Taysom Hill

[Dantés]

Again, some of you are reading way too much into what Taysom Hill has said. He should tell teams he’s a starting quarterback. Why? Because that’s where the money is at. If Nick Foles can fetch $50 million guaranteed from the Jacksonville Jaguars, then I don’t blame Hill for trying to do the same. Will he get that much? I highly doubt it.

Are you 100% sure he isn't a starter? Aaron Rodgers didn't start until his 4th year in the league. Both Rodgers and Hill found themselves stuck behind HOF QB's. Hill eventually is going to get an opportunity to try and prove that he is a starter. Where and when that happens is anyone's guess. Until then, he will make quite a bit of money as one of the best utility players in the league. If he can adequately backup a QB, even a bigger bonus for a team. If he can' become a Franchise QB, like he thinks he can, someone gets a bargain.

The Packers didn't see enough value in Hill 3 1/2 years ago to keep him, the Saints have uncovered his value, where that goes from here, nobody is quite sure, but I wouldn't bet against Hill.

You aren't privy to Hill's internal thought process anymore than anyone else is. And in respect, you are the one "reading into" his comments. He said, definitively, that he thinks he's a franchise QB. He also said that if his current team doesn't agree, he will just have to go elsewhere. So when you say that he's just posturing, and that he really knows that that's not realistic, you are reading into his comments. Doesn't make you wrong, but it does mean that you have to make a lot more assumptions.

It's akin to the Bridgewater situation. On the one hand, I and others of my opinion have said that starting Bridgewater means that they preferred Bridgewater. Seems pretty logical. On the other hand, some are "reading into" the situation and saying they were just saving face due to the contract. I can't prove them wrong, but then the burden of proof isn't really on me there.

Almost nothing in sports or the NFL is ever 100% sure. I am not technically 100% sure that MVS can't be a legit #1 WR. But I think I have a pretty darn good idea. By that same token, I am pretty darn sure that Taysom Hill is not a good starting QB in this league unless a team sells out to install what would essentially amount to his offense from BYU.

For evidence, I would point out that he came out of college as an impressive athlete without experience or aptitude for pro style offense; he went undrafted; he's over-aged to be trying to develop; he's injury prone, which is problematic because any effective offense that he operates will involve a lot of QB run game; and since he entered the league, he's been exclusively a trick play artist at this level.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

He's a good gadget player. He hasn't shown anything, in college, or the NFL, that would indicate he can be a starting NFL QB. I would like you to point to examples, on the field, that show that he can be a starting QB. Thanks!

LOL....First, anyone can be named a starting QB. What is more important, is how good of a starting QB they would be. Second, I never said Hill is going to be a franchise QB. I said we don't know what he will be. I think the Saints probably have the clearest understanding of who he is and can be. So we probably will find out shortly just what that is.

For the last time, I think you and others are confusing what Hill himself, Peyton and the media have said, as being facts, as well as being my opinion. Hill is posturing, I don't blame him. Peyton is doing what most coaches do, praising his player. The media is doing just what the media does, putting its own spin on things to make it interesting.

Right now, Hill hasn't proven he is a starting QB, yet alone a franchise QB, he just is saying it. Nor will he probably get paid as one in the coming month, but he will get paid as a guy who can be a weapon for the right team and he will get a chance to compete for the starting QB job eventually.

One other thought, when will people stop bringing up this "injury history" he had in college and trying to spin it into a negative light? Has he been injured in the NFL yet? For a guy that takes the pounding that he does on special teams and offense, I would let that part of your negativism towards him go, it isn't changing my mind. As a matter of fact, when you see the list of injuries he battled through and kept playing the sport, its a pretty positive quality about the guy if you ask me.

 

[GleefulGary]

LOL....First, anyone can be named a starting QB. What is more important, is how good of a starting QB they would be. Second, I never said Hill is going to be a franchise QB. I said we don't know what he will be. I think the Saints probably have the clearest understanding of who he is and can be. So we probably will find out shortly just what that is.

For the last time, I think you and others are confusing what Hill himself, Peyton and the media have said, as being facts, as well as being my opinion. Hill is posturing, I don't blame him. Peyton is doing what most coaches do, praising his player. The media is doing just what the media does, putting its own spin on things to make it interesting.

