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Overall Graft Grades, PF "experts"

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by XPack, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    As I've mentioned repeatedly in the past at the time Thompson had to make the decision letting both Hayward and Hyde walk away seemed to be correct moves. Unfortunately using hindsight they weren't though.
     
  2. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    good frickin grief. Really?

    And randall played much better in Cleveland than in GB.
     
  3. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    You don't agree that using hindsight it was a mistake to let Hayward and Hyde walk away in free agency???

    It's true Randall played better in Cleveland but he was far from being elite with the Browns.
     
  4. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Huh?

    Are we to believe that 6.5's who played as 5's (or even 5's that played as less) never got another chance with any of the other 31 NFL teams? C'mon. Are we to assume that if the Packers cut Josh Jones tomorrow that all 31 teams would conclude that Capers and then Pettine "ruined" him with no one signing him to a 90 man roster and playing him through the preseason to see if he's worth giving a job?

    For a couple of defensive comparables, consider day 2 defensive players in Worthy in 2012 and Thornton in 2014. Go down the draft boards to guys like Beigle or, better yet, Ringo and Bradford who have been bouncing from one practice squad to the next. These guys have gotten second, third, fourth chances to make their bones.

    I challenge you to find a drafted defensive player who was cut and didn't get multiple subsequent chances. I don't think you can find one. Then I challenge you to find, among all the ones who got subsequent chances, one who amounted to anything. You need a microscope to find one of those second, third, fourth, fifth chance players who amounted to anything. You need that scope to find Lawrence Guy, who bounced to 3 other teams over 6 years before finding his niche in New England playing a Dean Lowry-type role, 50% snap counts as primarily a rotational run defender earning a 90 PFF grade last season. Even so, I imagine many posters here don't know who he is or where he came from, if that even matters.

    So what we have here are guys who left in free agency by Thompson decision, who went on to nice contracts and something betweeen solid play and stardom. We might as well add Tramon Williams in Cleveland to Hayward and Hyde. Randall may be turn out to be another similar case in the middle ground between free agency and a cut, traded for somebody else's QB bust. He'd be in the middle ground as well in the respect that Thompson drafted him while Gutekunst traded him.

    That brings us to a common problem-solving falacy, in football or in life, in assuming that there must be one cause of an examined problem. Why do you assume an either/or, Thompson or Capers? In my view, they were both contributors to the chronic defensive problems. The defensive picks represent in the aggregate substandard talent given the draft capital expended. Defensive discipline and accountability was lacking whether you consider 2011 or 2014 as your prime case. And, in the final analysis, if you prefer to focus on Capers' shortcomings as the key problem, it is worth considering Thompson had the wherewithal to replace him.

    To Murphy's credit, even though well late to the game, he saw the dual cause to this problem, replacing both culprits going into 2018, preferring to not test first one theory of the cause before testing the other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  5. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

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    Just my opinion but you use the word "elite" too much. There is such a thing as just a good football player. (Not saying that is Randall yet)
     
  6. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    well no, but had we kept them and they were part of the injuries that we had a gluttony of, we would have been no better and worse off financially too. Keeping them wouldn't have been the correct move under that scenario either. So the reason things didn't work weren't so much because of bad decisions, just ones that didn't work. It happens. At this point if someone Gute or Ted if he were here Sign Jones to a multi year extension to play safety, that i'd hold against them for a long time.

    But Hayward and Hyde weren't dumb decisions, they were tough ones and probably the correct ones with the information at the time. I'm not holding that against anybody, it's life. I call those decisions that didn't work, but not "wrong" ones. Semantics maybe, but I would have considered signing Datone to a big contract or even anything more than a minimum type when his was up as "wrong" because he seemed to have motivation issues. Had all the physical talent, but nothing upstairs or in his heart to make it work. Maybe it's just a distinction I make.
     
  7. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I do believe that is fair. There was not abundant cap to sign these guys. It's necessary to identify the chicken and the egg. These guys were gone in FA before it was even known who the replacements might even be. The decisions to let these guys go were primarily monetary. Thompson ended up reaching for their replacments.

    Signing Perry to that extension prior to 2017, to take one scenario, where only a part of that money would have been needed to retain Hyde, also looked like a decision in the range of reasonableness given 2016 looked like he turned the injury corner.

    But all this misses the larger point. If, over the course of more than a decade, all we can point to only two drafted players "getting away" in FA by signing decent second contracts elsewhere (or even the ones who were simply cut), how should we think that ranks across the league in "lost opportunities"? Awfully darn low I would say.
     
  8. Pugger

    Pugger Cheesehead

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    I hope you guys won't think I'm making excuses for Thompson but knowing now his health was ailing I wonder if that had an effect on his draft performances. If we want to blame anyone we can finger Murphy for not relieving TT of his duties earlier. Let's all hope these changes will result in more success on the field.
     
  9. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Agreed, but Amish was acting as if Randall played at an elite level in Cleveland.

    I guess that's a fair take.
     
  10. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    I never said or implied he was elite.
    You are so determined to believe what you want to believe it makes any discussion frustrating.
     
  11. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I wonder what our "keep" ratio of FA's was compared to the rest of the or how many did we get before they even became FA's? Our drafts at the end couldn't replace what was happening and they weren't very good overall. Definitely not good enough for team that doesn't bring in new FA's very often. But over the course of a decade + there weren't a lot of positions needing a FA signing from some other team either.
     
  12. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Since the instances of free agents who we might call guys who got away in FA over the last decade are so few, I think the first question is answered. All you have to do is look at the players who move around in the league in any one season to get an idea. Here's one list as of April 23 for this past offseason:

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...nfl-free-agency-key-trades-freeagent-signings

    There's always a position that can be upgraded with a FA, a trade, another high pick if the capital is available. Think about the Packer RB and ILB positions in particualar over the last decade.

    Of course there are the other ways a team loses players. Career ending injuries (Collins, Finley, Johnathan Franklin), retirement (Raji), trade (not a Thompson thing), or guys who never fully recoverd from injury to stay on track. A couple guys in this category who stick in my mind, given the ILB struggles over the years, were Desmond Bishop (hamstring surgery) and Sam Barrington (ankle), good players who suffered serious injuries, never fully recovered, released, kicked around the league for a couple of years, and were then out of the league. There are lots of guys who fall in this category, playing then injured than forgotten, with not enough excess physical talent to survive when it is diminished by injury.
     
  13. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Elite, good, much better... It's all about semantics. You implied that Randall didn't perform up to his potential in Green Bay because of Capers. While there's some truth to it Thompson drafting him to play out of position was a reason for it as well.

    The Packers had several positions in need of a veteran upgrade over the past few seasons of Thompson's era. Yet TT choose to reach for prospects at those positions.

    I want to add safety after Collins went down and cornerback when it became obvious Randall and Rollins don't get it done to the list as well.

    Bishop was a very good player but Barrington never performed at a decent level in the first place.
     
  14. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

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    Elite, good, much better is not just semantics. It is an evaluation.
     
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