Fire Capers

[Pokerbrat2000]

To delve a little deeper into that issue if we're talking TT and players needed there is a huge difference between need and availability. That goes for the draft as well. There just isn't always the player out there available who meets our specific need when we need it. There's a trade issue if you consider who to give up if such player happens to be available. Then there's finances. That's the business end of things. I think unfortunately sometimes it's a situation of Dom saying hey, Ted I could use a few CBs please and Ted saying OK let me pull them out of my magic hat.

That's part of the reason it's so hard to get into the upper echelon of teams and not only that remain there consistently. Acquiring players and addressing needs where availability is an issue is an extremely hard job.

I agree and Granted, Mike McCarthy has been fortunate to have AR, but offensively, the Packers seem to stay pretty solid. Despite the last 5 years of drafting being more geared towards building a solid defense and picking near the end of each round. Capers has Matthews, Peppers and Daniels, yet he doesn't seem to have the other guys or the ability to put all the pieces together.

So yes, its hard staying at the top but drafting isn't the only tool TT should be using and that IMO is where his biggest weakness as a GM is, relying to heavily on draft and develop. Sure its the financially prudent way to build a team in the age of the cap, but sticking too close to it, can keep you one or two players away from being THAT team.

 

[Kitten]

I agree and Granted, Mike McCarthy has been fortunate to have AR, but offensively, the Packers seem to stay pretty solid. Despite the last 5 years of drafting being more geared towards building a solid defense and picking near the end of each round. Capers has Matthews, Peppers and Daniels, yet he doesn't seem to have the other guys or the ability put all the pieces together.

So yes, its hard staying at the top but drafting isn't the only tool TT should be using and that IMO is where his biggest weakness as a GM is, relying to heavily on draft and develop. Sure its the financially prudent way to build a team in the age of the cap, but sticking too close to it, can keep you one or two players away from being THAT team.

Agreed once again. I think he's too draft and develop heavy too. That can change but we've got these guys here already... May as well develop them. I'd like to see him get into the trade market maybe even bite on an FA.

In the draft I'd like to see him get a bit more aggressive maybe trade up for someone.

But, bottom line is I personally don't see TT making too many big moves with staff or players aside from moves on D. This team did manage to get itself into the NFC Championship game somehow. I'm not seeing an overhaul on any level.

 

[Un4GivN]

I'm not saying a fresh DC couldn't do better. But the talent on the corners is abysmal. Like historically bad, I think you could have replaced Dom for Wade Philips and it wouldn't have made much of difference. Just like you can't make Cleveland a prolific offense with RGIII at quarterback.

I think it's easy to blame Capers, and I wouldn't complain if they decided to ax him. But he had nothing to do with Randall looking like he couldn't cover a pee wee league wide receiver. Or Gunter completely losing track of Julio. Lack of talent is the biggest deficiency right now.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not saying a fresh DC couldn't do better. But the talent on the corners is abysmal. Like historically bad, I think you could have replaced Dom for Wade Philips and it wouldn't have made much of difference. Just like you can't make Cleveland a prolific offense with RGIII at quarterback.

I think it's easy to blame Capers, and I wouldn't complain if they decided to ax him. But he had nothing to do with Randall looking like he couldn't cover a pee wee league wide receiver. Or Gunter completely losing track of Julio. Lack of talent is the biggest deficiency right now.

While I agree with this in part, I am starting to think that Capers and his coaches are not preparing their players properly. This isn't just about technique, speed or concepts, its also about coaching guys to the level that they are at. How many times did you see guys looking lost, out of position or scrambling around right before the snap? So unless Capers is being fed a bunch of brainless twits, which I don't think he is, his defenses often times look confused, lost on the field and lacking technique. Lack of talent or poor coaching? I think a combination of both.

 

[HardRightEdge]

While I agree with this in part, I am starting to think that Capers and his coaches are not preparing their players properly. This isn't just about technique, speed or concepts, its more about coaching guys to the level that they are at. How many times did you see guys looking lost, out of position or scrambling around right before the snap? So unless Capers is being fed a bunch of brainless twits, which I don't think he is, his defenses often times look confused and lost on the field. Lack of talent or poor coaching? I think a combination of both.

It comes down to Capers having weak zone concepts.

 

[Un4GivN]

While I agree with this in part, I am starting to think that Capers and his coaches are not preparing their players properly. This isn't just about technique, speed or concepts, its also about coaching guys to the level that they are at. How many times did you see guys looking lost, out of position or scrambling around right before the snap? So unless Capers is being fed a bunch of brainless twits, which I don't think he is, his defenses often times look confused, lost on the field and lacking technique. Lack of talent or poor coaching? I think a combination of both.

