Josh Jones wants out of Green Bay.....

Mondio

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I'm not here to discuss Jones. He's not good and I don't particularly care what happens there.

The Micah Hyde slander though, must stop.

His last year in GB he was obviously a starter. A NB is a starter these days. Now, saying he couldn't beat out Randall is not a a very good point (sorry Mondio). Both were playing out of position, and Randall was better suited at CB in comparison. Anyways, Hyde played NB quite well. It was also obvious he couldn't play boundary CB. At the time GB thought they had good safeties, and weren't about to play Hyde over HaHa (valid thinking at the time).

So GB wasn't going to pay Hyde starting safety money to play NB. Which I understand. Hindsight says that was a bad move. It happens. I'm not so sure calling him a cap casualty is what I would say, bc it sounds more negative than what the situation was, imo.
You have to know I’m not slandering Hyde. I’ve said it many times he’s exactly the type of guy you win with because he’s just a good football player. Period.

But that doesn’t change the fact he wasn’t a starting DB or a starting safety for us. He was a guy off the bench is sub packages, an opportunity Jones has here as well, and he was a ST player, same for Jones.

I'm not comparing them as players, never was. Simply this notion that a back up/ST player can't make starter money on a 2nd contract when clearly the opportunities are there for that to happen.

It's not like a Dlineman that is subbed out because of down and distance If you're a starting DB, you might change formation, but you're not taken off the field for someone else.
 
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The Micah Hyde slander though, must stop.

No one is slandering Hyde by any means. Actually he should be used as a prime example of how putting in the work necessary to improve results in a backup earning a lucrative second contract.

Fwiw, taking context into play, Hyde played a lot because he was good. Jones played a lot because of injuries.

Once again, there's no denying Hyde performed on a significantly higher level than Jones. Both had the close to the same amount of opportunities though.
 
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Of course you conveniently ignored the part in which I clearly stated that Hyde performed on a significantly higher level than Jones.
Since I've been making that point over numerous posts I didn't see any point in commenting on that. Did you think I meant something else?
The point being that Jones has gotten the same amount of chances as Hyde to prove he deserves to receive playing time going forward and to possibly be in line for a lucrative second contract.
Where did I disagree with that? Are you under the mistaken impression that I believe Jones is right in asking for a trade? Sheesh. You won't find than anywhere in what I posted. Understanding where somebody is coming from and agreeing with their decisions are two entirely different things.
Jones should have worked hard to improve as it would have been probable for him to play a decent amount of snaps, no matter if Williams would have been the first safety off the bench. With him deciding to head into a different direction that's a moot point though.
Where, pray tell, did I ever disagree with that?
 

Mondio

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for the slow guys in the back, I know what the league has become, I know how often sub guys get on the field when they earn it. Doesn't change the fact that they are sub package guys. Do you think Jones has less opportunities than Hyde did in front of him? It's not the fact that he's a 1st guy off the bench or ST player that's holding him back. being a ****** sub player or a ****** starter isn't going to get him paid. I can see how that would be tough for some to figure out. I think it's rather obvious. But taking advantage of every opportunity to play well as a sub that will be used 80% of the time will get him paid. As we've seen with Hyde. So simple
 

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As I've posted earlier Jones played 82.3% of the defensive snaps over the last nine games after he was injured early in 2018.

The Packers obviously didn't consider him a starter entering this season though.



The depth chart on the defensive line currently includes Clark, Daniels, Lowry, Lancaster, Adams, Brown, Looney and Keke. With Zadarius Smith being able to take snaps inside as well the Packers have enough talent at the position in my opinion.

In addition the team didn't have enough cap space to make another move in free agency to improve the DL as well.
True to form. Packers don't value the dline. Adams and Lowry are needing to take a big step up before I consider the depth anything to even mention.

We don't have cap space because we blew it all on 2 olbs, and a safety. And blew all our draft capital on a olbs and safety?
The dline is Clark and Daniels. Same smallish olb playing on the line. Safety playing lb type of scheme. And that scheme sucks. Without a dline up front that can eat up the blockers ... It was a bad plan with peppers, Mathews, and Perry. And its still a bad plan. Horrible actually. Because not only are you banking on Daniels and Clark taking on the main load, they can't get injured....

Fail.

Every year. Same thing.

Bringing in mo was what we needed. A 3rd stud MINIMUM! Should have 4 with a couple on rookie deals. Now, if Clark or Daniels go down, we are banking the season on adams.
 

