The Browns (WR thread)

[brandon2348]

I can't see Gute drafting 2 WRs a year after drafting 3 WRs. I'm guessing because none of them had 1000 yds and 10 TDs we automatically "need a WR". I get it, at times they were lost, they had trouble getting open, made mistakes, etc....but that's what rookies do. We got great value out of the guys we got given their draft position. GMo was on for a career year before he got hurt. Had he stayed the course, we might have squeaked out a win or two, that Redskins game especially. No way I see us entering training camp with 9 or 10 WRs.

We drafted 3 on day 3 last year? Well what about drafting DB's with 1st and 2nd round picks every year with pathetic success and continuing to do that? To me that has been a much more INSANE APPROACH then taking a receiver early for once to add to our DAY 3 FLYERS.

I never said anything about drafting 2 WRs. Maybe they draft two if they take a chance on one on day 3. Maybe a guy like Keesean Johnson or something to that effect.

Myself and some others are advocating to draft a premiere one with one of our top 3 picks. The offense and LaFleur scheme needs it and Rodgers desperately deserves it. If the time is not now then it is never.

 

[Dantés]

I don't see it as needing a receiver so much as needing a skillset. With Cobb's departure, they lack catch and run ability. Not that Adams can't do that, but beyond him they have some size, some deep speed, some possession guys, but no one who is a playmaker with the ball in his hands. I would like to see that element added to the offense at some point.

 

[Fat Dogs]

Brandon is right about this. We need help at receiver.
We’ve lost 3 receivers (Jordy, Monty and Cobb) in essentially a calendar year. We drafted three 3rd day picks.
It’s likely 1 maybe 2 tops will be here in a couple years and it’s also possibly ZERO get to Jordy or Cobb peak status, that’s not being mean or imaginative or exaggerating, that’s just our reality.

I actually wish we didn’t need a WR. I really do, so we could pick at other needed positions. However, in this particular draft there will be several selections that GB will have to seriously consider drafting a WR if they are truly a top remaining prospect.
We need a Slot or another receiver that can compliment opposite Adams by 2020. Id prefer to get them in the system now so they have time to develop and get production by next season.

If we get extremely positive results from another receiver in the meantime? Work a trade and likely get that pick right back next year.

I’d like to see us consider picking the best value at either Slot or Perimeter by selection #3, then there’s lots of potential in a deep WR draft class to pick up another receiver who slides into day 3 who in many drafts would be top 100 or so.

I can see an option of keeping 7 on the 53.
Adams, GMO, (early WR draft pick), MVS..

Then four of these remaining WR’s to compete for three spots on the 53 and one PS. That said there’s an odd man out of the following..
EQ, 3rd day Draft pick, Kumerow, J’mon or Davis.

I to agree that we should draft one or two but wish we had better first round options. IMO A.J. Brown is the only bonified first rounder and taking him would mean that we would miss out on a top safety, or falling O or D-lineman. We will have plenty of options in 2nd but I would take any of Isabella, Arcega-Whiteside, McLaurin, and Deebo Samuel (guys that should be there in the 3rd and 4th.)

 

[brandon2348]

No one cringes at Campbell's speed. That aspect of his game is not the concern.

LEARN SOMETHING!

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[OldSchool101]

I can't see Gute drafting 2 WRs a year after drafting 3 WRs. I'm guessing because none of them had 1000 yds and 10 TDs we automatically "need a WR". I get it, at times they were lost, they had trouble getting open, made mistakes, etc....but that's what rookies do. We got great value out of the guys we got given their draft position. GMo was on for a career year before he got hurt. Had he stayed the course, we might have squeaked out a win or two, that Redskins game especially. No way I see us entering training camp with 9 or 10 WRs.

Actually we netted ZERO wide receivers.
Lost -Jordy, -Cobb and -Monty
Gained +MVS, +EQ and +Moore

We picked up three mid-late round guys.. while one or more “might” develop into a Jordy or Cobb type athlete, I think we’re being way too optimistic to assume all of them will.

IMO, Rodgers at minimum deserves to get at least one top 50 overall type receiver in 2019 to develop into the next version of Davante or Jordy by 2020/2021

 

[brandon2348]

Actually we netted ZERO wide receivers.
Lost -Jordy, -Cobb and -Monty
Gained +MVS, +EQ and +Moore

We picked up three mid-late round guys.. while one or more “might” develop into a Jordy or Cobb type athlete, I think we’re being way too optimistic to assume all of them will.

IMO, Rodgers at minimum deserves to get at least one top 50 overall type receiver in 2019 to develop into the next version of Davante or Jordy by 2020/2021

Your right in a sense we lost two 2nd round receivers and a 3rd rounder for a 4th, 5th and 7th rounder. To try and replace that talent level with such patchwork is ridiculous when you have Aaron Rodgrrs at QB.