HaHa, Daniels, Burnett are having top 5 at their position type years. Perry had his best year as a Packers. So does that mean Capers can only teach safeties and D Tackles and sometimes linebackers?

What I am saying, is that maybe he isn't cutting edge. But no defense he designs has players getting turned around 19 times a game by wide receivers. That stems from the fact that Randall has no idea how to play corner, and his change of direction speed is horrendous.

I really do believe that he is being fed some talent that shouldn't be in the NFL even as a back-up and being forced to start them. Randall, Rollins, and Gunter allowed 113, 133, 112 passer rating to opposing QB's. Do you really believe that if Sherman or Norman or even C-Wood in his prime was under Capers that they would have allowed the same type of numbers?

Here's the article.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-packers-need-to-solve-their-secondary-issues-this-offseason/

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So can you tell me that Capers, the same man that coached them last year. Forgot how to coach and made all three of them worse this year? OR is it more likely that Shields is more talented then all of them combined and that hid the lack of talent behind him?

You can't scheme the Browns to the Super Bowl. You can't scheme a way for me to cover Julio. Talent > Scheme

Like I said I would have no love lost if they fire Capers. I wish we could have gotten Dave Aranda personally. But if you ask me the talent is what is lacking on defense. Firing Capers is OK with me, as long as they give the next person some talent to work with.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

HaHa, Daniels, Burnett are having top 5 at their position type years. Perry had his best year as a Packers. So does that mean Capers can only teach safeties and D Tackles and sometimes linebackers?

What I am saying, is that maybe he isn't cutting edge. But no defense he designs has players getting turned around 19 times a game by wide receivers. That stems from the fact that Randall has no idea how to play corner, and his change of direction speed is horrendous.

I really do believe that he is being fed some talent that shouldn't be in the NFL even as a back-up and being forced to start them. Randall, Rollins, and Gunter allowed 113, 133, 112 passer rating to opposing QB's. Do you really believe that if Sherman or Norman or even C-Wood in his prime was under Capers that they would have allowed the same type of numbers?

Here's the article.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-packers-need-to-solve-their-secondary-issues-this-offseason/

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

So can you tell me that Capers, the same man that coached them last year. Forgot how to coach and made all three of them worse this year? OR is it more likely that Shields is more talented then all of them combined and that hid the lack of talent behind him?

You can't scheme the Browns to the Super Bowl. You can't scheme a way for me to cover Julio. Talent > Scheme

Like I said I would have no love lost if they fire Capers. I wish we could have gotten Dave Aranda personally. But if you ask me the talent is what is lacking on defense. Firing Capers is OK with me, as long as they give the next person some talent to work with.

I know you can't keep track of all my threads or totally understand my viewpoint from the one thread, but I am not disagreeing with you on the fact that a lot of the "talent" Capers has had to work with is lacking. I have always stated that this is a 3 headed issue. Starts with TT and the players he gives Capers to work with.......Shifts to Capers/staff and what they are able to do with that "talent".......Finally, the players themselves.....which is really full circle back to TT. Ultimately you can't fire half the defense, at least right away, but you can replace them piece by piece. So who replaces them with the right players? TT? Not sure he is doing such a good job of that. Who coaches the players? Capers? While Capers is a brilliant defensive mind, I'm not so sure he is the guy who should be doing it anymore. Seems like this is where you bring in a fresh mind and energy, you mentioned Dave Aranda....perfect choice. But if we want an improved defense, TT needs to be gone or figure out other ways to give a DC better players to work with. Whether that is through improved scouting, the Free agent market or trades.

People used to argue here that our defense was good or at least good enough, that discussion seems to have dissipated. Hard to deny the fact that the Packers would be prepping for the Super Bowl if they had a top 15 defense. Improving that defense should be off season goal #1 and its this posters opinion that has to start with a new DC as well as a modified approach by the existing GM or a new GM to bring in some better talent.