Favre>Rodgers259

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Good athlete, poor football IQ, exagerated sense of self-importance.

I agreed to 99% of the rest of your post.

Why do we keep tying the action of him requesting a trade to his character? Requesting a trade makes you an automatic bad apple? I have yet to see any ACTUAL action by Jones that says he's self-centered. This is purely a business move. Makes sense for him, may not totally make sense for the Packers, but this is the NFL, teams and players need to look out for #1 at all times, because you can be on top of the world one day, and in the mud the next.

Does anybody believe that I think Jones got a bad shake and his demand is justified? LOL He's banking on his 2nd. round pedigree, that somebody out there liked him in that draft a little lower down the board and will look past his bad tape to give him snaps in a different scheme and environment.

Bad shake, no. Justified? I'd say definitely somewhat. He played bad, everybody knows that. The Packers responded by investing $36 million and a 1st Round Pick to address his and others' bad play at Safety. Even playing up close to the line, the Packers invested another $118 million, a 1st Round Pick, a 7th, and several UDFAs to fill the role(at least in part) that he actually was decent at. You've already said his chances of becoming a starter or getting significant snaps is low, so why hold it against him that he wants to seek out another opportunity? It's clear Jones wants to be a starter or significant contributor, and he's not getting any younger. At best even if he "develops" he's probably looking at mop up duty and special teams for the next two years barring injuries.


Jones wants it handed to him.

When did he say that? What has he done specifically to mean that he just wants to be given starter reps?

Or he could be traded to a place that may want to use him as a starter, he can not put in the work and improve like he needs to in 2 years and he'll be no better off.

Is it me or did everybody forget the part where he's working out on his own in Florida? He's trying to get better, he's just not doing it with the Packers. Again, he's only missed the VOLUNTARY workouts. He may very well show up to camp.
 

Mondio

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the mistaken impression is arguing from a standpoint that isn't even what started this line of discussion. In case anyone forgot, someone said this,

While glory may be part of it, I suspect it is mostly about the currency.

A bench and special team player doesn't get the starter second contact money. Jones wants to go somewhere to have a shot at a starting position. He's staring down the prospect of being a bench/special teams player the next two seasons and a second contract not even as good as the first.

Clearly they can.

This has nothing to do with thinking Jones is right when almost every single poster has said he's gone about this in the wrong way. It is not about Comparing Hyde and Jones as players as one is clearly the example of what one should do with opportunity and the other seems to want to be the antithesis of that. It's not about diminishing Hyde, as there is nothing to diminish. He's exactly what I hope my kids do, whatever they may do. Work hard, take advantage of opportunity and get rewarded.


Jones' future currency problems have NOTHING to do with being a 1st guy off the bench and ST player proposition and everything to do with his performance. It doesn't matter if he performs poorly as a starter or sub package player, neither will get him rewarded. he might fare better being hidden as a part time situational player at this point in his career.
 

Mondio

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I agreed to 99% of the rest of your post.

Why do we keep tying the action of him requesting a trade to his character? Requesting a trade makes you an automatic bad apple? I have yet to see any ACTUAL action by Jones that says he's self-centered. This is purely a business move. Makes sense for him, may not totally make sense for the Packers, but this is the NFL, teams and players need to look out for #1 at all times, because you can be on top of the world one day, and in the mud the next.



Bad shake, no. Justified? I'd say definitely somewhat. He played bad, everybody knows that. The Packers responded by investing $36 million and a 1st Round Pick to address his and others' bad play at Safety. Even playing up close to the line, the Packers invested another $118 million, a 1st Round Pick, a 7th, and several UDFAs to fill the role(at least in part) that he actually was decent at. You've already said his chances of becoming a starter or getting significant snaps is low, so why hold it against him that he wants to seek out another opportunity? It's clear Jones wants to be a starter or significant contributor, and he's not getting any younger. At best even if he "develops" he's probably looking at mop up duty and special teams for the next two years barring injuries.




When did he say that? What has he done specifically to mean that he just wants to be given starter reps?



Is it me or did everybody forget the part where he's working out on his own in Florida? He's trying to get better, he's just not doing it with the Packers. Again, he's only missed the VOLUNTARY workouts. He may very well show up to camp.


and if you've been following the thread you'll know that I said the best situation for both parties is for Jones to show up and work.

why do I think he's doing it because he wants starter reps? first, this line of discussion was started by someone saying he did it for that reason so he could eventually get paid with a 2nd contract. but beyond that, knowing full well that the next best players will see the field 80% of the time or more thru sub packages and injuries, it's not a stretch to think he has a problem being labled a back up despite having the opportunity to play almost every snap possible on defense.

and on a side note, WTF happened with these ads again? I type fairly quickly and can't get 12 words on screen until some ****ing ad takes my cursor off screen again.
 