And people wonder why the offense has regressed.

 

[OldSchool101]

Your right in a sense we lost two 2nd round receivers and a 3rd rounder for a 4th, 5th and 7th rounder. To try and replace that talent level with such patchwork is ridiculous when you have Aaron Rodgrrs at QB.

And people wonder why the offense has regressed.

Those guys were fine for depth. I get that. But picking at really any position past round 4 area speaks volumes.
Those are mainly somewhere from the “afterthought” range to “I can’t believe this guy is still around “amazed” type picks.
Hitting 3 of the same WR position that late said to me “we should’ve hit this position earlier but did not for whatever reason”, so now we’re grasping at straws in borderline desperation to cover the WR group.
2019 needs to be “I’m ready to do this the right way” and get some high probability talent.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

You guys overvalue too much a player's draft position with a player's level of talent. Yes there is a strong correlation generally speaking, but at the same time you have to look at the tape and testing as well.

For example, MVS was the 174th overall pick. Now remember, last year was a defensive draft, much like this one is, which pushed offensive talent way down the list. Being 174th doesn't mean MVS is just hot garbage, it just means that he was the 174th player picked. Keep in mind that you also have to take in each individual team's draft board. The Packers' board and the Chargers' board, will differ very differently in respect to the WR position. So, shuffle the draft order around, and you get an entirely different version of how the selections go down.

As for your analysis that Gute drafted 3 WRs late because he made a mistake, I would say that's a bit of a reach on your part. First off, there was only two WRs taken in the 3rd Round. That was Michael Gallup by the Cowboys, 9 picks before we drafted Oren Burks, and then Tre'Quan Smith to the Saints 3 picks after. The WR Class of 2018 was pretty much gone after the 2nd Round as 14 had already been taken, but if you look at the performance of said class only two really deserved to be taken that high, Ridley and Moore. Everyone else could have been a definite mid to late Day 2. That's why Gute looked like a genius getting the production he did out of the trio he drafted, because the return the rest of the league got wasn't as expected.

 

[Mondio]

I'm sure Gute, who appears to be one that never misses and opportunity or moment to do something and learn from it, just realized later in the draft, "oh ****, I better draft some WR's. I can't believe I didn't draft any WR's"

He's the guy that interviews for jobs he knows he won't get 20 years before he's ready, because he knows he'll learn something from that process that will get him there one day. He's not the guy that wakes up and realizes, "well crap, I better grab some of those today" LOL

 

[AmishMafia]

Those guys were fine for depth. I get that. But picking at really any position past round 4 area speaks volumes.
Those are mainly somewhere from the “afterthought” range to “I can’t believe this guy is still around “amazed” type picks.
Hitting 3 of the same WR position that late said to me “we should’ve hit this position earlier but did not for whatever reason”, so now we’re grasping at straws in borderline desperation to cover the WR group.
2019 needs to be “I’m ready to do this the right way” and get some high probability talent.

I think it was planned. This year is a very similar situation. A few 1st and 2nd rounders and that next tier has 20 or so players. There will be WRs going in the 3rd who are similar to players going early in the 5th. Why should the pack take one early when you can still get one nearly as good later? And look at who they took. Very physically gifted players with a higher bust potential. Maybe taking 3 sort of gave us a likely chance of at least one of them becoming a good player.

 

[brandon2348]

You guys overvalue too much a player's draft position with a player's level of talent. Yes there is a strong correlation generally speaking, but at the same time you have to look at the tape and testing as well.

For example, MVS was the 174th overall pick. Now remember, last year was a defensive draft, much like this one is, which pushed offensive talent way down the list. Being 174th doesn't mean MVS is just hot garbage, it just means that he was the 174th player picked. Keep in mind that you also have to take in each individual team's draft board. The Packers' board and the Chargers' board, will differ very differently in respect to the WR position. So, shuffle the draft order around, and you get an entirely different version of how the selections go down.

As for your analysis that Gute drafted 3 WRs late because he made a mistake, I would say that's a bit of a reach on your part. First off, there was only two WRs taken in the 3rd Round. That was Michael Gallup by the Cowboys, 9 picks before we drafted Oren Burks, and then Tre'Quan Smith to the Saints 3 picks after. The WR Class of 2018 was pretty much gone after the 2nd Round as 14 had already been taken, but if you look at the performance of said class only two really deserved to be taken that high, Ridley and Moore. Everyone else could have been a definite mid to late Day 2. That's why Gute looked like a genius getting the production he did out of the trio he drafted, because the return the rest of the league got wasn't as expected.

Your missing the point. Nobody is saying a late round pick can't pan out from time to time but to make it the staple of building a position group is a FAILURE. Especially when through attrition and age 3 premium picks have moved on and are no longer assets or supply any production.

