Josh Jones wants out of Green Bay.....

[Mondio]

Hyde showed some promise early and worked hard for four years before signing a decent contract with another team though.

I don't consider Jones to be on a similar path at this point.

That was my point. Hyde was never more than bench guy at DB and safety for 4 years here. Never complained, always worked. Became a FA and signed a 30+ million dollar deal and became a starter.

Hyde and Jones couldn't be on more different paths at this point in their career. I was just pointing out, back up guys do get starter money on 2nd contracts despite having been a back up elsewhere.

 

[GleefulGary]

That was my point. Hyde was never more than bench guy at DB and safety for 4 years here. Never complained, always worked. Became a FA and signed a 30+ million dollar deal and became a starter.

Hyde and Jones couldn't be on more different paths at this point in their career. I was just pointing out, back up guys do get starter money on 2nd contracts despite having been a back up elsewhere.

Hyde was essentially a starter with as much as he played.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Hyde was essentially a starter with as much as he played.

Hyde (61.4% of the defensive snaps) didn't play significantly more during his four seasons with the Packers than Jones (58.3%) has so far.

 

[HardRightEdge]

interesting spin I guess

To what may you be referring, pray tell? LOL

Hyde was a run of the mill slot corner. He looked best playing safety when Burnett was injured.

The Packers had Clinton-Dix and Burnett when Hyde was signed away. The Packers were not going pay Hyde the money Buffalo offered to start at safety in order for him to remain a mediocre slot corner and #3 safety. That is a cap casualty.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Hyde's GB defensive snap counts were:

2013: 40%
2014: 64%, second among CBs
2015: 62%, third among CBs, 1 missed game
2016: 80%, first among CBs

NOTE: Correction on 2016; Hyde had slightly fewer snaps than Gunter.

I wonder if anybody watches the games anymore (besides JanisJubilee ).

Hyde took few snaps in base D during his time in GB, other than when filling in for Burnett. Starting in year 2, he took a majority of the snaps to be had as the slot corner in nickel/dime when not filling in for Burnett, particularly in 2015 when Burnett missed 5 games.

In his contract year, he may have taken every nickel and dime snap to be had at slot corner. If that's not a "starter", I don't know what is.

Buffalo wanted to pay Hyde more to be a starting safety than the Packers wanted to pay him to be a "starting" slot corner. If the word "starter" has any meaning, it applies to the guys who play in nickel/dime for 80% of the snaps.

 

[Mondio]

LOL is right, you just got done saying back ups don't get starter money on 2nd contracts, enter Micah Hyde. Coudn't crack a starting DB role, couldn't crack a starting safety role until someone got hurt. Was not a cap casualty. He showed other teams he was capable of starter level play and got it.

But I wasn't the one that said

A bench and special team player doesn't get the starter second contact money.

I didn't think I needed to type more than Micah Hyde.

 

[Mondio]

Hyde's GB defensive snap counts were:

2013: 40%
2014: 64%, second among CBs
2015: 62%, third among CBs, 1 missed game
2016: 80%, first among CBs

I wonder if anybody watches the games anymore (besides JanisJubilee ).

Hyde took few snaps in base D during his time in GB, other than when filling in for Burnett. Starting in year 2, he took a majority of the snaps to be had as the slot corner in nickel/dime when not filling in for Burnett, particularly in 2015 when Burnett missed 5 games.

In his contract year, he may have taken every nickel and dime snap to be had at slot corner. If that's not a "starter", I don't know what is.

spin baby, spin LOL

Jones took over 80% of the snaps to finish out the 2nd half of his 2nd season. Was he a starter? They have the same opportunities, I think you like to argue just to argue. You said, back ups dont' get starter money on 2nd contracts. Micah Hyde did.

 

[Mondio]

Hyde was essentially a starter with as much as he played.

you don't think Jones has that opportunity in today's NFL? Hyde was never a starting safety other than from injury. Heck, Jones may have had that already too, probably would have that opportunity again next year at some point. and Hyde was never a starting DB.

Don't think i'm comparing the 2 in how they've performed. Hyde took every opportunity to work hard and show what he could do. and was rewarded for it. Jones thinks he should just get it. Someone on here said backups couldn't get starter money on a 2nd contract. I say we don't have to look too far to see that doesn't hold true. But I think Jones is afraid to put in the work.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Jones took over 80% of the snaps to finish out the 2nd half of his 2nd season. Was he a starter? They have the same opportunities, I think you like to argue just to argue. You said, back ups dont' get starter money on 2nd contracts. Micah Hyde did.

Oh, I guess you were talking to me after all. LOL

Well, if a guy taking more snaps than any other corner on the roster at 80% isn't a starter, I don't know what you'd call him. If you want to call some D-Lineman a "starter" who takes the first snap of every game in base defense and then gets pulled in the 80% nickel/dime snaps, go right ahead. It still won't make any meaningful sense.