Right now, Hill hasn't proven he is a starting QB, yet alone a franchise QB, he just is saying it. Nor will he probably get paid as one in the coming month, but he will get paid as a guy who can be a weapon for the right team and he will get a chance to compete for the starting QB job eventually.

One other thought, when will people stop bringing up this "injury history" he had in college and trying to spin it into a negative light? Has he been injured in the NFL yet? For a guy that takes the pounding that he does on special teams and offense, I would let that part of your negativism towards him go, it isn't changing my mind. As a matter of fact, when you see the list of injuries he battled through and kept playing the sport, its a pretty positive quality about the guy if you ask me.

To start...what? Anyone can be named a starting QB? I honestly don't even get what you're saying.

To continue, I never said anything about a franchise QB in my post. Not sure why you're bringing that up either.

If you would like to post your opinion, that would be great. I'd like to avoid confusion. As far as I can tell, it sounds like you think he's a player capable of being a starting QB, but even if he isn't, is worth a 2nd round pick. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally, his injury history is important because he's shown that when he's a full time player, he has not been able to stay healthy. One more time, he has shown, multiple times, that when he's a full time player, he cannot stay healthy. A talented player that can't stay healthy loses some value. Nick Perry being a familiar example. Now offense and ST's combined, Hill played 528 snaps. The Saints ran over 1000 snaps on offense. Pretty clear he's not a full time player.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

To start...what? Anyone can be named a starting QB? I honestly don't even get what you're saying.

To continue, I never said anything about a franchise QB in my post. Not sure why you're bringing that up either.

If you would like to post your opinion, that would be great. I'd like to avoid confusion. As far as I can tell, it sounds like you think he's a player capable of being a starting QB, but even if he isn't, is worth a 2nd round pick. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally, his injury history is important because he's shown that when he's a full time player, he has not been able to stay healthy. One more time, he has shown, multiple times, that when he's a full time player, he cannot stay healthy. A talented player that can't stay healthy loses some value. Nick Perry being a familiar example. Now offense and ST's combined, Hill played 528 snaps. The Saints ran over 1000 snaps on offense. Pretty clear he's not a full time player.

I will let you do the work, I have answered all of those questions in previous posts with back and forths between at least 3 people.

If you think Hill's 528 snaps doesn't qualify him as a full time player, especially when you factor in the type of snaps that he is taking, you might want to look at snaps of other players around the league and what each of those snaps entails. Further, you obviously haven't watched much of Hill, most of those snaps involve him taking a pounding and he gets right up after. But yes, keep calling him a part time player that has an injury history, if you think it makes you look smart.

 

[Dantés]

Why is it irrelevant to talk about the injury history of a guy who missed 27 games in college?

 

[Dantés]

I will let you do the work, I have answered all of those questions in previous posts with back and forths between at least 3 people.

If you think Hill's 528 snaps doesn't qualify him as a full time player, especially when you factor in the type of snaps that he is taking, you might want to look at snaps of other players around the league and what each of those snaps entails. Further, you obviously haven't watched much of Hill, most of those snaps involve him taking a pounding and he gets right up after. But yes, keep calling him a part time player that has an injury history, if you think it makes you look smart.

So Marcedes Lewis is a full time player? Jamaal Williams too? Kyler Fackrell? Chandon Sullivan?

All full time players and not part timers in your book?

 

[GleefulGary]

I will let you do the work, I have answered all of those questions in previous posts with back and forths between at least 3 people.

If you think Hill's 528 snaps doesn't qualify him as a full time player, especially when you factor in the type of snaps that he is taking, you might want to look at snaps of other players around the league and what each of those snaps entails. Further, you obviously haven't watched much of Hill, most of those snaps involve him taking a pounding and he gets right up after. But yes, keep calling him a part time player that has an injury history, if you think it makes you look smart.

Okay? I'm just asking you to clarify your position. I'm clearly confused as to what it is, just trying to clear it up. Sorry to inconvenience you.

According to pro football reference, Hill played 62% of ST plays, and 22% of offensive plays.

By my math he played 528 of a possible 1,524 snaps. That's a part time player by any reasonable standard, imo.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why is it irrelevant to talk about the injury history of a guy who missed 27 games in college?

