Rebuild a new LaFleur offense or get what Pettine needs on defense?

[brandon2348]

The question isn't "can the offense be better", of course it can! What does elite talent on Mahomes team have anything to do with my point? Tell me another position on defense that has as much impact as a great QB has on an offense, it doesn't exist. Yes, obviously having elite talent on offense is WONDERFUL. However, putting together a decent defense when said defense lacks any pass rush threat or elite playmaker (I like Kenny Clark, he's very good, but not in the Aaron Donald/Geno Atkins style of pass rush threat) is pretty much impossible. Right now, as is, the Packers can rely on the offense being top-10 with the current personnel. Asking the defense, as is, to be top-10 is basically crossing your fingers and hoping that a bunch of guys suddenly make huge leaps.

With the state of the OL(especially on the right side) and a lack of a slot receiver this offense is one injury away from not being close to top 10.

Not only do we lack enough premier playmakers on offense but the depth is horrid and not built currently for a 16 game season.

 

[gopkrs]

I hope I did this right. I know that you have always said how good Campen was. Don't know what went down but our new staff exchanged him for an untested young guy. And Campen made a lateral move I believe. So we should be able to see what kind of results both of these coaches make in the immediate future. My money is on our new guy.
This statement made in reply to Wimm.

 

[PackAttack12]

I think this year proved the Packers need more help at coach, and they got it.

You're not going to find me disagreeing with you on that point. But the Packers still need major help on the right side of the offensive line, and they need another difference making pass catcher. Ideally maybe even another back, but that's far down the list of priorities from my perspective. Also, we currently have a depth problem. Hopefully MVS and EQ emerge to help with that.

To your point, the coaching especially from a schematic standpoint was in desperate need of overhaul. And help from the new scheme will make a big difference, but we also need more talent. I'm tired of having to rely on Rodgers to wear the big 'S' on his chest. Time to give him some help. That started with the LaFleur hire, need to finish it off with giving him more to work with.

Not referring to you on this, but I don't think many people truly understand how much easier Rodgers' job is going to be if all of this comes to fruition.

 

[mradtke66]

Just to clarify, I said he was a #3 on pretty much every team in the league. ....

I said he was #4 passing option, as Adams, Cobb, Graham were probably higher focal points in the offense to start the year.

You're not the guy(s) I'm questioning Mondio.

 

[mradtke66]

I'm surprised Allison put up numbers that good last season. I won't feel comfortable about him being anything more than the #4 option moving forward though.

But why? He looked pretty good last year. What if he puts up those numbers again? There's certainly risk and projection involved, but there is with every player.

 

[PackAttack12]

But why? He looked pretty good last year. What if he puts up those numbers again? There's certainly risk and projection involved, but there is with every player.

Allison is a good player and I want to keep him, but I'd prefer not relying on him has the #3 receiver. The Packers can do better.

 

[Mondio]

You're not the guy(s) I'm questioning Mondio.

I can assure you I am only but one guy.

 

[mradtke66]

Allison is a good player and I want to keep him, but I'd prefer not relying on him has the #3 receiver. The Packers can do better.

Better how? His stats projected to over 900 yards receiving last year and 6 touchdowns. I'd be happy with that from our number 2. AFAIK, the only time the Packers have had two receivers with 1000+ yards in the same season was 2014.

 

[gbgary]

This is just a guess. I don’t think Rodgers retires until the 2025 season minimum unless there is extenuating circumstances. I would rather not wait to see if he pulls a BJ Raji.
The time to start winning is now. My ultimate wish is to have GB vs NE in the next 2 years. This is entirely possible if we attack this offseason like there’s no tomorrow. I would rather go down swinging than wait for the perfect opportunity to punch.
I’d like to wrap up 3 positions with stellar FA additions so we can attack this draft aggressively.

Don’t be surprised if GB had the plan all along to trade into the top 3-7 overall this year. Id love to jump in front of Detroit if the right top end Defender slips. Then I would feel entirely comfortable with nailing a few Offensive picks next and even trading around to get an extra day 2 guy. Imagine having a Defender that can reap havoc and is disruptive day 1. Someone that Big Mike and Kenny look up to

all that would be great. there's one thing though...it's not when rodgers retires, it's when he's not effective anymore. he's already begun trending down.

 

[gbgary]

Allison is a good player and I want to keep him, but I'd prefer not relying on him has the #3 receiver. The Packers can do better.

as a 3 cobb's been great. very productive, clutch...when available. whoever takes his place needs to be better than cobb or they haven't improved. the 2, whoever he is, needs to be better than jordy was or they haven't improved.

 

[PackAttack12]

Better how? His stats projected to over 900 yards receiving last year and 6 touchdowns. I'd be happy with that from our number 2. AFAIK, the only time the Packers have had two receivers with 1000+ yards in the same season was 2014.

Allison is a nice player to have on your team, but he's limited.

When your #2 and #3 receivers go down like they did last year, ideally he's the kind of #4 that will step in and hold the fort down.

In a perfect world, this is what I would have:

Davante
#2
Cobb (restructured)
Allison
MVS/EQ (even J'M perhaps)

If MVS or EQ make leaps going into 2019, that's all the better. But I'm not comfortable relying upon that.