Hyde was a slot corner starter and #3 safety. He became a cap casualty. What Jones has to do with that I have no clue.

 

[Mondio]

LOL

 

[HardRightEdge]

LOL

I'm not sure what I'd rather see. (1) You actually quoting the posts you reply to instead of the passive aggressive alternative or (2) you knowing what you are talking about.

I think I'd rather have (1), LOL.

 

[Mondio]

Micah Hyde, never more than 1st guy off the bench at any position other than thru injury. Career back up player and ST player gets 2nd contract for starter money. Someone says it can't be done. Someone will twist until they find a way to be right LOL

He never even beat out Demarious Randall for a starting DB position for crying out loud. some people think playing more snaps as a back up because 3 starters go down in a season proves he's a starting "nickel back" AKA, 1st guy off the bench. LOL

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I have no idea what that has to do with the talent level on the defensive line.

I hope you guys are right about the optimism towards our dline depth.....

I wouldve stacked the dline like the olbs and safetys got stacked this year... As you know.
And it kills me that the giants got Lawrence.... The two 4th rounders to trade up..... That's where you find the next Daniels ...

We didn't do anything to replace mo Wilkerson. With mo, I was satisfied... And optimistic... We need another star. We need another mo.

Dang it. Giants..... I called that by the way. Or ravens... Ugh... Giants ...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Well, if a guy taking more snaps than any other corner on the roster at 80% isn't a starter, I don't know what you'd call him. If you want to call some D-Lineman a "starter" who takes the first snap of every game in base defense and then gets pulled in the 80% nickel/dime snaps, go right ahead. It still won't make any meaningful sense.

As I've posted earlier Jones played 82.3% of the defensive snaps over the last nine games after he was injured early in 2018.

The Packers obviously didn't consider him a starter entering this season though.

I hope you guys are right about the optimism towards our dline depth.....

I wouldve stacked the dline like the olbs and safetys got stacked this year... As you know.

We didn't do anything to replace mo Wilkerson. With mo, I was satisfied... And optimistic... We need another star. We need another mo.

The depth chart on the defensive line currently includes Clark, Daniels, Lowry, Lancaster, Adams, Brown, Looney and Keke. With Zadarius Smith being able to take snaps inside as well the Packers have enough talent at the position in my opinion.

In addition the team didn't have enough cap space to make another move in free agency to improve the DL as well.

 

[HardRightEdge]

As I've posted earlier Jones played 82.3% of the defensive snaps over the last nine games after he was injured early in 2018.

The Packers obviously didn't consider him a starter entering this season though.

I was referring to Hyde in that post.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I was referring to Hyde in that post.

I know, but if you considered Hyde a starter because he played 80% of the snaps the same should be true for Jones.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I know, but if you considered Hyde a starter because he played 80% of the snaps the same should be true for Jones.

I never said Jones wasn't a starter. I said that Hyde was a cap casualty and there is little point of comparison. Let's recap.

Jones prospects to be a starter in GB in the last 2 years of his contract are nil, barring injury. And if he doesn't play his prospects for a decent second contract are nil. What does anybody think this demand to be traded is about?

Hyde was not a bench player. He was the primary nickel corner which equates to a starter in the NFL. Burnett missed 10 games in the time Hyde was with the Packers putting up good tape at the position for most of those missed starts. Buffalo didn't pay him $30.5 mil over 5 years to play safety on a whim.

Jones does not have any good tape.

As a nickel corner I considered Hyde average, not quick enough for man coverage against the quicker slots. Would the Packers have liked to keep Hyde? Sure. Decent player with positional flexibility. But they were not going to pay him that Buffalo money to be an average slot corner and a backup safety behind Clinton-Dix and Burnett, guys who missed only one game between them in Hyde's last season. If somebody is going to give a FA a decent contract for their purposes for more money than you think he is worth for your purposes, that is a cap casualty in my book.

Mondio argued that Hyde only played slot corner because of injuries. Or is that nickel corner is not a "starter" position? Not entirely sure. Either way, that's not true. Shields snaps went to Gunter. Coming into his last season, Hyde was the presumptive starter at nickel corner, not Rollins. It was Rollins job to beat him out, not the other way around. They let Hayward walk (another cap casualty) prior to that season seeing Hyde as the better value proposition.

So what are we arguing here? That Jones should have kept his mouth shut, stick around and compete over the next two season waiting to prove himself up for that second contract? Sure, because it is a long shot that he's going to get what he wants based on his tape, and making this demand is black mark. Good athlete, poor football IQ, exagerated sense of self-importance.

Does anybody believe that I think Jones got a bad shake and his demand is justified? LOL He's banking on his 2nd. round pedigree, that somebody out there liked him in that draft a little lower down the board and will look past his bad tape to give him snaps in a different scheme and environment.

