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Overall Graft Grades, PF "experts"

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by XPack, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Of the 14 defensive players who started 7 or more games in 2016 the only guys still left on the roster are Martinez and Daniels.

    The 12 departed players in that group are Burnett, Clinton-Dix, Ryan, Thomas, Hyde, Gunter, Perry, Rollins, Randall, Guion, Matthews and Peppers.

    That was not a good defense, 18th. in yards, 22nd. in points, 29th. in takeaways. The departing group includes a mix of problem children, underperformers, injured players who could not bounce back, and older players in decline. The only one you could say is "the one that got away" might be Hyde, and while his departure was understandable it was Thompson's doing.

    On offense, the leading skill position players in 2016 were Montgomery, Lacy, Nelson, Adams, Cobb and Cook. Only Adams remains, and I'm not seeing a guy in this departing group as a guy that got away, with problem children and Nelson and Cobb hitting the age/injury wall. Cook had his best season last year in Oakland; see if he gets 101 targets again in an offense with more options. Anyway, Cook departing was also on Thompson's watch anyway.

    Thompson left this team with a slow moving veteran train wreck in progress, without sufficient yield from the drafts in the way of upcoming replacements. If Gutekunst made any mistake at all, it was not starting in 2018, to the extent cap would allow, what he did in for 2019 to reload with second contract players. Thinking Graham was a missing piece was a mistake.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  2. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I don't see Pettine being hired last year as a major change and Thompson wasn't fully out of the picture either, but we split hairs. I prefer you are correct and the Packers turn it around this season, I just don't expect it.
     
  3. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I agree that I would have liked the Packers to add a veteran slot receiver this offseason. Hopefully one of the youngsters can excel in that role though.

    The 2016 team wasn't loaded with talent though. Rodgers carried that squad on his back after the Packers started 4-6 and carried them to the NFCCG. Unfortunately #12 getting injured early next season reared its ugly head about the overall talent level on the roster.
     
  4. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    The roster and cap were aging out. We didn't have the replacements that were ready to step in like in so many other years. A couple poor drafts and aging roster brought us here. It's inevitable for every team at some point. It's hardly a surprise. I think Gute has largely done a good job in re-working the roster. Things don't get easier from here either though. Age and investment in a HOF QB are going to push some moves and there is a lot of pressure on him. So far I think he's done a fine job.
     
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  5. rmontro

    rmontro Cheesehead

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    I didn't think they were loaded with talent either. That team didn't impress me. Even though they got to the NFCCG, they were a long way from being champs. Atlanta destroyed them. My point was Rodgers can carry a half decent team. I see no reason to believe that has changed, IF he can stay healthy.

    Gute's had two years to build the roster. He's had two good drafts plus he's been active in free agency. There should be enough there for Rodgers to do something with. The defense has had an infusion of talent and they are out of excuses. I think they should make the playoffs, but if they don't they should be right on the cusp.
     
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  6. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    The Packers actually had a pretty young team in 2016 (7th youngest overall, second on defense) but completely lacked much needed talent still on rookie deals courtesy of some terrible drafts.

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/snap-weighted-age-2016-nfl-rosters

    I definitely agree with you about that. If Rodgers stays healthy and performs on the level we're used to this year's team could have enough talent for him to carry it all the way.
     
  7. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    youth is relative. Our core of players was aging. the guys we invested in were increasingly injured or already OUT of the league or off the team. I already mentioned the failed drafts and guys not developed or capable of filling in behind. I wasn't trying to say the team was old, but by the time Gute was taking over, we had a handful of aging, injured, and well paid low producing players without replacements. It happens. Even with what I think are mostly decent moves in his 1st 2 seasons, a couple of things could bring this whole thing down too.
     
  8. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I tried really hard to convince a lot of posters around here that the Packers lacked talent for quite some time before the Thompson can't do no wrong crowd finally realized it as well.
     
  9. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    And, despite being asked multiple times, you cant seem to explain how players leave the Packers and mysteriously become talented. How did Hayward and Hyde suddenly become talented all-pro? How is Randall now looking very good for the browns? Do you think if the Packers had these 3 guys playing at or near all pro level in our backfield the defense would have been better? Do you think if we had a great defensive backfield we could have spent more draft capital elsewhere?

    The Thompson can do no wrong crowd only exists in your mind. The thompson is evil because he didnt kiss Brett's a$$ crowd never grew up or bothered to gather any facts. An intelligent crowd realizes Thompson did very well as a GM through much of his career and is very responsible for a lot of success including a SB. Waned a bit at the end, to be sure. But his biggest failing was not making a coaching change. A lot of talent TT drafted went to waste.
     
  10. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I don't know what point you're trying to make as it was Thompson's decision not to retain Hayward and Hyde.

    As I've mentioned repeatedly there's absolutely no doubt that overall Thompson was a very successful general manager. His performance significantly regressed over the last few years of his tenure though.
     
  11. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    They didnt play well while with the Packers so they were replaced. Why did they underperform? Because they weren't talented or because of poor coaching?

    So if you feel TT should have kept them because suddenly they were going to play like All Pros you must be under the impression that suddenly they would have become talented and been great.

    My feelings are, they would have continued to play at a lower level under Capers.
     
  12. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    While you might be right about Capers not being able to have both Hayward and Hyde perform up to potential ultimately it was Thompson's decision to hold on to the coaching staff instead of those two players.
     