How many times has he been injured in the NFL since signing in 2017? How many games has he missed in the NFL? How many injuries has Roethlisberger had? Adrian Peterson, Troy Polamalu, Matthew Stafford, Matt Schaub and on and on. It's part of the game. I would understand using it as a negative if he was constantly battling injuries since he became a Pro, but he hasn't been. He had some bad luck at BYU, but he healed and kept playing. Further, as I just said, if you watch the guy play, he takes some big hits and pops right back up.

You can make injuries "relevant" by mentioning it in regards to any NFL player. Should we call Aaron Rodgers injury prone? Davante Adams?

 

[GleefulGary]

How many times has he been injured in the NFL since signing in 2017? How many games has he missed in the NFL? How many injuries has Roethlisberger had? Adrian Peterson, Troy Polamalu, Matthew Stafford, Matt Schaub and on and on. It's part of the game. I would understand using it as a negative if he was constantly battling injuries since he became a Pro, but he hasn't been. He had some bad luck at BYU, but he healed and kept playing. Further, as I just said, if you watch the guy play, he takes some big hits and pops right back up.

You can make injuries "relevant" by mentioning it in regards to any NFL player. Should we call Aaron Rodgers injury prone? Davante Adams?

Some bad luck at BYU?!

And you think calling him injury prone is putting a spin on it?! Lmao.

He played a full season in college 2/5 years. Only twice, did he play more than half a season! 3 years where he had a year ending injury. That's more than just bad luck. And actually, according to the Saints bio and a quote from Hill, he had 4 season ending injuries. 4! In 5 years! But it was just bad luck. Definitely no injury history there.

 

[Dantés]

How many times has he been injured in the NFL since signing in 2017? How many games has he missed in the NFL? How many injuries has Roethlisberger had? Adrian Peterson, Troy Polamalu, Matthew Stafford, Matt Schaub and on and on. It's part of the game. I would understand using it as a negative if he was constantly battling injuries since he became a Pro, but he hasn't been. He had some bad luck at BYU, but he healed and kept playing. Further, as I just said, if you watch the guy play, he takes some big hits and pops right back up.

You can make injuries "relevant" by mentioning it in regards to any NFL player. Should we call Aaron Rodgers injury prone? Davante Adams?

He's average 375 snaps since entering the league. A snap count that low will obviously insulate him, especially when the majority of them are on special teams, where no one is trying to tackle him.

He established over five years in college that he is injury prone. When he was a full time QB, he couldn't stay on the field.

 

[GleefulGary]

He's average 375 snaps since entering the league. A snap count that low will obviously insulate him, especially when the majority of them are on special teams, where no one is trying to tackle him.

He established over five years in college that he is injury prone. When he was a full time QB, he couldn't stay on the field.

No way.

Having one completely healthy year out of 5 was just bad luck.

 

[Dantés]

If it helps, you could take the injury thing 100% out of the equation and it would not change my opinion.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

According to pro football reference, Hill played 62% of ST plays, and 22% of offensive plays.

By my math he played 528 of a possible 1,524 snaps. That's a part time player by any reasonable standard, imo.

First of all his 62% of snaps on ST was the 3rd most on his team. If you don't call that playing full time special teams, cant help you there.

but Ahhh...I see. With your new reasonable special math, if he doesn't play a large % of both Offensive and Special Teams snaps (1524) he can't be considered anything but a part time player. With your Math, are Teddy Gin and Kamara just a part timers for the Saints? Same with the Packers Aaron Jones and Davante Adams? What is your special cutoff number that tells you when you can declare a player a starter? When do you decide to include or not include special team snaps into your calculations. Had Hill lined up at Safety once, you would now add those 1060 Saints defensive snaps into your formula?

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think you're missing the point.

The point is not that he has "very little value" simply because he's not a starting QB.

The point is that he has already stated that he thinks he's a starting QB. His perceived value is going to dramatically outpace his actual value.

He's a restricted FA. So you don't just trade a 2nd for him, you tender him a contract offer and if he takes it, and the Saints don't match, then you give up the 2nd.

So if you value his gadget skill set at, say, a generous 5M/season and make that offer for him, is he really going to sign it? If he really thinks he's a quarterback, he's going to decline, sign his tender sheet, and try to find QB money as a UFA in 2021.

How high are you willing to go to sign him? 10M/season plus a 2nd?