The Packers need another explosive playmaker. Not another possession receiver.

 

[gbgary]

Allison is a nice player to have on your team, but he's limited.

When your #2 and #3 receivers go down like they did last year, ideally he's the kind of #4 that will step in and hold the fort down.

In a perfect world, this is what I would have:

Davante
#2
Cobb (restructured)
Allison
MVS/EQ (even J'M perhaps)

If MVS or EQ make leaps going into 2019, that's all the better. But I'm not comfortable relying upon that.

The Packers need another explosive playmaker. Not another possession receiver.

none of those guys are 2's. they're 3's at best but 4's in reality.

 

[mradtke66]

Allison is a nice player to have on your team, but he's limited.

When your #2 and #3 receivers go down like they did last year, ideally he's the kind of #4 that will step in and hold the fort down.

Explain how he's limited. Again, what are you looking for from your 2 and 3 that 950 yards counts as limited?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Right now, as is, the Packers can rely on the offense being top-10 with the current personnel.

That's not true as the Packers finished tied for 14th in points scored last season.

But why? He looked pretty good last year. What if he puts up those numbers again? There's certainly risk and projection involved, but there is with every player.

Well, it's too small of a sample size to evaluate Allison based on last year's numbers, especially considering that his two touchdown receptions accounted for more than 100 of those yards.

I will happily stand corrected if he ends up putting up those numbers over a full season though.

as a 3 cobb's been great. very productive, clutch...when available. whoever takes his place needs to be better than cobb or they haven't improved. the 2, whoever he is, needs to be better than jordy was or they haven't improved.

If you expect the Packers #2 receiver to be better than Jordy was you will be hugely disappointed.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That's not true as the Packers finished tied for 14th in points scored last season.

First, the coach was fired because of that so I'm not sure personnel was seen as the issue. Second, I don't think the Packers are going to rely on two rookie receivers for much of the year again next year, do you?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

First, the coach was fired because of that so I'm not sure personnel was seen as the issue. Second, I don't think the Packers are going to rely on two rookie receivers for much of the year again next year, do you?

Well, you said that right now the Packers can rely on having a top 10 offense. Right now they haven't added any players to improve the unit.

 

[PackAttack12]

Explain how he's limited. Again, what are you looking for from your 2 and 3 that 950 yards counts as limited?

He lacks overall explosiveness, speed to really threaten you over the top, yards after catch ability. I'd say he's a good, not great route runner. He's a good possession receiver with good hands. He's proven to be a reliable target. But it's a far cry from what the Packers have had in the past as a #2 receiver.

If you want to be narrow minded and look at a sample size of games and extrapolate it over a 16 game season then fine. You can find stretches of great play from many players in this league. He hasn't proven to be able to do it over a full season yet though.

Could the Packers win some games with Allison as the #2? Sure. But I don't see the team reaching its ultimate goal with him in that role. The Packers should be aiming higher than to rely upon Allison in that role. Hence the reason they drafted three wide receivers in last year's draft despite him being on the roster with Adams and Cobb.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Well, you said that right now the Packers can rely on having a top 10 offense. Right now they haven't added any players to improve the unit.

They won't have two rookies playing extensively on offense at WR and they have a better (we hope) offensive coach. As it stands, those are big improvements. A team shouldn't need more than an elite QB, elite WR, above-average oline, and an above-average RB to field a top-10 offense. If you think a team needs more than that on offense then the team needs a better coach. The Rams just schemed their way to an elite offense by hiding a mediocre QB behind two good WRs, a good RB, and an above-average oline.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

He lacks overall explosiveness, speed to really threaten you over the top, yards after catch ability. I'd say he's a good, not great route runner. He's a good possession receiver with good hands. He's proven to be a reliable target. But it's a far cry from what the Packers have had in the past as a #2 receiver.

If you want to be narrow minded and look at a sample size of games and extrapolate it over a 16 game season then fine. You can find stretches of great play from many players in this league. He hasn't proven to be able to do it over a full season yet though.

Could the Packers win some games with Allison as the #2? Sure. But I don't see the team reaching its ultimate goal with him in that role. The Packers should be aiming higher than to rely upon Allison in that role. Hence the reason they drafted three wide receivers in last year's draft despite him being on the roster with Adams and Cobb.

Geronimo Allison isn't that far off physically from Cooper Kupp. Not all #2 WRs have to be speed demons.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

They won't have two rookies playing extensively on offense at WR and they have a better (we hope) offensive coach. As it stands, those are big improvements.

As it stands right now the Packers offense hasn't improved since the end of the 2018 season.

Gutekunst will definitely make moves to upgrade the unit before the start of the season but it's not a given that will end up in the team fielding a top 10 offense again in 2019.

 

[JohnnyBlood]

As I read through this thread, I'm a bit confused why so many people are discounting the 3 rookie receivers. It often takes 2-3 years for a WR to learn how to play in the NFL. There are exceptions, but the norm is that it takes time. They haven't even had an off-season with the team yet.