We can play all these games and talk in circles but the Packers have failed to re-stock the weaponry on offense. This is a major problem when Aaron Rodgers is your QB and the team is supposed to be built around him. NOW WERE A LOSING PROGRAM and people still can't pull there head out of there *** to see what is actually going on.

 

[brandon2348]

I think it was planned. This year is a very similar situation. A few 1st and 2nd rounders and that next tier has 20 or so players. There will be WRs going in the 3rd who are similar to players going early in the 5th. Why should the pack take one early when you can still get one nearly as good later? .

They should take one SOONER THEN LATER because the LATER approach has failed miserably. The Packers need to attack the board to get a playmaker on offense rather then just waiting for someone to drop to them. THAT IS THE TED THOMPSON WAY OF THINKING THAT HAS FAILED US!

 

[brandon2348]

I'm sure Gute, who appears to be one that never misses and opportunity or moment to do something and learn from it, just realized later in the draft, "oh ****, I better draft some WR's. I can't believe I didn't draft any WR's"

He's the guy that interviews for jobs he knows he won't get 20 years before he's ready, because he knows he'll learn something from that process that will get him there one day. He's not the guy that wakes up and realizes, "well crap, I better grab some of those today" LOL

Well he obviously has shown that thinking with the EDGE GROUP with "Oh S*** we need some edge rushers" and go out and drop over 100 million dollars on a couple.

He drafted two corners in rounds 1 and 2 to go with that. I don't think he has shown anything that he won't attack at a position group based on need.

 

[brandon2348]

Those guys were fine for depth. I get that. But picking at really any position past round 4 area speaks volumes.
Those are mainly somewhere from the “afterthought” range to “I can’t believe this guy is still around “amazed” type picks.
Hitting 3 of the same WR position that late said to me “we should’ve hit this position earlier but did not for whatever reason”, so now we’re grasping at straws in borderline desperation to cover the WR group.
2019 needs to be “I’m ready to do this the right way” and get some high probability talent.

I agree, They need to get proactive and attack the board or go after a desired play maker that they feel will upgrade the offense.

Time for getting cute and playing Mickey Mouse Games are over. This notion that were smarter then everyone else when it comes to drafting receivers and players on offense as a whole has failed.

 

[Mondio]

Well he obviously has shown that thinking with the EDGE GROUP with "Oh S*** we need some edge rushers" and go out and drop over 100 million dollars on a couple.

He drafted two corners in rounds 1 and 2 to go with that. I don't think he has shown anything that he won't attack at a position group bases on need.

Sure he did, just woke up at the start of FA and said, I think I’m going to sign some guys. LOL

Identifying weakness and addressing it when you see options as part of a plan is far different than what was proposed. That Gute just realized later in the draft he needed some WRs and just started picking what he could find leftover.

When you look at the physical attributes of those kids, everyone has the potential to be very good and he got them let in the draft. I think it’s funny to think he didn’t have a plan, especially knowing how it all played out.

 

[brandon2348]

Sure he did, just woke up at the start of FA and said, I think I’m going to sign some guys. LOL

Identifying weakness and addressing it when you see options as part of a plan is far different than what was proposed. That Gute just realized later in the draft he needed some WRs and just started picking what he could find leftover.

When you look at the physical attributes of those kids, everyone has the potential to be very good and he got them let in the draft. I think it’s funny to think he didn’t have a plan, especially knowing how it all played out.

He thought he could get CUTE and get guys later that would be good. Thompson did the same thing at the RB position the previous year. The jury is still out but as I've posted the probabilities or chances is not in our favor.

I talk about this and people automatically think I am pooping all over our younger receivers and I am not. I am simply saying that to have the whole damn thing on them panning out is INSANE.

One injury to Adams and this entire show is completely OVER. We have been having this conversation for years now and it's time to go get a premiere receiver for Rodgers and the offense.

 

[Mondio]

We haven’t been having this conversation for years. Even last year, if a team is heading into the season with Adams, Cobb, Graham and Allison, they have plenty of pass catchers. Especially when Rodgers is your QB.

This year is the first in a long long time we haven’t had plenty of passing options to choose from heading into a season. But we’re not starting yet, I highly doubt the WR position sits unaddressed between now and then.

 

[GleefulGary]

He thought he could get CUTE and get guys later that would be good. Thompson did the same thing at the RB position the previous year. The jury is still out but as I've posted the probabilities or chances is not in our favor.

I talk about this and people automatically think I am pooping all over our younger receivers and I am not. I am simply saying that to have the whole damn thing on them panning out is INSANE.

One injury to Adams and this entire show is completely OVER. We have been having this conversation for years now and it's time to go get a premiere receiver for Rodgers and the offense.

Huh?

Aaron Jones is a very good RB and J Williams is a solid backup. How did that not work out for us?

 

[brandon2348]

Huh?

Aaron Jones is a very good RB and J Williams is a solid backup. How did that not work out for us?