D

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Since I've been making that point over numerous posts I didn't see any point in commenting on that. Did you think I meant something else?

Where did I disagree with that? Are you under the mistaken impression that I believe Jones is right in asking for a trade? Sheesh. You won't find than anywhere in what I posted. Understanding where somebody is coming from and agreeing with their decisions are two entirely different things.

Where, pray tell, did I ever disagree with that?

In that case you might be surprised that you don't need to reply with three paragraphs but could just the agree button below my post.

True to form. Packers don't value the dline. Adams and Lowry are needing to take a big step up before I consider the depth anything to even mention.

Bringing in mo was what we needed. A 3rd stud MINIMUM! Should have 4 with a couple on rookie deals. Now, if Clark or Daniels go down, we are banking the season on adams.

Lowry has performed at a pretty high level over the past two seasons, Lancaster showed some promise and Zadarius will line up inside occasionally as well.

While I would have liked the Packers to bring back Wilkerson it's possible he won't be able to return to full strength after a terrible injury last season.

Overall the Packers have enough talent on the defensive line to field a top 10 defense in 2019.

I agreed to 99% of the rest of your post.

Why do we keep tying the action of him requesting a trade to his character? Requesting a trade makes you an automatic bad apple? I have yet to see any ACTUAL action by Jones that says he's self-centered. This is purely a business move. Makes sense for him, may not totally make sense for the Packers, but this is the NFL, teams and players need to look out for #1 at all times, because you can be on top of the world one day, and in the mud the next.

Bad shake, no. Justified? I'd say definitely somewhat. He played bad, everybody knows that. The Packers responded by investing $36 million and a 1st Round Pick to address his and others' bad play at Safety. Even playing up close to the line, the Packers invested another $118 million, a 1st Round Pick, a 7th, and several UDFAs to fill the role(at least in part) that he actually was decent at. You've already said his chances of becoming a starter or getting significant snaps is low, so why hold it against him that he wants to seek out another opportunity? It's clear Jones wants to be a starter or significant contributor, and he's not getting any younger. At best even if he "develops" he's probably looking at mop up duty and special teams for the next two years barring injuries.

When did he say that? What has he done specifically to mean that he just wants to be given starter reps?

Is it me or did everybody forget the part where he's working out on his own in Florida? He's trying to get better, he's just not doing it with the Packers. Again, he's only missed the VOLUNTARY workouts. He may very well show up to camp.

It seems Jones completely lacks self awareness as no other team will be interested in trading for him after he struggled for most of the past two seasons.

I don't care about the reasons for him not showing up to OTAs, he should be working his butt off to improve and earn playing time with the Packers or any other team for that matter if Green Bay decides to move on.

That doesn't make him a bad person but definitely not a consummate pro teams are eager to have in their locker rooms.
 

Favre>Rodgers259

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Enough with the starter vs not a starter discussion because it's entirely irrelevant.

There are analytics that can take a players snaps(even in certain situations) that project how he will do over the course of a season. How do you think Davon House got paid in Jacksonville(Granted they were totally wrong)?

If Jones plays(for anybody), interested teams will have a projection and pay him accordingly on his next contract.
 
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In that case you might be surprised that you don't need to reply with three paragraphs but could just the agree button below my post.
Feel free to agree with my posts even if you don't understand them and make counterpoints to arguments therein that I never made.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Enough with the starter vs not a starter discussion because it's entirely irrelevant.

There are analytics that can take a players snaps(even in certain situations) that project how he will do over the course of a season.
Yeah, you raise a missed point in the starter/non-starter argument even if you don't care about it.

The argument runs that Hyde was signed to a nice contract by Buffalo to play safety based on coming off the bench to play safety for handful of games for the injured Burnett as though they would never have looked at his slot tape and how that might further project him to safety.

Playing slot corner involves a fair amount of safety-like play. It is a different position requiring a different skill set than perimeter corner. The slot corner has to line up over slot TEs. If it's a close slot, TE or otherwise, he's positioned to defend the run with TEs and O-Linemen coming out at him at the second level. There are a fair number of snaps where the hybrid ILB/box safety/slot corner blur. Further, dropping into zone from the slot corner position gives more indications of safety capability.

