regular season but got hot at the right time.

 

[AmishMafia]

Some people have been saying you don't need an elite defense to win the Super Bowl.

You don't need a good QB (see Peyton Manning in 2015) to win a Superbowl either.

But having a great QB and/or defense sure makes it easier.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's also interesting how you blame Green Bay losing to Seattle in part to the defense that "failed them in the final 4+ minutes and overtime". If I'm not mistaken, that Packers defense had 4 interceptions, 5 sacks and held Marshawn Lynch to 58 yards rushing? Doesn't sound like a Dom Capers issue to me...

Not to rehash the NFCCG debacle again, but what I said was the Packers defense failed them miserably in the final 4+ minutes and overtime. The blunders on special teams, play calling, as well as the offense were equally up to the task of choking in one way or another that day. You said the defense was playing like the #2 defense in the NFL at the time, I disagree. That defense gave up over 400 yards that day, despite Seattle turning the ball over 5 times. [/QUOTE]

Dom Capers, if given enough talent on the defensive roster, is plenty capable of putting together a defense that can win a Super Bowl. And even when he does, that doesn't guarantee team success. I bring up the Bostick thing because that is a perfect example of why rankings sometimes mean so little in the grand scheme.

So Capers has to be given the talent? He can't coach a player to get better? This might be very true and part of the problem. Ready made players like Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers work excellent on a Dom Capers defense. High draft picks, not so often. Bringing up Bostic is just using another scapegoat, like injuries to try and explain or deflect from talking about the job Dom Capers has or hasn't done in the last 6 years. Again I ask, what has Dom Capers done in the last 6 years to justify him being the Packers DC?

One other interesting thing with Capers. The Packers had a top 5 defense the last year that they won the Super Bowl (2010). Yet the very next year, with virtually the same starters (less Nick Collins)....Capers defense was one of the worst in the NFL. How does that happen? Virtually the same pool of talent, yet completely different results. Was Nick Collins THAT special or did Dom lose some of his ability to coach and game plan effectively? An interesting theme developed and seems to continue in Green Bay that season, despite having a high power offense that led the team to a 15-1 record, they were sent home from the Playoffs in their first game, when the Giants picked the defense apart for a 37-20 win.

I am pumped for the 2017 season, but sadly, unless we see improvement from the defense, a Super Bowl would be pretty difficult to achieve.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There are also bad moments, but one thing to consider is that, the Packers played the best offense in the NFL, with the best WR, who also boast the (far and away) best offensive mind in all of football in Kyle Shanahan, in their stadium, twice last year. Truthfully, the Falcons won probably 5 of their games before they even kicked the ball off based entirely on Kyle Shanhan's play calls/play designs. He embarrassed every good D coordinator in the entire NFL on occasion last season. Those were IMO the Packers two worst games defensively all year. I think it's sometimes helpful to keep that in context a little bit.

The Packers defense played even worse in losses at Tennessee and Washington.

The Packers defense in 2014 specifically was the best defense not from Seattle down the stretch that year and would have won the Super Bowl if not for a botched onside kick recover, so the narrative that people are hanging onto here about how the "Packers haven't won a Super Bowl in 6 years because the defense hasn't been championship caliber, its Dom Capers fault" doesn't hold any water. Any Packers fan would tell you that 2014 defense 100% was a championship caliber defense.

If Bostick catches that ball and GB goes on to win a SB following the 2014 season, the defensive rankings wouldn't change at all to what they are now, but all the people who poke and prod at Capers' defenses "bad numbers" wouldn't have anything to say and this thread would have died on that February day in 2015.

The defense played at an elite level for 55 minutes during the 2014 NFCCG at Seattle but unfortunately wasn't able to get a stop when it mattered most, giving up 207 yards, three touchdowns and a two point conversion on only 17 plays within the last five minutes and overtime in that game.

If I'm not mistaken, that Packers defense had 4 interceptions, 5 sacks and held Marshawn Lynch to 58 yards rushing? Doesn't sound like a Dom Capers issue to me...

Lynch rushed for a total of 157 yards and had a reception for 26 setting up a touchdown in the 2014 NFCCG.

One other interesting thing with Capers. The Packers had a top 5 defense the last year that they won the Super Bowl (2010). Yet the very next year, with virtually the same starters (less Nick Collins)....Capers defense was one of the worst in the NFL. How does that happen? Virtually the same pool of talent, yet completely different results. Was Nick Collins THAT special or did Dom lose some of his ability to coach and game plan effectively?

I highly doubt Capers lost his ability to coach a defense capable of winning the Super Bowl within a few months. It's reasonable to think that losing Collins, who was the quarterback of the entire unit, resulted in the Packers struggling that year and mostly ever since.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I highly doubt Capers lost his ability to coach a defense capable of winning the Super Bowl within a few months. It's reasonable to think that losing Collins, who was the quarterback of the entire unit, resulted in the Packers struggling that year and mostly ever since.