 

[Mondio]

and people can blame ted, but you have to be mindful of what the situation was/is/will be. I find it improbable for a team to find 3 of it's highly paid performers to not perform and couple it with all the injury we've had and still field dominating type defense. Matthews, Peppers, and Shields showed up very little this year. They had moments, but they aren't paid for moments. BUT when they were signed, it made sense and getting rid of them last year would not have. They limit what we can do on defense. Toss in a season of injury and revolving doors all over the backfield and at the LB'er position. Everyone wants to crucify the DB's, and I agree, they deserve a ton of criticism, but there's other guys up front that generated **** all for pressure when they needed to do it most too. At least our DB's are cheap, other than Sam who did nothing for us. teams don't just have these things happen and move on without a hiccup.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

and people can blame ted, but you have to be mindful of what the situation was/is/will be. I find it improbable for a team to find 3 of it's highly paid performers to not perform and couple it with all the injury we've had and still field dominating type defense. Matthews, Peppers, and Shields showed up very little this year. They had moments, but they aren't paid for moments. BUT when they were signed, it made sense and getting rid of them last year would not have. They limit what we can do on defense. Toss in a season of injury and revolving doors all over the backfield and at the LB'er position. Everyone wants to crucify the DB's, and I agree, they deserve a ton of criticism, but there's other guys up front that generated **** all for pressure when they needed to do it most too. At least our DB's are cheap, other than Sam who did nothing for us. teams don't just have these things happen and move on without a hiccup.

OK...that sort of works for explaining one year, but how about the other years of a sub par defense? I was on board with that kind of thinking, but how long do you give Capers and TT to figure out how to build a strong defense?

7 playoff loses since 2009....The defense has given up an average of 36.29 points/game.

 

[Mondio]

I don't know, I'd have to look at each year on it's own. But we all know how 1 guy can make a big difference. Just lookat the seahawks, the model we should emulate according to some. 1 guy from their defense and it's drastically different. Well, that's where i see us or saw us anyway.

But saying Ted can't give a guy the players? I think that is such a bunch of crap i don't even know where to begin. Sure he's missed on guys, show me someone that hasn't. But Matthews, Raji, Collins, Williams, Shields, Daniels, Perry, Hyde, Burnett etc tell me otherwise. I can see why he drafted datone, as he's flashed, but sometimes they flash and never pan out. it happens. It's a miss, but it's not like he moved up to take Johnny Manzel or something. when he took a guy like Worthy from MI State, I was pumped, that guy looked like a beast in college. I imagine a lot of other fans thought so too, but Ted is the bum for picking him these days if you ask anyone.

I have to say i'm growing tired of capers led defenses too, but then I think, when did Dom forget how to coach a defense? and how do you do it when Matthews, Peppers and Shields are not contributing anything close to what they're supposed to and then you have a flux of youth and injury all over the field all season long. Just the last game we lost a 1st safety off the bench, our best DB/safety and our starting ILB. Seahawks lose 1 guy and it's a travesty.

so i'm not sure what to think. We all saw why Perry was picked, he was always hurt. Is that Ted or dom's fault? does it mean Ted can't find talent? Does it mean Dom can't coach it? Lots of years, lots of scenarios

 

[TommyD]

I am not disagreeing with much stated here except not to get rid of Capers and his defensive staff. The secondary is the worst I've seen in years, even if they are 2nd and 3rd string. Have you seen any team getting torched like the Packers secondary this year. The entire secondary should be nicknamed toast.

I watch a lot of football every week and cannot remember any team with a secondary this bad including the tackling by the entire defense. They may as well become bullfighters, just give them a cape.

No team is perfect. No player is perfect, but unless this team finds good potential in the offseason the results won't change.

Do you think that since this is the only publicly owned team that it is more difficult to fire coaches?

 

[HardRightEdge]

It's not about this year. It's about years of under performance.

 

[Mondio]

i know the points per game is up there, but I think the body of work is all over the place. Ideally, he'd like a fast attacking defense that specializes in getting the ball back to our offense off turnovers, doesn't care a ton about yards and limits points. maybe that defense won't work with youth and a steady rotation because of injury pretty much a given these days. I know the 9er games get put up a lot as reasons he should be gone. The 1st one, i'm not sure about, i would say they definitely looked ill prepared, but maybe they just didn't believe in what they were being told. That 2nd game we played them, we had as big or bigger of a mash unit than we had this year and if a rookie Hyde keeps his hands on the ball, we win that game.

I just don't know. I know the guy knows defense. I can also see it hasn't worked very well recently going from the classroom to the playing field. But then in our biggest games, our biggest names have failed to produce or failed to be available, and how much do I want to hold Dom responsible for that? I struggle with this

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's not about this year. It's about years of under performance.

