Packer Draft Position on the Rise.....

GleefulGary

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In a 3-4 base defense a defensive end is not an edge rusher.


That's why everybody calls them a 3-4 DE. Nobody refers to Mike Daniels or Dean Lowry as a DE. They're interior players. 3T or 5T usually.

With very rare exception, when people are talking about a DE, they are referring to an edge.

And if you look at the post I was referring to, you can see the guy was talking about Montez Sweat, who was labeled as a DE, and he was saying we don't need a DE, we need an edge. Montez Sweat is an edge. That's what I was referring to.
 

GleefulGary

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Not in a freaking 3-4 scheme! I know what I’m talking about, dude. In a 3-4 scheme the DE’s are bigger guys who’s main job is to DEFEND the RUN and occupy blockers...You’re basically calling Mike Daniels and Dean Lowry edge rushers who Are not at all. In a 3-4 scheme the “EDGE Rushers” are the OLB’S. Who RUSH the passer from the EDGE! and/or contain the D gap. That’s the OLBs main purpose in a 3-4. Put that on a sticky note!

If you know all of that, maybe you shouldn't say that 245 pound Montez Sweat isn't an edge. ;)

Look. I said it in the post above, nobody actually refers to a 3-4 base end as a DE because they're interior players. In general when people are talking about a DE they mean the guy who lines up on the outside (that's the most basic term I can think of for you). Danielle Hunter is a DE. He's also an edge.

To avoid confusion, I think it's better if we just refer to DL as iDL and edges, but that can be hard when people like you can't seem to grasp that a 245 college DE is an edge and not an interior player.
 

rodell330

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If you know all of that, maybe you shouldn't say that 245 pound Montez Sweat isn't an edge. ;)

Look. I said it in the post above, nobody actually refers to a 3-4 base end as a DE because they're interior players. In general when people are talking about a DE they mean the guy who lines up on the outside (that's the most basic term I can think of for you). Danielle Hunter is a DE. He's also an edge.

To avoid confusion, I think it's better if we just refer to DL as iDL and edges, but that can be hard when people like you can't seem to grasp that a 245 college DE is an edge and not an interior player.

I stand by what I said..but ok, buddy sure.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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It's hard to practice tackling when you can't wear pads.
It's hard to tackle when you don't use your arms. Tackling can be taught/drilled into a player with or without pads. Tackling is a skill these guys should have had when they came out of college. What is odd though with Jackson, maybe he wasn't that great of a tackler coming out of college? I went back to his scouting reports and read this comment "Needs to tighten up tackling". That scout was spot on.
 

GleefulGary

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Like I told Janis. A DE is NOT an edge rusher in a 3-4 scheme. The Packers NEED to stop drafting guys who were college DE’s and stop trying to make them into OLB’s. They have failed miserably in doing so! Nick Perry and Dhaytone Jones are perfect examples of that!! Clay Matthews was The best 3-4 OLB in terms of getting sacks off the edge! He was ACTUALLY a OLB coming out! Go figure. If they are going to take a DE they need to leave him at DE once he gets into camp! No more projects!

Oh good! This stupid argument again.

Von Miller, Bradley Chubb, TJ Watt, Justin Houston. I could go on, and on, and on, but it shouldn't be that difficult at this point. The number of college teams that run a 3-4 is not very high, so if you only want to draft from them, you are limiting yourself severely.


And Nick Perry has been a good pass rusher when healthy. His issue has been health, not skill.
 

GleefulGary

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It's hard to tackle when you don't use your arms. Tackling can be taught/drilled into a player with or without pads. Tackling is a skill these guys should have had when they came out of college. What is odd though with Jackson, maybe he wasn't that great of a tackler coming out of college? I went back to his scouting reports and read this comment "Needs to tighten up tackling". That scout was spot on.