Rookie Season Stats:

Name - Catches - Yards - YPC - TDs
Sharpe - 55 - 791 - 14.4 - 1
Brooks - 12 - 126 - 10.5 - 1
Freeman - 8 - 106 - 13.3 - 1
Driver - 3 - 31 - 10.3 - 1
Ferguson - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0
Jennings - 45 - 632 - 14 - 3
Jones - 47 - 676 - 14.4 - 2
Nelson - 33 - 366 - 11.1 - 2
Cobb - 25 - 375 - 15.0 - 1
Adams - 38 - 446 - 11.7 - 3
Allison - 12 - 202 - 16.8 - 2

MVS - 38 - 581 - 15.3 - 2
Eq St. Brown - 21 - 328 - 15.6 - 0
Moore - 2 - 15 - 7.5 - 0

I'm not saying that these 3 will turn into the other ones I just listed, but they are off to a good start. MVS had a better rookie year than Brooks, Freeman, Driver, Nelson, Cobb, and Adams. EQ wasn't that far behind. Both of them had better YPC than any rookie on the list above.

I know Moore had hands issues, but so did Adams early on and I'm not convinced he can't work his way through it. I think we are undervaluing the improvement that all 3 of these players will make and how much better at least one or two of them will be next year.

Then again, I could be totally wrong and all 3 of them suck next year, but I do think we will be surprised.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As I read through this thread, I'm a bit confused why so many people are discounting the 3 rookie receivers. It often takes 2-3 years for a WR to learn how to play in the NFL. There are exceptions, but the norm is that it takes time. They haven't even had an off-season with the team yet.

Rookie Season Stats:

Name - Catches - Yards - YPC - TDs
Sharpe - 55 - 791 - 14.4 - 1
Brooks - 12 - 126 - 10.5 - 1
Freeman - 8 - 106 - 13.3 - 1
Driver - 3 - 31 - 10.3 - 1
Ferguson - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0
Jennings - 45 - 632 - 14 - 3
Jones - 47 - 676 - 14.4 - 2
Nelson - 33 - 366 - 11.1 - 2
Cobb - 25 - 375 - 15.0 - 1
Adams - 38 - 446 - 11.7 - 3
Allison - 12 - 202 - 16.8 - 2

MVS - 38 - 581 - 15.3 - 2
Eq St. Brown - 21 - 328 - 15.6 - 0
Moore - 2 - 15 - 7.5 - 0

I'm not saying that these 3 will turn into the other ones I just listed, but they are off to a good start. MVS had a better rookie year than Brooks, Freeman, Driver, Nelson, Cobb, and Adams. EQ wasn't that far behind. Both of them had better YPC than any rookie on the list above.

I know Moore had hands issues, but so did Adams early on and I'm not convinced he can't work his way through it. I think we are undervaluing the improvement that all 3 of these players will make and how much better at least one or two of them will be next year.

Then again, I could be totally wrong and all 3 of them suck next year, but I do think we will be surprised.

It's true that both MVS and EQ put up decent numbers during their rookie campaigns. Let's hope both of them develop into reliable starters.

 

[gbgary]

If you expect the Packers #2 receiver to be better than Jordy was you will be hugely disappointed.

i didn't say anything about expecting anything. i said they won't have improved at the 2 unless they find someone better jordy. that's speed, hands, smarts, getting open/route running. not stats. the last time they had two great receivers it was adams/jordy. adams is equal to, or better, than jordy when you combine those areas. improving on adams/jordy is possible. although unlikely they could do it by trading for AB to name one.

 

[mradtke66]

He lacks overall explosiveness, speed to really threaten you over the top,

Had two long balls in 2018. A 64 and 39 yard touchdown. Sounds like threatening over the top to me.

The Packers should be aiming higher than to rely upon Allison in that role.

That's a different argument. I'd like better receivers--hell, it'd be awesome if we got a guy good enough to demote Adams to no. 2. But that'll be tricky. It is completely possible to say G-Mo is a no. 3/fringe no. 2 AND you'd like a better player at the same time, mean both, and not be lying.

Hence the reason they drafted three wide receivers in last year's draft despite him being on the roster with Adams and Cobb.

Or they figured just throw a bunch of stuff at the wall, see what sticks, and maybe get lucky. Nothing shows what in exact science is like those three picks: The highest pick was the least productive of the three. But even then, he could end up being the best of the three. He runs the best routes and just gets open...before dropping the ball. He's not unlike James Jones early in his career. We'll see if he follows that track or washes out of the league.

Anyway....my interpretation is that those picks had more to do with 2019 than last year. The new staff may be unimpressed G-Mo, but Cobb is presumably gone. Assuming Allison is retained as a RFA, you're 6 "deep" ( and I use that term loosely, plenty of question marks) with players with at least 1 year in the league: Adams, Allison, MVS, EQ, Kumaro, and Moore. There's flexibility in who can/have to/want to keep.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Had two long balls in 2018. A 64 and 39 yard touchdown. Sounds like threatening over the top to me.

Allison's 39-yard touchdown catch vs. the Bears was impressive but the 64-yarder he scored vs. Washington was the result of the Redskins completely blowing the coverage. Trust me, I could have scored on that play