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Ted Thompson:year 2

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by net, Nov 20, 2006.

  1. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    This theory features no account for the fact that we were desperately thin in most positions. Look at the injury report for all teams at this point in the season. Guys go down. That's just how it is. We would have had nobody to come in and pick up where we were if we spent the cash on a few more free agents.

    The fact is playoff teams have depth and we had virtually none. Holding onto Wahle would have meant somebody else had to go. We didn't have the money straight up to hold him otherwise. Kampman, Green, etc. would have had to been signed or let go. We could have foregone the Woodson signing but to be a contender SOMEBODY had to replace Carroll.

    We than add a Palamalu and Lynch type we still have to address the CB and "D" line issues. What we had were absolutely not playoff caliber. By the time we sign the Wahl's and Kampman's and Lynch's and a big time WR the money is gone(if there would have been enough to start with).

    Now we do that and who do we have to back all these guys up? Where are the situational guys needed for certain schemes going to come from? Remember, we cut a lot of guys loose to get in a good cap position so we spend it on FA's and now there is a huge void in second line guys.

    I'm sorry but this team was far from what you are suggesting would have been all that was needed to contend. I won't even get into how far away from quality Special Teams we were when it comes to a playoff caliber team. We stunk there and adding three or four FA's ignore's this and too many other areas we were short in.
     
  2. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    Absolutely. What I meant was that your regular season record is more ( not completely) indicative of talent and equally your playoff record is more indicative of coaching. You dont see teams with 12-4 or better records with average talent. But you do see teams with average to above average talent sometimes go far in the playoffs ( NE a couple of years ago, Steelers of last year).
     
  3. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    Warhawk you're right, it isnt that simple. If only because if it were we'd all be GMs of NFL teams. What we're talking about is an approach. Quite obviously you like TT seem to think that a total rebuild is necessary. Why then arent you rebuilding a key position on the team - QB?

    That apart I do want to react to a point you made regarding Wahle. Keeping Wahle came down to a toss up between him or Franks. Isnt it ironical that TT chose Franks only to have him do what Wahle was supposed to do viz block? And the end result is an O line that while improving is still shaky, Wahle going to a Probowl with Carolina and Franks unhappy with his role.
     
  4. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    good post warhawk


    The way TT is running the ship is the best way to go. Its the best way to build up a solid base of talent. you can just try and plug holes with one great Free Agent. that leaves less money to fill the other holes. it just not very efficient. While it does keep you in the headlines and satisfy less informed fans, its really a horrible way to run a ship. its pluggin the hole when you got a 12 foot gash in your boat.

    Instead hes pullin the boat out of the water, fixing the hole and the gash by drafting quality talent, solid FA that come cheap and keeping the young talent like kampman.

    we will be ok...
     
  5. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    You are correct..IF...you constantly have drafts like he did this season. If you throw in a 2005 draft you fall way behind. Anybody wanna still tell me that was a great draft?
     
  6. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    No one can accurately say yes or no to that as sufficient time has not passed to make said accurate statement.

    It is looking, baaaaaaaad though :(
     
  7. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    I thought Poppinga was coming on but he's looked awful the past few weeks.
     
  8. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Your last part is exactly what happened to the Pack the last years under Sherman..St Louis game, Atlanta...
     
  9. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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  10. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    It is ironic that you mention this because we lost value in quality players from last years draft due to injury. Had Murphy and Underwood not gone down we would most certainly be seeing the fruits of that draft to a greater degree.

    It goes hand in hand with what I said. Guys get hurt. You have to have depth. You can't obtain that trading picks and signing high priced FA's. We did that in attempt to give Favre what he needed to win for four years.

    By the time TT got here that philosophy went beyond prudent judgement. Unless we signed three or four guys and NOBODY got hurt we could no longer expect to be in the hunt.

    Why? Because thru time the lack of draft picks that paid off and FA's that didn't work out zapped us of the very thing we had to have for that to even be an option. DEPTH.

    We sign Wahle and these three or four other guys mentioned in here and we have no one to fill their spots when they get hurt. And it is WHEN not IF because sooner or later the injury report looks like a plane crash.
     
  11. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Poppinga played great against the Vikings. He looked bad last week...
     