While improbable, there's a non-zero probability he's right. And if he is right, good for him. And at this point, good for us. Call it a win-win.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I never said Jones wasn't a starter. I said that Hyde was a cap casualty and there is little point of comparison. Let's recap.

Jones prospects to be a starter in GB in the last 2 years of his contract are nil, barring injury. And if he doesn't play his prospects for a decent second contract are nil. What does anybody think this demand to be traded is about?

Hyde was not a bench player. He was the primary nickel corner which equates to a starter in the NFL. Burnett missed 10 games in the time Hyde was with the Packers putting up good tape at the position for most of those missed starts. Buffalo didn't pay him $30.5 mil over 5 years to play safety on a whim.

Jones does not have any good tape.

As a nickel corner I considered Hyde average, not quick enough for man coverage against the quicker slots. Would the Packers have liked to keep Hyde? Sure. Decent player with positional flexibility. But they were not going to pay him that Buffalo money to be an average slot corner and a backup safety behind Clinton-Dix and Burnett, guys who missed only one game between them in Hyde's last season. If somebody is going to give a FA a decent contract for their purposes for more money than you think he is worth for your purposes, that is a cap casualty in my book.

Mondio argued that Hyde only played slot corner because of injuries. Or is that nickel corner is not a "starter" position? Not entirely sure. Either way, that's not true. Shields snaps went to Gunter. Coming into his last season, Hyde was the presumptive starter at nickel corner, not Rollins. It was Rollins job to beat him out, not the other way around. They let Hayward walk (another cap casualty) prior to that season seeing Hyde as the better value proposition.

So what are we arguing here? That Jones should have kept his mouth shut, stick around and compete over the next two season waiting to prove himself up for that second contract? Sure, because it is a long shot that he's going to get what he wants based on his tape, and making this demand is black mark. Good athlete, poor football IQ, exagerated sense of self-importance. Does anybody believe that I think Jones got a bad shake and his demand is justified? LOL He's banking on his 2nd. round pedigree, that somebody out there liked him in that draft a little lower down the board and will look past his bad tape to give him snaps in a different scheme and environment.

While improbable, there's a non-zero probability he's right. And if he is, good for him. And at this point, good for us. Call it a win-win.

There's absolutely no doubt that Hyde performed at a significantly better level than Jones during his time in Green Bay. I'm not arguing that by any means.

All I'm saying is that it's odd that you consider one of them a starter but not the other although both played a similar percentage of snaps with the Packers.

 

[Mondio]

no, I said that a back up player who works hard and uses his opportunities gets a 2nd contract at starter money. Hyde got that thru hardwork and opportunity. Jones wants it handed to him. You said it couldn't happen so Jones was making a business decision. I said it back in the beginning of this thread along with others. If Jones wants more money, he needs to take advantage of opportunity and work for it and he will be rewarded for it, by us or someone else. with all the sub packages we play and injuries that happen, Jones should have ample opportunity to prove his worth to the Packers or anyone else.

Hyde was never a starter except thru injury, same as how Jones has been a "starter" a couple times already. Even Hyde's last season, he got his starts thru injury to someone else. Dix and Burnett were starting safeties, not hyde. Gunter and Randall were starting DB's, not Hyde. he got his playing time thru injury and sub packages because he was a backup. A guy I happened to like quite a bit, because every chance he got to work and play, he did. showed someone he was worth a 30 million dollar contract the 2nd time around.

Jones could go be a starter for someone else right now, it won't matter, his 2nd contract won't be any better because he's not showing anyone he's worth it. handed a starting position or showing his worth as the 1st guy off the bench like Hyde did. Something you said doesn't happen.

 

[HardRightEdge]

All I'm saying is that it's odd that you consider one of them a starter but not the other although both played a similar percentage of snaps with the Packers.

Jones sucked, starter or otherwise, at two different positions, and was a starter at safety only by virtue of injury, and his prospects to get sufficient snaps to "develop" over the next two years are a very low. Williams was going to be the first safety off the bench regardless. It would take a corner injury or performance failure at CB demanding Williams presence there, along with an injury at safety, for Jones to get his "prove it" snaps. He couldn't even beat out Brice or Campbell for gosh sakes, and they didn't even want to give Brice a low tender.

You might as well compare Gunter to Hyde since Gunter was a starter in 2016.

Hyde was a starter and not by default. He was the nickel corner by design.

So, do you want to compare Jones situation to that of Hyde? Is that what you want to argue? If not, then it's all just counting the angels on the head of pin.