I just can't believe people are still in denial regarding this. Williams is a JAG and Jones is a nice complimentary option that hasn't proven he can stay healthy(he has also already been suspended once).

It's VERY SIMPLE! No improvement on offensive talent and playmakers = NO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. You guys can continue to play your tricks on each other all you want as they don't work on anyone else.

 

[HardRightEdge]

What do you expect them to say? If they thought they sucked would they really show there hand prior to the draft? Sounds like normal press conference talk to me. I never read into that stuff too much.

I would be surprised if GB went receiver at 12(I wouldn't complain) but outside of that I expect one to be drafted at 30 or 44.

Yes, watch what they do, not what they say.

But until that moment comes, does what they say make sense? Given rookie receivers require a projection with indications some projection is warranted, while there are 4 of them in Gutekunst's first class, not Thompson holdovers, I find his comments credible. And he's expressed this outlook in so many different ways it is hard to ignore, with "big slot" and "this is not fantasy football" seemingly an attempt to manage expectations.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is no WR until day 3. And I would put the likelyhood of a TE over WR in day 1/day 2 higher than WR given Graham likely won't be around next season.

 

[brandon2348]

Joes

Yes, watch what they do, not what they say.

But until that moment comes, does what they say make sense? Given rookie receivers require a projection with indications some projection is warranted, while there are 4 of them in Gutekunst's first class, not Thompson holdovers, I find his comments credible. And he's expressed this outlook in so many different ways it is hard to ignore, with "big slot" and "this is not fantasy football" seemingly an attempt to manage expectations.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is no WR until day 3. And I would put the likelyhood of a TE over WR in day 1/day 2 higher than WR given Graham likely won't be around last season.

Well Graham leaves a hole next year. Cobb leaving left a hole this year. I expect it to be addressed and we will find out soon.

 

[OldSchool101]

When I say “desperation” I’m exaggerating in dramatic fashion to make a point. Don’t take that so literally.

But the point is our focus was clearly at other positions of need early where the rubber meets the road of optimal success rates. The picking 3 WRs was a move to make sure we got 1-2 that stick IMO. I like EQ and has him on my mock as a mid rounder so it’s not that I don’t like him specifically. MVS has been a nice surprise and Moore has been disappointing.

As far as talent vs draft order while it’s not an exact science I don’t think anyone in GB (or nearly any team) can claim to have it all figured out. There is a direct correlation between draft order and % success rate. You can give me a dozen examples of a 5th rounder that is successful and I’ll quadruple your stat with 2nd rounders that are successful. That’s not opinion either, thems facts

We can defend our position all we want but again, expecting those 3 particular prospects to match Jordy, Cobb and Monty production is truly far too optimistic.

Once again we’ve taken our eye off the ball. We have to reload on O now, we’ve given this D plenty to work with and other than maybe pick #12 and a few 3rd day picks it’s time to invest in this QB for once this decade. That means OL and WR, then TE or RB. That part you can take literal.

Eye on the ball. That goes for me too, I’ve began buying into D more and I swore last season I would keep focused after watching our Offense struggle

 

[GleefulGary]

I just can't believe people are still in denial regarding this. Williams is a JAG and Jones is a nice complimentary option that hasn't proven he can stay healthy(he has also already been suspended once).

It's VERY SIMPLE! No improvement on offensive talent and playmakers = NO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. You guys can continue to play your tricks on each other all you want as they don't work on anyone else.

Jones's biggest issue is health. But when healthy, he's a premier back.

And nobody is saying we shouldn't improve the offensive talent.

 

[brandon2348]

Jones's biggest issue is health. But when healthy, he's a premier back.

And nobody is saying we shouldn't improve the offensive talent.

Yes people are suggesting that were fine at receiver so that's simply not true. There are multiple posts suggesting our day 3 picks last year at receiver are sufficient. Not sure what your reading or SELECTIVELY READING. The whole receiver thing is like pulling teeth around here and I really don't understand with how the game has evolved and all the rule changes.

Jones is a nice RB but staying healthy is major concern. He has not proven he can carry a heavy work load or stay healthy so it is a bit far fetched to call him a PREMIER BACK IMO.

Ultimately I believe he needs to be on a 10-14 carry pitch count to be effective and gives him the best chance to stay healthy.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Joes


Well Graham leaves a hole next year. Cobb leaving left a hole this year. I expect it to be addressed and we will find out soon.

You aren't the first person to say this. Graham's contract is for 2 more years. So either you didn't know that or you are banking on the Packers cutting Graham after this season?

Depending on the Packers feelings about that very question, they will either go after a TE early (Hochenson/Fant) or hold off and possibly draft someone like Kahale Warring or maybe a mid round on Jace Sternberger if he is there. The Packers had both Warring and Sternberger in as one of the 30 man visits.