  12. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    The depth would come from the draft. If you were building around Favre you would:

    1. Free up cap space by getting rid of overpaid and underperforming players such as Sharper, Hunt you could argue Longwell as well.
    2. You would evaluate talent against your needs and realise that you needed Wahle more than Franks.
    3. You would sign a few key FAs in the positions of greatest need. The team being 2 million under cap in August 2005, 7.75 million under cap in August 2006.
    4. You would use your first round pick in 2005 on an immediate impact player and someone other than a QB.
    5. You would use your remaining picks on the best talent available and therein build depth.

    Or alternatively as you have said

    "We did that in attempt to give Favre what he needed to win for four years."

    TT would have realised that this approach wasnt working,

    "Because thru time the lack of draft picks that paid off and FA's that didn't work out zapped us of the very thing we had to have for that to even be an option. DEPTH."

    and therefore feel that the team could no longer continue to build around Favre and that the roster needed to be rebuilt through the draft. And those young players then needed to be nurtured and developed. You then have to ask why didnt TT see this through the whole way and have Rodgers start this season?

    For all the pullin the boat out of the water and fixing the hole and the gash, if the ship's Master isnt going to be around much longer, you better find someone who can sail her.
     
  13. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    The QB status for the Packers was not decided after that current year. It would have been foolish to pass on someone who was jus weeks before the draft projected to be the first overall player taken.

    After Sundays game and the antics of Rodgers I'm against the pick now, but I can't argue saying it was a foolish pick at the time because, well we had nothing promising we would have Brett for X amount of years. 2005 could have been his last. It would have been his last if Sherman would have been retained.
     
  14. Cdnfavrefan

    Cdnfavrefan Cheesehead

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    We've also seen like last year that the best team doesn't always win the SB but the team that's playing the best. Part of that is luck just peaking at the right time but there's also many other variables. Some of those years we played solid during the year but key injuries hurt us just before the playoffs. Also that year we rapped up the division so early I think also did us more harm then good.
     
  15. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    nicely done dxb!!!

    But as zero pointed out, at the time A-Rod was a good choice....Franks, well that again at the time seemed to be something we needed, but now looks very bad..

    hindsight is 20/20 as they say ( who are THEY anyways?)

    just remeber, a guy gets blocked for just one play ( no fumble happens vs the rams) and a play that should have been exacuted perfectly ( slant pass for int) and this team could be 6-4...Might fine line between 4-10 and 6-4

    Something similar could be said about the 2005 team as well..

    So as far as Teddy, I still think he needs AT THE VERY LEAST next years draft and F.A to see how far they have come
     
  16. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    That's a good point. When he chose Rodgers I was originally against it but didn't think it was that bad a choice. When 23 other teams pass up a supposedly top pick it makes you kind of wonder. Obviously, as this guy was falling in the draft teams were calling others to see if they wanted to move up and take him. Nobody did....and I've always wondered why.
     
  17. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    January of 2005 the 10-6 Packers lost in the first round of the playoffs and Ted Thompson was hired.

    The simple question is:
    Are the Packers better today than when Ted Thompson was hired?
     
  18. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    I believe the answer to this is absolutely yes. From the standpoint of improving the roster talent wise and having a future I see that now whereas before we were living and dying with the guys brought in from the year 2000 and before. The whole philosophy in the past revolved around the "now" while the future was being compromised.

    There is no sense in playing the blame game. The Hunt's, Johnsons, Carrolls and others just didn't produce what it was expected to accomplish.

    The fruits of this labor will not show in 2006 what it will in '07 and '08 and the financial state of the team allows for the influx of talent to continue. I believe if asked the higher ups in the Packer organization are very pleased with the current level of talent, the financial state of the team, and where it is headed.

    What TT has done is no mystery to those that hired him. He pulled no end runs here from what he said he would do if hired. The team was void of young, athletic players with future upside, and he went about fixing it.

    Remember, TT came in here with no guarantee from our Hall of Fame QB how much longer he would stick around. He could have easily never seen Brett run a play.

    So was it a bad move to go out and grab as many young and talented athletes as possible with a mix of veterans to lead them? Will the other 52 guys not have to be better in order for us to be competitive when Favre is gone?

    If these moves would have been delayed until Brett leaves than what? Would we not literally be starting from scratch? That to me would have been a recipe to end up like we did before Brett got here. A decade or more of futility.