I talked for a long time pre-draft about how Josh Jackson wasn't a good tackler. Those PFF grades though... ;)

I agree players should know how to tackle coming out, but college coaches aren't allowed a ton of practice time. Now NFL coaches aren't either. And they can't wear pads. Fundamentals are dropping rapidly. Gonna have to figure out a new way to teach.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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I talked for a long time pre-draft about how Josh Jackson wasn't a good tackler. Those PFF grades though... ;)

I agree players should know how to tackle coming out, but college coaches aren't allowed a ton of practice time. Now NFL coaches aren't either. And they can't wear pads. Fundamentals are dropping rapidly. Gonna have to figure out a new way to teach.

I agree and maybe my "eyes stats" are incorrect and I just don't watch enough NFL football, but sure seems like wrapping guys up to make tackles has and continues to be a bigger issue for Packer players. I will always remember HHCDIII as the guy who seemed to think just throwing his body at a player was enough to bring him down and when Jackson did the same yesterday, I just cringed.
 

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Well said. C"mon people it is way to early to give up on Jackson or Burks. Jackson was WR his first three years at Iowa. He is still learning the position. Burks was a safety that moved to LB late in college. He is still learning the position. There is a learning curve in the NFL.

Remember Ahmad Carroll DB drafted in first round from Arkansas. That was a bust.
Always hear "its to early to give up on....name the name" im sick on that i expect a second rounder and a third you reach for to a least play average there first year. Gute needs to do his homework..we cant wait on early round guys. Also add jimmy graham to not doing your homework...terrible move.
 

Mondio

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Like I told Janis. A DE is NOT an edge rusher in a 3-4 scheme. The Packers NEED to stop drafting guys who were college DE’s and stop trying to make them into OLB’s. They have failed miserably in doing so! Nick Perry and Dhaytone Jones are perfect examples of that!! Clay Matthews was The best 3-4 OLB in terms of getting sacks off the edge! He was ACTUALLY a OLB coming out! Go figure. If they are going to take a DE they need to leave him at DE once he gets into camp! No more projects!
and Sweat isn't a 3-4 DE is he? There are too many to list that are absolutely phenomenal at playing OLB that were a DE in college. And Perry is good at setting an edge and collapsing a pocket in a rush. But he's never healthy and that's the issue with him. Datone was lazy, that was the issue with him. Either way, Dom isn't here anymore so the type of players we're looking for will probably change some.

I would never consider Lowrey, Daniels, Adams etc a DE, even though I guess officially that's what they're called. Body type and skill set are DT in my eyes, but what you call them doesn't really matter, it's what they do that does.
 
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Always hear "its to early to give up on....name the name" im sick on that i expect a second rounder and a third you reach for to a least play average there first year. Gute needs to do his homework..we cant wait on early round guys. Also add jimmy graham to not doing your homework...terrible move.

You might not want to hear it, but if you look at many successful NFL players, they were not an instant success their Rookie year, as a point of fact, its probably more the norm than the exception. Just to name 2 of many, Jordy and Davante. Some on this board wanted "Paddle Hands Adams" cut after every game is first few years.

I do realize your frustration though, because Packer fans have heard that about many of our top picks over the years and quite a few of those guys didn't pan out. But I don't think a good GM or coach is just going to say "meh.....bad rookie season, let's get rid of this guy."
 

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I agree and maybe my "eyes stats" are incorrect and I just don't watch enough NFL football, but sure seems like wrapping guys up to make tackles has and continues to be a bigger issue for Packer players. I will always remember HHCDIII as the guy who seemed to think just throwing his body at a player was enough to bring him down and when Jackson did the same yesterday, I just cringed.
completely agree about HHCD diving at peoples feet all the time, the amount of times i saw someone jump over or round him doing this was inexcusable

it's about time that we got a rugby coach to coach proper tackling, i've attended a few training sessions of my local american football team, and wrapping up is something that doesn't really need taught as it's just thought of as normal as most of us have had at least a couple of rugby lessons in highschool
 

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Since we play the Lions and the Bucs and Falcons are still playing each other, Im confident that we have a significant chance that we will pick in the top 10. If we do, I’d love to draft Josh Allen.