From top 5 defense in 2010 to one of the worst in 2011, was the loss of Nick Collins fully the reason? I doubt it, that was a pretty large fall the defense took in a few months. Nick Collins was a big loss to the defense, similar to Sam Shields type loss. But Burnett and Woodson stepped up and covered the loss pretty well, the rest of the defense, not so well. If the loss of Collins WAS the reason for the defense's Jekyll and Hyde act from one season to the next, what does that say for Capers? Kind of takes the credit away from him for what the defense did in 2010 and places that credit largely on Collins?

IMO Capers ability to adapt and adjust is questionable and if you are correct about Collins, that just highlights it even further. How many times have we seen the defense playing somewhat well and then the opposing offense figures out a way to attack it and Capers has no answer? Like I said, some of the blame can be placed on TT and the Scouts for not delivering draft choices and FA's, but I just don't know how long you give a DC that has spent the last 6 seasons, fielding an inconsistently average to poor defense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

From top 5 defense in 2010 to one of the worst in 2011, was the loss of Nick Collins fully the reason? I doubt it, that was a pretty large fall the defense took in a few months. Nick Collins was a big loss to the defense, similar to Sam Shields type loss. But Burnett and Woodson stepped up and covered the loss pretty well, the rest of the defense, not so well. If the loss of Collins WAS the reason for the defense's Jekyll and Hyde act from one season to the next, what does that say for Capers? Kind of takes the credit away from him for what the defense did in 2010 and places that credit largely on Collins?

IMO Capers ability to adapt and adjust is questionable and if you are correct about Collins, that just highlights it even further. How many times have we seen the defense playing somewhat well and then the opposing offense figures out a way to attack it and Capers has no answer? Like I said, some of the blame can be placed on TT and the Scouts for not delivering draft choices and FA's, but I just don't know how long you give a DC that has spent the last 6 seasons, fielding an inconsistently average to poor defense.

Just to clarify, I would have been fine with the Packers replacing Capers after every single season since the playoff loss at San Francisco in 2012 as the results have been pore over the past few years.

I highly doubt he forgot how to coach a successful team though but it seems that with practices being limited under the new CBA introduced in 2011 the combination of Thompson's draft and develop philosophy and DC's complex scheme doesn't work for some reason anymore.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Just to clarify, I would have been fine with the Packers replacing Capers after every single season since the playoff loss at San Francisco in 2012 as the results have been pore over the past few years.

I highly doubt he forgot how to coach a successful team though but it seems that with practices being limited under the new CBA introduced in 2011 the combination of Thompson's draft and develop philosophy and DC's complex scheme doesn't work for some reason anymore.

"forgot" may have been the wrong word to use on my part, so my apologies......more like "has struggled". Something isn't and hasn't been working on that side of the ball on a consistent basis for too long. We can point fingers at TT, the Scouts, the CBA, but I keep going back to Capers and his coaching staff as being the weakest link. How often are we going to hear from fans "this has to be Capers last chance to get it done"?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

How often are we going to hear from fans "this has to be Capers last chance to get it done"?

It doesn't matter as long as McCarthy holds on to Capers though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It doesn't matter as long as McCarthy holds on to Capers though.

I was curious about that.

I know that technically, MM does the hiring and firing of coaches, but is he just the conduit or it is his and only his decision?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I was curious about that. Is it MM's job to retain/fire Dom or is that up to TT? Or is it a collaborative decision? One of those 2 guys, if not both, sure is holding their ground.

It seems that McCarthy is the one in charge of retaining or replacing the defensive coordinator. In my opinion MM holding on to Capers strongly indicates he mostly blames a lack of talent for the unit's shortcomings over the past six seasons.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It seems that McCarthy is the one in charge of retaining or replacing the defensive coordinator. In my opinion MM holding on to Capers strongly indicates he mostly blames a lack of talent for the unit's shortcomings over the past six seasons.

or injuries

I have to guess that MM and TT talk about hiring and firing of coaches. Ultimately MM's job, but I can't imagine that TT doesn't have some influence on the decisions.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

or injuries

I have to guess that MM and TT talk about hiring and firing of coaches. Ultimately MM's job, but I can't imagine that TT doesn't have some influence on the decisions.

I agree with the second paragraph of your post, you know how I feel about using injuries as an excuse though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Maybe once Dom Capers releases the pictures he has of MM and TT, we will fully understand his continued employment in Green Bay.

 

[rmontro]

It seems that McCarthy is the one in charge of retaining or replacing the defensive coordinator. In my opinion MM holding on to Capers strongly indicates he mostly blames a lack of talent for the unit's shortcomings over the past six seasons.

It can't be possible that McCarthy is satisfied with the defensive performance, can it?

 

[Reese2017]

2 man line is the problem scheme is no good theirs a reason no on uses that d

 

[Poppa San]

Maybe once Dom Capers releases the pictures he has of MM and TT, we will fully understand his continued employment in Green Bay.

I'm sure MM has said he could weather whatever pics DC has of him. Those of Mrs MM or the oldest of the offspring however...

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[Reese2017]

It can't be possible that McCarthy is satisfied with the defensive performance, can it?

So your telling me there drafting players with no talent what a joke that's why the SB is so far away it may never happen again,because they have zero talent onD ok!!!!!!!