    After about two or three years of that whose head would be asked to roll?
     
  19. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    trouble people just want a playoff team like there was b4..but who doesnt..

    We ALL WERE SPOILED for years, now we see how the niners, cowboys etc felt..

    I am by far a TT lover, I hate the fact Wahle was let go ( as we have heard they could have kept him) I was willing to give the Manuel thing a chance but he just doesnt seem to be able to cut it..

    Harlan hired this guy, he also hired Wolf, but he also hired Sherman..You tell me which one Ted reminds you more of..

    Some of us believe that the team was on a decline with Sherman with the roster that was in place at the end of 2004..

    Some of us believe that Minny, Chicago, and Detroit were so bad in the last years of Sherman that the Pack just had to be slightly above average to win the divsion..

    As much a speople like to say we could be 6-4 this year, those past Sherman teams could have been held out of the playoffs just as easy, if not for 2 lucky plays from other teams.

    Ted decided to build this team from the foundation on up no matter if Brett was here or not..That way when Brett is gone there will be a solid core of players here that should be able to compete..

    War made a good point..Say Brett does not come back next year and there WAS real no solid foundation..Then the process of rebuilding would HAVE to be done.

    But isnt it nice to know that there is a solid foundation being built..

    Many of you have gave kudos to the o-line, SOME defensive players , Jennings, and a few others..Those players hopefully will be the leaders when Brett is gone.
     
  20. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Block a D-end so no fumble happens, and a check off, time out or a perfectly exacuted 1st and goal pass, would you feel the same?

    They would be 6-4..


    Recall how everyone and their mother were so dang happy after the Minny win?? MM knows what he is doing, Teds plan is working etc etc...

    We HAVE ALL seen the team and what they are very capable of, unless we are watching two different teams..

    This team other then the N.E game has shown heart and passion at least in my eyes..Many times you see non wiunning teams just throwing in the towel each and every game, do you see that now?
     
  21. spardo62

    spardo62 Cheesehead

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    BETTER.

    Last year the bottom 1/2 of the roster did not belong in the NFL, and many of the starters were inadequate. Each week was a struggle and it appeared as if no progress was being made.

    This year, is shouuld be evident that the bottom half of the roster has been retooled with NFL prospects who are younger and have potential. With the starters, you can only point to 2 or 3 who do not deserve to be starting on most NFL teams. We have also seen many of the young players improve and develop through the first half of the year.

    Things are headed in the right direction, with the big key being QB. If Favre is back next year, this team should at least be a legitimate wildcard contender. If not, the progress may be less apparent depending on the progress of Rogers and who they get to be #2.
     
  22. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Careful with the Dungy comments, folks. The NFL thought police might slap your hands for opining on the sacred issue of minority coaches. You know, the same people who for years, and who still, put "Daunte Culpepper" and "elite QB" in the same sentence!!

    Have a great Thanksgiving everyone.

    While it may not be represented in wins and losses thus far, the team is in much better shape today than when TT took over. Examples follow:

    1. We now have a near elite group of LBs, with depth as well, where we had only one player in the form of Nick Barnett under MS.

    2. The O-line is young but maturing quickly. Wahle is grossly overpaid based strictly on performance, so that arguement is diminished greatly. Plus, for those who still crave Hutchinson and his $49 million contract, how about that Vikings run game? Excellent display of restraint by TT IMHO.

    3. Like the LBs, we now have a young and talented group of DL with substantial depth which allows for good rotation to keep players fresh.

    4. The young depth has allowed for improved special teams play. Yes, they have a ways to go, but are much better than in years past.

    5. Our kicker is a wash with Longwell thus far, and our punter clearly has out-performed previous Sherman pet....B.J. Sander.

    6. Javon Walker is a damn near irreplaceable talent, but I like everything that Jennings brings to the game. Look at the stats between the two and just ptroject what Greg Jennings will be doing in the coming years. Whioe young, the WR's have some upside...and will be added to via draft and/or FA in the near future.

    7. TT rid the team of previous Sherman pet and locker room cancer C. Hunt. This move ALONE tells me that TT has the team heading in the right direction. B.S. WILL NOT be tolerated in GB. You too, Javon.