He is a nice wrinkle in the Saints offense. He's an impressive athlete. But he's not worth all that.

Thanks Dantes. Good summary. IMO, he hasn’t proved he’s a legit backup QB yet, and the Saints seemed to agree. As for the Packers and Hill...... well they had their chance to keep him. The Packers have much bigger needs than to trade a #62 pick for a maybe back up.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

He's average 375 snaps since entering the league.

Nice....lets add in the year that he barely played, it makes your math look better. LOL

 

[GleefulGary]

First of all his 62% of snaps on ST was the 3rd most on his team. If you don't call that playing full time special teams, cant help you there.

but Ahhh...I see. With your new reasonable special math, if he doesn't play a large % of both Offensive and Special Teams snaps (1524) he can't be considered anything but a part time player. With your Math, are Teddy Gin and Kamara just a part timers for the Saints? Same with the Packers Aaron Jones and Davante Adams? What is your special cutoff number that tells you when you can declare a player a starter? When do you decide to include or not include special team snaps into your calculations. Had Hill lined up at Safety once, you would now add those 1060 Saints defensive snaps into your formula?

Yeah, you're not understanding.

There's nobody that considers him a full time player. Unless you also consider Marcedes Lewis, Jamaal Williams, and Chandon Sullivan full time players.

 

[Dantés]

Nice....lets add in the year that he barely played, it makes your math look better. LOL

Not hardly playing that year obviously helped lower his injury risk. So it's relevant. You are the one that pointed out that he hasn't missed games since entering the league in 2017. Why is it not fair to point out that he only played 72 snaps in one of those season?

Do you want to just say 1125 snaps over three seasons? Does that help you not to get upset?

 

[Dantés]

First of all his 62% of snaps on ST was the 3rd most on his team. If you don't call that playing full time special teams, cant help you there.

but Ahhh...I see. With your new reasonable special math, if he doesn't play a large % of both Offensive and Special Teams snaps (1524) he can't be considered anything but a part time player. With your Math, are Teddy Gin and Kamara just a part timers for the Saints? Same with the Packers Aaron Jones and Davante Adams? What is your special cutoff number that tells you when you can declare a player a starter? When do you decide to include or not include special team snaps into your calculations. Had Hill lined up at Safety once, you would now add those 1060 Saints defensive snaps into your formula?

If you're calling him a "full time" player as a special teamer, that would be fine... for whatever that's worth.

But that's not what you were doing. You cited his 528 total snaps, offense and ST, and said "that qualifies him as a full time player." You advised us to look around the league and see the truth of what you're saying.

The truth is that basically anywhere you find a 500-600 snap player, offense/defense and ST combined, you're talking about a part time role player and NOT a full time player.

You're now moving the goal posts to this "full timer special teamer" thing.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yeah, you're not understanding.

There's nobody that considers him a full time player. Unless you also consider Marcedes Lewis, Jamaal Williams, and Chandon Sullivan full time players.

Right. Should we call Mason Crosby and JK Scott part time players or backups, since their snap counts are lower than almost everyone's? I see what you are trying to do, but you are not taking into account what the Saints are asking Hill to do as a 2 way player, nor are you valuing what he actually does when on the field during those snaps. If labels help you define things for yourself, go for it...call Hill a part time swiss army knife, won't sway my opinion of his value to a team.

I don't really care if any of us ever agree on any of it, I get your points, I just don't happen to fully agree on many of them or the math you use for your logic. I guess we will all find out in a month where Taysom Hill is in the eyes of the Saints and other teams.

 

[GleefulGary]

Right. Should we call Mason Crosby and JK Scott part time players or backups, since their snap counts are lower than almost everyone's? I see what you are trying to do, but you are not taking into account what the Saints are asking Hill to do as a 2 way player, nor are you valuing what he actually does when on the field during those snaps. If labels help you define things for yourself, go for it...call Hill a part time swiss army knife, won't sway my opinion of his value to a team.

I don't really care if any of us ever agree on any of it, I get your points, I just don't happen to fully agree on many of them or the math you use for your logic. I guess we will all find out in a month where Taysom Hill is in the eyes of the Saints and other teams.