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  13. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Yes. TTs failing was to not see the coaching issue and make changes. But that is not what you think. Or you wouldn't have posted this:

    It is my belief that there was talent and it was not developed by the coaching staff. As occurred throughout Capers career. It's a pattern. So, maybe TT was still picking good players, they just were wasted.

    As an example, Lombardi inherited a team with that finished last in the NFl. However, the roster had 15 Allpro or HOF players. That's a lot of talent that failed to win. Coaching is huge.
     
  14. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    It was pretty obvious last season that the overall talent level on the roster Gutekunst inherited from Thompson wasn't good enough by any means.

    In addition Hayward and Hyde were the only players leaving Green Bay who excelled with their new teams. You're fooling yourself when you truly believe that Thompson did a good job late during his tenure as the general manager.
     
  15. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Obvious how? Your assertion that if a team does poorly, the talent is lacking is a little superficial on the analysis.

    If most players are playing below their potential, the team will suffer. Whether they are all pro and play average or they are good players and play below average.

    So again, how do you personally differentiate poor coaching from a lack of talent?

    What I have been seeing the last few years is a poorly coached team. Players out of position. Strange game plans. Arguments in the secondary on coverage. Offensive game plans avoiding purposely an effective run game.
     
  16. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Hayward and Hyde (who performed at a pretty good level in Green Bay as well) being the only one excelling with other teams after leaving the Packers over the past few years is a pretty good indicator the talent level wasn't significantly better than the result might make you think.

    And to be honest I actually don't care about it that much. The results speak for themselves.

    The Packers went 24-23 to end Thompson's tenure from week 7 in 2015 on despite Rodgers playing out of his mind during a 14 game stretch during that period in which he carried the team to a 12-2 record. That's not good enough while having the best quarterback in the league, no matter what.

    Ultimately the GM is the one responsible for the team's record.
     
  17. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    you tried really hard that's for sure. I tend to think most of our perceptions were different than the ones you think some of us had. I'm not having another debate about things long since over and discussed. 14-15-16 saw super bowl capable rosters. There were poor drafts and guys that could have or should have been better that weren't. A lot of things happened, part of which was Ted not making the right choice. It's not a secret and it wasn't revealed by you.

    If it seemed like there was a "ted can do no wrong" crowd it was likely because they were sick of everything is Ted's fault crowd :)
     
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  18. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    I can absolutely agree with the last statement. Ted did not get it done towards the end of his career and he is responsible. But you keep stating that his drafts sucked and the team had a low level talent. I'm challenging you to think. To me it is obvious that there was a much bigger coaching problem and I have been calling for change since 2011.

    But you just proved my line of thinking. Your only evidence is the Packers record as proving a lack of talent. And yes, 2 All Pros in the backfield can have a big effect on a defense. And it's easy to figure that if these 2 guys underperformed, other players also underperformed.


    Excellent!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  19. rmontro

    rmontro Cheesehead

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    I don't think it was all that black and white. Seems to me that Thompson and Capers both bore their share of responsibility for the failures.
     
  20. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    If that were the case, we'd be able to cite who they are, where they went, and what they did.
     
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  21. Dblbogey

    Dblbogey Cheesehead

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    Looking at film from last year it is obvious that Allison and MVS have NFL starting caliber ability. Whether the rookies make a 2nd year jump, or regress, or get hurt, who knows. But, I like our talent at that position.
     
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  22. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    The Packers lacked talent over the last few years of Thompson's tenure because he didn't draft well anymore and was reluctant to fill obvious holes through free agency. While the coaching might deserve part of the blame there's no doubt TT was responsible as well.

    Hayward and Hyde being the only player who left the Packers performing at a very high level serves as evidence that the team didn't have a lot of talented players that were not playing up to potential because of Capers. In addition both of them were pretty good while in Green Bay as well.
     
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  23. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    No, not really. Say all players are on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 is Reggie White and 5 is a marginal roster player. Hyde and Hayward are 8s who played as 6.5s for the Packers. There could have been 6.5s who played as 5s and did not get another chance.

    If you and Capt think the Capers was a good coach and developed players during his career have at it. If Capt thinks 2 players magically becoming talented under a new coach fine. And that 2 Probowlers would not help our defense, great.
     
  24. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    If they didn't get another chance they weren't any good to begin with.

    Hayward and Hyde performed at a high level while with the Packers. Thompson wrongfully thought it would be smart to let them walk and rely on Randall, Rollins and other players that weren't as good though.
     
  25. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    revisionist history. They turned out to be bad moves, mostly because injuries, but hey let's just move past it. Hayward was good and injured here mostly. He's been mostly good and uninured elswhere and is not longer in years 1,2,3 in the league. He should be better. Nobody thought it was a bad move when he was not retained. The very good play from 2 rookies and shields left him expendable. Then they were all injured and one with all the talent in the world had an all world attitude that shown thru and we showed him the door. It happens. and had Hyde been up for a contract this year or even last year, I think they retain him and obviously let HaHa Walk. But at the time HaHa was coming off a probowl and was a young ascending player. and Burnett was an entrenched starter. Hindsight is great, but not many people are paying 6 million+ a year for your 3rd safety.

    Let's quit ignoring what really happened to try and make a point seem stronger.
     

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