In assessing Hyde, I would say he looked pretty darn good in those safety-like snaps. His weakness was in handling the waterbug slots who would beat him off the break. He just didn't have the twitch and short field quickness to defend those players. Buffalo would have seen a lot to like in those starter slot corner snaps that spelled "safety".
 

gopkrs

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Yeah, you raise a missed point in the starter/non-starter argument even if you don't care about it.

The argument runs that Hyde was signed to a nice contract by Buffalo to play safety based on coming off the bench to play safety for handful of games for the injured Burnett as though they would never have looked at his slot tape and how that might further project him to safety.

Playing slot corner involves a fair amount of safety-like play. It is a different position requiring a different skill set than perimeter corner. The slot corner has to line up over slot TEs. If it's a close slot, TE or otherwise, he's positioned to defend the run with TEs and O-Linemen coming out at him at the second level. There are a fair number of snaps where the hybrid ILB/box safety/slot corner blur. Further, dropping into zone from the slot corner position gives more indications of safety capability.

In assessing Hyde, I would say he looked pretty darn good in those safety-like snaps. His weakness was in handling the waterbug slots who would beat him off the break. He just didn't have the twitch and short field quickness to defend those players. Buffalo would have seen a lot to like in those starter slot corner snaps that spelled "safety".
Sounds like the slot corner position involves or should involve quite a bit of chess playing by the coaches. Based on your understanding of the slot defender, whoever plays the slot corner would depend on the team you are playing and the situation on the field. It would be a position that changes players quite a bit.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I agreed to 99% of the rest of your post.
Why do we keep tying the action of him requesting a trade to his character?
Saying someone has an "exagerated sense of self-importance" is not in my mind a question of character. It's more a case of being delusional. I don't recall seeing anything to indicate Jones has been a bad citizen in the locker room or in private life.

It's as though Jones expects other teams to not look at his NFL tape and wind the clock back to a draft projection. It doesn't work that way. Then leaking to the press that he's demanded to be traded, hoping to get himself on other teams' radars, only makes matters worse. If he wants his agent to make the case that it was a poor scheme fit or he was misused, good luck with that. Maybe somebody would bite. A conditional low round pick would be better than nothing. But he has poisoned the well so now he has to go.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Sounds like the slot corner position involves or should involve quite a bit of chess playing by the coaches. Based on your understanding of the slot defender, whoever plays the slot corner would depend on the team you are playing and the situation on the field. It would be a position that changes players quite a bit.
Right, it's a game of matchups. It's not like you're subbing and moving guys around in the backfield all willy-nilly, but there are a sufficient number of plays where it matters if you have the personnel mix and player scheme flexibility to want to apply it.

To take one example, the Packers play KC this year. I'd be pretty surprised if Alexander doesn't take snaps against Hill out of the slot (if Hill's not suspended) or if Amos doesn't come up in the slot to take on Kelce in 4-wide with man/blitz. Against other teams with different kinds of threats and schemes Alexander might play a whole game on the perimenter or Amos primarily in 2-high.

For a retrospective example, we had a debate over what position Jerome Whitehead played in the Rams game last season (along with how well he played) where he took 75 defensive snaps. I contended he was playing ILB; the Captain had other thoughts.

If you go to post #227 in the following thread you'll find PFF's position breakdown provided by the Captain:

https://www.packerforum.com/threads/clinton-dix-traded-to-redskins.81146/page-10#post-797350

What you'll find is that Whitehead took about half his snaps in the box, but for the rest he was all over the field playing every position but DT, DE and the kitchen sink, including 8 snaps at slot corner to be specific to the point of the question.

One thing you might note is PFF had him taking 23 snaps at RLB and LLB. Those are 4-3 positions as distinct from LOLB and ROLB, which they also had him playing. How can that be? The Packers play a 3-4, right? Actually, no, the Packers do not play strictly a 3-4 anymore and haven't since Capers' last couple of years. The pure 3-4 is a default look just as there is a "base defense" default. Those are just models for context in any discussion.

In fact, this is a hybrid defense with a lot of 4-3 and 4-3 under looks. That's probably a partial answer to the PFF position designation. PFF is probably also looking at positioning against the offensive set. If he was lined up outside the OT or over an in-line TE off the ball they might have called that RLB or LLB where the ILB distinction might be slight.

While that array of positions might seem unusual for a ILB/safety hybrid, actually with the exception of FS and perimeter corner it really isn't. Scheme variation and matchups dictate various positioning and various responsibilities with many players and that hybrid player in particular.