They're full time ST players. Just like Taysom Hill is a full time ST players. I struggle with kickers from that part. They're clearly different from everybody else. Hard to compare to other players. That's why I liked the Marcedes Lewis, Jamaal Williams, Chandon Sullivan comparisons. They equate more to our discussion. Anyways, Hill is clearly a part time offensive gadget player. Distinctions, labels, are important.

Speaking of what you think his value is, would you please clarify what you think it is? I've asked before, but I really think it would help clear things up. Thanks!

 

[Dantés]

Right. Should we call Mason Crosby and JK Scott part time players or backups, since their snap counts are lower than almost everyone's? I see what you are trying to do, but you are not taking into account what the Saints are asking Hill to do as a 2 way player, nor are you valuing what he actually does when on the field during those snaps. If labels help you define things for yourself, go for it...call Hill a part time swiss army knife, won't sway my opinion of his value to a team.

I don't really care if any of us ever agree on any of it, I get your points, I just don't happen to fully agree on many of them or the math you use for your logic. I guess we will all find out in a month where Taysom Hill is in the eyes of the Saints and other teams.

So you're saying it's fair to call him (or Lewis, or Williams, or Sullivan, or...) a full time player because starting punters and kickers don't play a lot of snaps?

 

[Dantés]

Let's simplify this.

Virtually everyone agrees that Hill has some value as an offensive weapon in the right circumstances.

There is disagreement about:

• How much that role is worth.
• The likelihood that he could become a real quarterback.
• The sense in trading a 2nd round pick for the rights to sign him to a contract.
• What he means by his own comments.
• What Payton means by his comments.

In answer to those three points, I would say:

• That role is worth about 5M/season to a team that knows how to use him and has the cap flexibility. 5M is backup/role player money in this league, and I think Hill is a role player.
• Him ever becoming a good starting QB in a pro offense is highly improbable.
• It would make no sense for a team to trade a 2nd round pick for him, because I don't think he's worth 5M plus a 2nd, and on top of that, he seems determined to get paid like a QB in the future. I highly doubt he would sign an offer sheet for a multi-year deal at the price that I think he's worth.
• I think he's serious when he says he views himself as a starting QB and will determine to get paid as such. This does not mean he will be able to just name his price, but all it would take is one team and you're out-priced. And regardless, it means that he will almost certainly try to find his way to FA, where there's a good chance that he's lost.
• I think Payton is attempting to gin up trade interest in order to land a 2nd round pick for him (this is admittedly reading into his comments).

 

[Sky King]

Let's simplify this.

Virtually everyone agrees that Hill has some value as an offensive weapon in the right circumstances.

There is disagreement about:

• How much that role is worth.
• The likelihood that he could become a real quarterback.
• The sense in trading a 2nd round pick for the rights to sign him to a contract.
• What he means by his own comments.
• What Payton means by his comments.

In answer to those three points, I would say:

• That role is worth about 5M/season to a team that knows how to use him and has the cap flexibility. 5M is backup/role player money in this league, and I think Hill is a role player.
• Him ever becoming a good starting QB in a pro offense is highly improbable.
• It would make no sense for a team to trade a 2nd round pick for him, because I don't think he's worth 5M plus a 2nd, and on top of that, he seems determined to get paid like a QB in the future. I highly doubt he would sign an offer sheet for a multi-year deal at the price that I think he's worth.
• I think he's serious when he says he views himself as a starting QB and will determine to get paid as such. This does not mean he will be able to just name his price, but all it would take is one team and you're out-priced. And regardless, it means that he will almost certainly try to find his way to FA, where there's a good chance that he's lost.
• I think Payton is attempting to gin up trade interest in order to land a 2nd round pick for him (this is admittedly reading into his comments).

Good assessment. In addition, people in all professions will try to get a better deal for themselves all the time. They may not be the best at what they do but they could still represent one of the better options their organization has available to them at any particular moment in time. Hill is trying to leverage a better deal for himself under the current circumstances that exist in N.O. More power to him if he can pull it off successfully.

 

[gopkrs]

The Saints put a first round tender on Hill. So they will probably be paying him about 4.66 million. Unless, of course someone offers him more. In which case the Saints could match.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The Saints put a first round tender on Hill. So they will probably be paying him about 4.66 million. Unless, of course someone offers him more. In which case the Saints could match.

*Just grins like a Cheshire cat*

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