Then with our saints pick, depending on how high in the first it is, we draft a quality OT, or Marquise Brown. Perfect guy to replace Cobb imo
 
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Since we play the Lions and the Bucs and Falcons are still playing each other, Im confident that we have a significant chance that we will pick in the top 10. If we do, I’d love to draft Josh Allen.

Then with our saints pick, depending on how high in the first it is, we draft a quality OT, or Marquise Brown. Perfect guy to replace Cobb imo
If we win out, we won't be picking in the top 10, we could even end up as far back as #18. If we win one game, I doubt we will be picking in the top 10.
 

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I think they're going to package the two number one picks to move up, or trade them individually with other lower picks to move up.
 
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I think they're going to package the two number one picks to move up, or trade them individually with other lower picks to move up.
I would be fine with keeping our #3-5 pick and maybe bundling a 3rd rounder with the Saints pick to move up 10-12 spots for a second guy in the first round. ;)
 

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I think they're going to package the two number one picks to move up, or trade them individually with other lower picks to move up.
I certainly hope that does not happen. If we were one good player away... i’d be ok with that. We need several players at several different positions... I would like to see more picks in the first round not less.
 
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I certainly hope that does not happen. If we were one good player away... i’d be ok with that. We need several players at several different positions... I would like to see more picks in the first round not less.
Agreed. I don't think the Packers are just one key addition away from being a complete team. Having 2 first rounders would be preferable to just one higher pick. If those 2 first rounders turn out to be decent players, you have the 5th year option on both. Now if someone offers up their high second and third to move up 5 places for the Saints first rounder, I might consider it :)
 

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If we win out, we won't be picking in the top 10, we could even end up as far back as #18. If we win one game, I doubt we will be picking in the top 10.
well then its time for some self sabotage right now :) Its pretty much paramount that we do not win both matches, preferably losing from the Lions (I know our crowd would love it). It will be interesting to see what approach Philbin is going to adopt given that we are out of the playoffs. Unfortunately I do not see him worrying about draft position that much. I think the FO might, but they would also want to see what Philbin is able to do.

But I agree, I'd rather had the jury's verdict on the Packers season handed to me last week already. Picking top 10 would have then been pretty much guaranteed.
 
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well then its time for some self sabotage right now :) Its pretty much paramount that we do not win both matches, preferably losing from the Lions (I know our crowd would love it). It will be interesting to see what approach Philbin is going to adopt given that we are out of the playoffs. Unfortunately I do not see him worrying about draft position that much. I think the FO might, but they would also want to see what Philbin is able to do.

But I agree, I'd rather had the jury's verdict on the Packers season handed to me last week already. Picking top 10 would have then been pretty much guaranteed.
Yup, hate to say it, but after the Seahawks game, I had a feeling the season was pretty much over and the Vikings game cemented it. Never want to see the Packers lose, but from that point on, I couldn't help but have an eye on what each loss (or win) was doing to their draft position. When the draft rolls around at the end of April, most of us will have forgotten the "good feeling of the Atlanta victory", but some of us might look at the 4-6 players we could have had the opportunity to draft, had we lost that game.

As Green Bay Columnist Pete Daugherty said, "Momentum from a few meaningless wins at the end of the season won't carry over into 2019". What I think will carry over though, is the effect it has on draft position. Coaches and players will be playing to win these last 2 games, but I am fine with seeing a lot of playing time for Kizer and all the other young guys who have a future in Green Bay.
 

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It's bizarre to think that even with how completely f*****g awful we've been this season we might not even pick in the top 10. It's weird to think there are that many teams shi***er than us.
 
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It's bizarre to think that even with how completely f*****g awful we've been this season we might not even pick in the top 10. It's weird to think there are that many teams shi***er than us.
Well if we win out, we are a 7-8-1 team and an 8-8 team is considered "average", which should by default land us in the middle of the draft as an "average team". Now if we finish at 5-10-1.....we will definitely move up to at least #9, since one of those loses would be against the Lions and the winner of the Falcons VS Bills game will also drop below us.

I guess in regards to the draft, its better to be a "completely f*****g awful" team VS an average one.
 

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