That a player like Whitehead was expected to perform all these positions against all these matchups like he was the second coming of Charles Woodson had a lot to do with poor depth in the D-backfield. But the only guy in this defense who does one thing and only one thing is King: left outside corner. He's got more than his hands full learning that, particularly zone coverages. Everybody else works scheme and player matchups to one degree or another in a variety of sets.

Getting back to Hyde, if his weakness as a slot corner was covering jitterbug slots, in keeping with him being a natural safety which worked well in other slot matchups, why not pull him for those snaps? His snap count jumped from the 60-ish% to 80% in his last season while playing the slot corner role almost exclusively. Hayward leaving in FA had something to do with that snap count jump. We really didn't have anybody better to work those other matchups once Hayward left. That didn't diminish Hyde's projection as a safety, nor should it have, as the Buffalo contact illustrates. The Packers just wouldn't pay him $6 mil per year to play him at his less than optimal position while the players at safety were committed. I'm sure they would have loved to keep him around but could not justify that price. That makes Hyde a cap casualty.

This all reminds me of another fact: We can add Whitehead to the list of guys Jones could not beat out. In Whitehead's 75 snap game cited above Jones was active, played 24 special teams snaps but zero defensive snaps. Of all the roles Whitehead played in that game Jones could not bump him out of any of them. Of course Whitehead slapped an opponent in the very next game, got ejected and then immediately cut. Something tells me that slap followed some other undisclosed incident(s). Regardless, call it Gutekunst's second "accountability" line in the sand following Montgomery.

Brice, Campell and Whitehead: This is the illustrious group that took Jones' snaps. IR, IR and a disciplinary cut, repectively, opened the door for Jones to start. If there was ever an opportunity by default, this was it. He's right in thinking that kind of opportunity is not likely to be repeated.

Is there any reason to think Jones' trade demand is not delusional? That should be reserved for somebody who could actually beat out somebody besides Raven Green.
 
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GreenBaySlacker

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People were talking about our dline depth behind Clark and Daniels..... About how they were pretty good....

I simply pointed out the damn lions wiped their ***** with us that last game. With those depth guys playing.... And I'm not close to ok with the results.

We needed olb help. And safety help... But we didn't address the loss of mo, or add any substantial depth on dline... At all. Ugh. That is a kick to the sack of our season.

Adams might break out. Lowry is a serviceable player..... Yea. But 31-0. Call me nuts but I want more.
The other dudes havnt even earned a roster spot in my mind yet. They might be the next Daniels. Or the two 4ths we used to trade up for a 5'10 safety could have been. Who knows... Its not my job to know...

But what I do know is banking a player will break out or become the next Daniels. Gem find up front.... That's betting long odds...
 

Mondio

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if you're using the last game as your barometer you missed the rest of the season. Nobody was happy with those results and the good news is, nobody should expect that from those guys every week either. They're all better than that last game.
 

Mondio

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Raven Greene is better than Josh Jones too.
He is and he's working hard. I'm excited for this kid quite a bit actually. and to clarify again, I'm not comparing players so much as comparing the situations. IF, Jones wants to get paid, he needs to get better. He has every opportunity to show teams he's worth money on a 2nd contract. That's my point, being a "backup" doesn't prevent that. It was said back in the beginning of this thread, before "is he a starter or isn't he" line came up, that with the amount of injuries in a typical season and the amount of sub packages teams play today those first guys off the bench play a lot. Just like Hyde did.

and if he can't beat out Greene for playing time, he'll have less here, that's certain. But cut him and and let him go to a team that has even worse than that for him to compete for playing time against, maybe it gives him more playing time, but he won't be any better and won't be making any more money the 2nd time around either.
 
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If Jones plays(for anybody), interested teams will have a projection and pay him accordingly on his next contract.

I highly doubt that because the CBA doesn't allow teams to pay players less than the minimum ;)

People were talking about our dline depth behind Clark and Daniels..... About how they were pretty good....

I'm well aware that you would like the Packers to have four dominant players on the defensive line but as that is being unrealistic I'm fine with the talent level at the position at this point.
 

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I highly doubt that because the CBA doesn't allow teams to pay players less than the minimum ;)



I'm well aware that you would like the Packers to have four dominant players on the defensive line but as that is being unrealistic I'm fine with the talent level at the position at this point.
I’d give a funny for the first ... but I guess an agree is the best way to cover both points.
 

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