 

[HardRightEdge]

no, I said that a back up player who works hard and uses his opportunities gets a 2nd contract at starter money. Hyde got that thru hardwork and opportunity. Jones wants it handed to him. You said it couldn't happen so Jones was making a business decision. I said it back in the beginning of this thread along with others. If Jones wants more money, he needs to take advantage of opportunity and work for it and he will be rewarded for it, by us or someone else.

I have no idea who you are replying to.

Seriously, why do you think I disagree with that? Clearly, Jones is making a business decision. He doesn't want to wait around for an injury to get opportunities. Do I think this is the right way for a player to go in his situation? No, I do not. You may be confusing my calling for his departure, acceding to his demands, as some kind of agreement with his position. He skipped voluntary work. He already told you he does not want to compete in Green Bay. What are you arguing? That he should do something he's made clear he is not willing to do? Bang your head against the wall much? I think this kind of player making this demand should be excised from the roster. If it works out for him, then good for him.

Hyde was never a starter except thru injury, same as how Jones has been a "starter" a couple times already. Even Hyde's last season, he got his starts thru injury to someone else. Dix and Burnett were starting safeties, not hyde. Gunter and Randall were starting DB's, not Hyde.

You appear to laboring under the misconception that the nickel corner, which is the slot corner, is just the "3rd. best" corner hanging around on the game day active list, that in the Packers estimation Gunter was a "better" corner than Hyde. First, slot corer is a different skill set calling for a different kind of player. Second, you can call a slot corner a "bench player" until you are blue in the face, but this league is a nickel/dime league now and has been for quite some time.

Jones could go be a starter for someone else right now, it won't matter, his 2nd contract won't be any better because he's not showing anyone he's worth it.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Starting somewhere else would absolutely be a better opportunity to earn a better second contract. Why assume he won't show anybody his worth in that situation? Because you think he'd blow it? I'd agree with that. Then you must think he's a bubble-like player, demand or no demand. I'd agree with that.

What do you want out of this situation? Not what should have happened. Now what you wish had happened.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Jones sucked, starter or otherwise, at two different positions, and was a starter at safety only by virtue of injury, and his prospects to get sufficient snaps to "develop" over the next two years are a very low probability. Williams was going to be the first safety off the bench regardless. It would take a corner injury or performance failure at CB demanding Williams presence there, along with an injury at safety, for Jones to get his "prove it" snaps. He couldn't even beat out Brice or Campbell for gosh sakes, and they didn't even want to give Brice a low tender.

You might as well compare Gunter to Hyde since Gunter was a starter in 2016.

Hyde was a starter and not by default. He was the nickel corner by design.

So, do you want to compare Jones situation to that of Hyde? Is that what you want to argue? If not, then it's all just counting the angels on the head of pin.

Of course you conveniently ignored the part in which I clearly stated that Hyde performed on a significantly higher level than Jones.

The point being that Jones has gotten the same amount of chances as Hyde to prove he deserves to receive playing time going forward and to possibly be in line for a lucrative second contract. Actually I don't care about thinking of them as starters or not.

Jones should have worked hard to improve as it would have been probable for him to play a decent amount of snaps, no matter if Williams would have been the first safety off the bench.

With him deciding to head into a different direction that's a moot point though.

 

[Mondio]

of course Hyde has performed better than Jones, that's kind of the point. It was said that bench and ST player isn't going to be in line for starter money on a 2nd contract. We have a perfect example of a player taking advantage of just that and getting a nice 2nd contract in the not so distant past. It has nothing to do with a guy being a bench and ST player, it has to do with their performance, period. Jones could work and get better and be financially better off in 2 years just like Hyde.

Or he could be traded to a place that may want to use him as a starter, he can not put in the work and improve like he needs to in 2 years and he'll be no better off.

His starter or bench special teams status is not what is holding him back from making a lot of money with a 2nd contract. not even a little bit. that is the point and has been the point the entire time.

 

[GleefulGary]

I'm not here to discuss Jones. He's not good and I don't particularly care what happens there.

The Micah Hyde slander though, must stop.

His last year in GB he was obviously a starter. A NB is a starter these days. Now, saying he couldn't beat out Randall is not a a very good point (sorry Mondio). Both were playing out of position, and Randall was better suited at CB in comparison. Anyways, Hyde played NB quite well. It was also obvious he couldn't play boundary CB. At the time GB thought they had good safeties, and weren't about to play Hyde over HaHa (valid thinking at the time).

So GB wasn't going to pay Hyde starting safety money to play NB. Which I understand. Hindsight says that was a bad move. It happens. I'm not so sure calling him a cap casualty is what I would say, bc it sounds more negative than what the situation was, imo.

 

[GleefulGary]

Hyde (61.4% of the defensive snaps) didn't play significantly more during his four seasons with the Packers than Jones (58.3%) has so far.

Ok? I never mentioned Jones.

Fwiw, taking context into play, Hyde played a lot because he was good. Jones played a lot because of injuries.