That is exactly where I am at. People all over this sight are pissing and moaning about how we only have 1 SB ring with Rodgers. Well, when your defense gives up 36.29 points on average in 7 playoff losses under Rodgers, I don't care if Brady, Ryan, or God himself is behind center, its really hard to win those games. Not to mention, you are probably facing good defenses in those playoff games to boot.

 

[azrsx05]

It's not about this year. It's about years of under performance.

That's what I've said.

He basically has a completely new crew since I started this thread and Capers defenses continue to suck hard. They always seem to get exposed in the playoffs even worse. You can only give a guy so many chances. Sure this year is probably the worst he's had. But his scheme is just plain terrible. His blitzes are predictable.

Now with that being said. They better not even think about bringing back Peppers, Shields and D Jones.

Mathews needs a nice talk from the coaches and either he renegotiates his contract or try and trade him or 2017 will be his last year in GB.

They need to draft some play maker guys. Not some nobody guy that has never even played against big schools and actually proved himself in college.

Whether Ted wants or not. He needs to address the needs on defense through FAs. Ryan and Martinez showed a little promise. But those guys are not the answer for the middle. I think the CBs can be fixed with better scheming and a Dline who doesn't sit there and plays party cake with the Oline.

Lastly. I wake up every day hoping to get some type of alert saying Capers has been fired and Ted has decided to retire. Both guys have served their purpose. Time for new blood

 

[adambr2]

Sometimes you just have to admit the guy you got just ain't a good fit for who you have anymore. This was Capers' 8th playoff appearance. It's not just the personnel. He's had many different personnel over 8 seasons. He's given up 51, 38, 45, 44. His D's have never allowed less than 23 in their last playoff game of the year, including the winning Super Bowl. At some point you gotta recognize, this isn't the guy you want leading the defensive troops in January anymore. It's a tried and true failing system at this point.

 

[pacmaniac]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again [keeping Capers year after year], but expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

 

[Vince Lombardi]

http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/green-...capers?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

This article hits it right on the head.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/green-...capers?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

This article hits it right on the head.

Thanks for posting that, lots of great stuff in there!

I've said this part (below) time and again, while Dom Capers is the fall guy here for the defensive woes, TT has to be held accountable too. Whether that is showing TT the door or just convincing him to change his ways, I don't know what will be done, if anything.

"Thompson has a habit of selecting players who are outstanding athletes or "football players," even when they might not necessarily be the best fit for Green Bay's and Capers' scheme, and that's certainly necessary to consider when evaluating Capers' job performance. "

 

[Mondio]

can't win. Draft a guy who's NFL ready, solid NFL player like Hawk and it's not good enough. Draft an athlete with a higher upside, but has to learn a few things, and it's not good enough either. This also supposes none of the youth on this team turn into anything. I still think at least Rollins will be next year's adams. I think he's mentally fit and needs his physical health. I think Randall has to fix somethings upstairs and could be a star. But we'll see.

I can't imagine picking football players is a bad thing. If your scheme can't use football players, it's crap. Micah Hyde is exactly that type of player and if he can't be valuable to a defense, you need a new defense. I think Randall and Rollins both have a much higher potential. From the very first roughing the passer call against Perry against the Colts his rookie year, you could see what he had and then he was injured for a long time. People still want to say he wasn't the right pick for this defense. I say bull. Give me a guy that can hold the edge like a bull and push the pocket back like one too any freaking day. Especially when I have a hair on fire guy on the other side like Matthews. The problem is, one was hurt too often to do much good and when he got mostly healthy and had his best season, the other guy had one good shoulder and was on the decline too.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

can't win. Draft a guy who's NFL ready, solid NFL player like Hawk and it's not good enough. Draft an athlete with a higher upside, but has to learn a few things, and it's not good enough either. This also supposes none of the youth on this team turn into anything. I still think at least Rollins will be next year's adams. I think he's mentally fit and needs his physical health. I think Randall has to fix somethings upstairs and could be a star. But we'll see.

I can't imagine picking football players is a bad thing. If your scheme can't use football players, it's crap. Micah Hyde is exactly that type of player and if he can't be valuable to a defense, you need a new defense. I think Randall and Rollins both have a much higher potential. From the very first roughing the passer call against Perry against the Colts his rookie year, you could see what he had and then he was injured for a long time. People still want to say he wasn't the right pick for this defense. I say bull. Give me a guy that can hold the edge like a bull and push the pocket back like one too any freaking day. Especially when I have a hair on fire guy on the other side like Matthews. The problem is, one was hurt too often to do much good and when he got mostly healthy and had his best season, the other guy had one good shoulder and was on the decline too.