    8. Last, but certainly not least, TT has a skill for drafting players who seem to project quickly to the NFL and put up good performances early and consistently in their early careers. Hawk, Collins (coaching is killing the secondary), Jennings, College, Spitz, Moll, among others.

    Unlike the previous regime who suffered from "Denny Green Syndrome" (The need to draft sleepers/supreme athletes with little football experience but huge measurables in order to validate their excellence as GM when the lump O' coal becomes a diamond under their tuteledge) TT drafts football players.

    Yes, the Packers are a better team today than pre-TT, and the young talent could be a monster in the coming years with more good drafts and appropriate FA acquisitions.
     
  23. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    When I first read your post I thought perhaps things were not as bad they seem but the more I read it, the more I felt that I think you've made some generalisations that dont stand up to scrutiny.


    "1. We now have a near elite group of LBs, with depth as well, where we had only one player in the form of Nick Barnett under MS."

    I dont think one can yet include Poppinga in the calibre of near elite. Yes we now have 2 near elite LBs as opposed to 1 under MS.

    "2. The O-line is young but maturing quickly. Wahle is grossly overpaid based strictly on performance, so that arguement is diminished greatly. Plus, for those who still crave Hutchinson and his $49 million contract, how about that Vikings run game? Excellent display of restraint by TT IMHO."

    True for Hutchinson, however if Wahle wasnt performing he wouldnt have gone to the Pro Bowl last year.

    "3. Like the LBs, we now have a young and talented group of DL with substantial depth which allows for good rotation to keep players fresh."

    So far so good. As the Jenkins, Coles, Williams develop the more it will become a challenge to retain all of them as they hit FA.

    "4. The young depth has allowed for improved special teams play. Yes, they have a ways to go, but are much better than in years past."

    The stats dont bear you out. here's an analysis over the last 4 years on 4 parameters and the Packers standing in the league:

    Year 03 04 05 05
    Punt returns 22 22 13 25
    KO returns 05 15 32 28
    Punt defense 19 20 09 25
    KO defense 11 10 12 13

    "5. Our kicker is a wash with Longwell thus far, and our punter clearly has out-performed previous Sherman pet....B.J. Sander."

    As long as you dont consider net yardage, where our punter is ranked 22nd.

    "7. TT rid the team of previous Sherman pet and locker room cancer C. Hunt. This move ALONE tells me that TT has the team heading in the right direction. B.S. WILL NOT be tolerated in GB. You too, Javon."

    Where does Manuel fit in against that logic?

    "8. Last, but certainly not least, TT has a skill for drafting players who seem to project quickly to the NFL and put up good performances early and consistently in their early careers. Hawk, Collins (coaching is killing the secondary), Jennings, College, Spitz, Moll, among others."

    The 2005 draft has produced 2 starters - Collins and Poppinga, performance of both has been average this year. Of the 11 players drafted, 4 are no longer with the team. Its too early to judge the 2006 draft but yes, Hawk and Jennings have been outstanding.

    "Careful with the Dungy comments, folks. The NFL thought police might slap your hands for opining on the sacred issue of minority coaches. You know, the same people who for years, and who still, put "Daunte Culpepper" and "elite QB" in the same sentence!!"

    I think race has no place in sport and the less reference we make to it, the better!
     
  24. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Poppinga is on the ups, and I think coaching has more to do with the secondary's woes than the players themselves. Net yardage is one indicator, but hang time is much better, allowing for coverage to get into place to reduce the huge, backbreaking plays that happened so frequently in the past. Improvement still needed, but I see guys within a few yards of the return man this year.

    Underwood is injured and was by all accounts poised to compete for a starting spot. We can not forget that he is still part of the team.

    Being concerned about retaining good players is a good position to be in.

    Again, have a great Thanksgiving, all!
     
  25. chibiabos

    chibiabos Cheesehead

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    :beersign: Rome twern't built in a day and only Lombardi and Lambeau turned out quick winners. Whether the Pack will acknowledge it or not they are re-building the team. With the next draft they will have to find some decent TE's, DB's and possibly a QB. The year following should be the prime indicator of whether or not TT and MM have done the jobs they were hired to do. For the time being I'm witholdiing my judgement. As a side note, replacing B. Favre will be a very difficult chore but, if you build a good offensive unit the QB can be slightly above average and still run a decent offense.
     

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