While I agree with you, I think where TT slips up a bit is relying on and picking too many "football players" or development guys. While that is fine for a backup role in their first 2 years, very few of them can jump right in and start effectively. So yes, the draft and develop philosophy can work on a percentage of success basis, but when you have a position of need and can only try and fill it with guys who are in that development phase, the results are what we saw at the CB position this year. Look at the TE position ever since Finley's injury. TT kept trying to fill it with development guys. 3 years of failure. He picks up a guy like Cook and position covered. Now I know you can't afford a 53 man roster of starters and injuries are going to expose a position that is thin in experience and talent, as we saw at CB, but there are other ways to patch that leaking boat and TT didn't.

 

[Vince Lombardi]

can't win. Draft a guy who's NFL ready, solid NFL player like Hawk and it's not good enough. Draft an athlete with a higher upside, but has to learn a few things, and it's not good enough either. This also supposes none of the youth on this team turn into anything. I still think at least Rollins will be next year's adams. I think he's mentally fit and needs his physical health. I think Randall has to fix somethings upstairs and could be a star. But we'll see.

I can't imagine picking football players is a bad thing. If your scheme can't use football players, it's crap. Micah Hyde is exactly that type of player and if he can't be valuable to a defense, you need a new defense. I think Randall and Rollins both have a much higher potential. From the very first roughing the passer call against Perry against the Colts his rookie year, you could see what he had and then he was injured for a long time. People still want to say he wasn't the right pick for this defense. I say bull. Give me a guy that can hold the edge like a bull and push the pocket back like one too any freaking day. Especially when I have a hair on fire guy on the other side like Matthews. The problem is, one was hurt too often to do much good and when he got mostly healthy and had his best season, the other guy had one good shoulder and was on the decline too.

This is what I struggle with also. If Ted is picking "outstanding athletes" or football players why can't Capers fit them into his scheme. or adjust his scheme to fit the talent he has? That is the sign of a great coach, figure out what you have and adjust your schemes accordingly. I just can't believe that Ted has drafted all these turds that can't play. While I'm not a big Ted Thompson fan and wouldn't be upset if he was gone, I believe Capers probably needs to go.

 

[bigbubbatd]

This is what I struggle with also. If Ted is picking "outstanding athletes" or football players why can't Capers fit them into his scheme. or adjust his scheme to fit the talent he has? That is the sign of a great coach, figure out what you have and adjust your schemes accordingly. I just can't believe that Ted has drafted all these turds that can't play. While I'm not a big Ted Thompson fan and wouldn't be upset if he was gone, I believe Capers probably needs to go.

The other question is when was the last athlete capers was able to develop? It seems like our better defenders are usually guys who were already very good footballer players but not crazy athletes - Daniels, Ryan, Burnett, hyde etc. Guys who are more athletes or needed to grow into a position - Jones, Rollins, Randall, etc have not developed. If we are draft and develop some more guys who come in as projects should develop

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The other question is when was the last athlete capers was able to develop? It seems like our better defenders are usually guys who were already very good footballer players but not crazy athletes - Daniels, Ryan, Burnett, hyde etc. Guys who are more athletes or needed to grow into a position - Jones, Rollins, Randall, etc have not developed. If we are draft and develop some more guys who come in as projects should develop

Sam Shields may be one of TT's best finds that falls into this category. Shields had only played one year at CB in college and was an UDFA project that turned out really well. Interesting enough, probably the only reason Shields wasn't drafted was an arrest for possession of marijuana right before the draft.

 

[Un4GivN]

Too many people act like the defense is the sole reason the Packers lost. You have to also remember the Packers scored ZERO points on offense in the first half. ZERO. Lost time of possession 19-11. First half drives consisted of missed field goal, fumble, punt, interception. It's not like they helped the Defense out at all.

The Seahawks had a top 5 total defense, and "limited" Atlanta to 36 points just the week before. Arizona's #2 defense limited them to 38. Atlanta is good, give them credit.

I am not saying the Packers defense didn't crap the bed, but the offense under-performed just as badly. And in the end I was more disappointed by offenses lack of blocking and execution because I expect them to do well. Where I expected Randall to get torched. There was a zero percent chance that 21 point by our offense could win that game.

Back to Capers, I agree with the basic premise of inserting a fresh guy just to give some energy to the team. Just not convinced that in this game especially, any defensive coordinator could have hid the Packers glaring deficiencies on the outside.