Comparing 2008 Packers Roster vs 2023 Packers Roster

PikeBadger

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I guess really it all depends on how you want to define "bust" and the things you include or don't include in that definition. I also wouldn't necessarily attach a "fault" label with the definition, but use the reasons the pick was a bust, as footnotes. Perhaps a career ending injury prevented them from ever playing, not their fault, but since the Packers got nothing, after investing something (draft pick and money), I would contend those picks busted out.

I view Henry Ruggs as a total bust for the Raiders, some may say "had he not driven that car at high speeds, he would have been a great player." Right, but he didn't and he wasn't. Yes, he put himself in that position, but he also could have been in an accident that wasn't his fault, yet it took away his ability to ever play again.
Same with Mossy Cade. Bad decision making needs to be part of the equation.
 

PikeBadger

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That is a very fair analysis. The great Paul Hornung said many years after Lombardi that of those teams Herb Adderley and Forrest Gregg would have gone on to greatness and the HOF. But as for the rest of us, we needed Lombardi. It is great coaching that makes average players good and good players great.
Paul would have known. I consider that Packer gospel.

On an interesting side note, I believe it was he that said that on Sunday afternoon, Vince Lombardi was the most useless person on the Packers sideline. "All he did was holler at people". Lombardi did his coaching from Monday to Saturday.
 

PikeBadger

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So my buddy and I going into this draft had a discussion last two decades who our top ten worst picks were:

Small discussion on my picks...to me to even be considered you gotta be a 3rd rounder or higher. Zero reasons to hold issues with someone after that....even third is tough but I get it:

I found my list I built of guys to even consider:

Kenny Peterson DT 2003 3rd Rounder
Joey Thomas DB 2004 3rd Rounder
Terrence Murphy WR 2005 2nd Rounder
Justin Harrell DT 2007 1st Rounder
Brian Brohm QB 2008 2nd Rounder
Pat Lee DB 2008 2nd Rounder
Derek Sherrod OT 2011 1st Rounder
Alex Green RB 2011 3rd Rounder
Jerel Worthy DT 2012 2nd rounder
Datone Jones DE 2013 1st rounder
Khyri Thornton DT 2014 3rd rounder
Demarious Randall DB 2015 1st rounder
Quinten Rollins DB 2015 2nd rounder
Jason Spriggs OT 2016 2nd rounder
Josh Jones S 2017 2nd rounder
Josh Jackson DB 2018 2nd rounder
Amari Rodgers WR 2021 3rd rounder

Then my personal list starting with the "best of the ten - to the worst"

10-Josh Jones S 2017 2nd rounder
9-Brian Brohm QB 2008 2nd Rounder
8-Derek Sherrod OT 2011 1st Rounder *his injury sucks and has to be considered and held against him at some point....
7-Quinten Rollins DB 2015 2nd rounder
6-Josh Jackson DB 2018 2nd rounder
5-Terrence Murphy WR 2005 2nd Rounder
4-Demarious Randall DB 2015 1st rounder
3-Jason Spriggs OT 2016 2nd rounder
2-Datone Jones DE 2013 1st rounder
1-Justin Harrell DT 2007 1st Rounder
I view it differently. I think bust is more of a reflection on the GM/coaching than the player/person. That is why Harrell and Murphy wouldn't make my list.

I consider guys like Randall, Raji and Hayward a total indictment of Capers. I still believe Raji was potentially a HOF caliber player with the right coaches.

I'd put Dix and Savage on my list for sure. No better than a 4th round talent imo.

Burks would make my list as well.

Lee, Worthy and Amari Rodgers would make my top 10.
 

mradtke66

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I consider guys like Randall, Raji and Hayward a total indictment of Capers. I still believe Raji was potentially a HOF caliber player with the right coaches.

Randall I 100% would put on the list. One can argue that he was played out of position, though I'm not sure. My understanding is the college he played for put their best DB at FS. Period. (Not unlike how many best OL become their team's LT, even if they are natural guards.) And in that scheme, was asked to man up against slot corners a lot. Moving to CB was not as big a stretch as previously indicated.

I'd put Dix and Savage on my list for sure. No better than a 4th round talent imo.

I'd like to know how you'd differentiate Dix and Randall. Dix lasted longer in the league and had better stats.

Burks would make my list as well.

Lee, Worthy and Amari Rodgers would make my top 10.
I'd still put Brian Brohm higher. For as bad as many of those players are/were, we at least got snaps from them. Was Brohm ever even active for us?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Same with Mossy Cade. Bad decision making needs to be part of the equation.
Ah yes....Good old Mossy Cade and James Lofton, both getting charged with ****** crimes. Lofton acquitted and Cade getting a 2 year sentence. I don't think the Packers invested much in Cade and he turned out to not be all that good.

I also remember times were different back in that period of history, both guys kept playing, while their cases went through the courts. Lofton was traded to the Raiders for peanuts and Cade was cut once convicted.
 
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tynimiller

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I view it differently. I think bust is more of a reflection on the GM/coaching than the player/person. That is why Harrell and Murphy wouldn't make my list.

I consider guys like Randall, Raji and Hayward a total indictment of Capers. I still believe Raji was potentially a HOF caliber player with the right coaches.

I'd put Dix and Savage on my list for sure. No better than a 4th round talent imo.

Burks would make my list as well.

Lee, Worthy and Amari Rodgers would make my top 10.

I get the take from your perspective for sure but just don’t entirely agree but get it.
 
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One positive is they will all grow together - either up or down. This is one of the more interesting seasons for us if we think about it. Nobody knows what we have, especially offensively. I too think Dillion and Jones are superior. Heck, they may be one of the top RB tandems in the league right now. I hope MLF puts both of them out their together more than he has in the past. Give DC's more to worry about.

Bill Barnwell ranked all 32 groups of wide receivers, running backs and tight ends in the league entering this season, the Packers are ranked 28th.


I'd still put Brian Brohm higher. For as bad as many of those players are/were, we at least got snaps from them. Was Brohm ever even active for us?

No, Brohm was never active in a regular season game for the Packers.
 
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Bill Barnwell ranked all 32 groups of wide receivers, running backs and tight ends in the league entering this season, the Packers are ranked 28th.
That sounds about right to me. We rank highly at RB, but both WR and TE are largely unknown. Although I would not at all be surprised if our #28 ranked group is top 20 by the seasons end.
One hypothesis of mine is that one of our Rookie TE’s impresses beyond what we are expecting. It’s looking more and more like Luke Musgrave is our version of a young Jimmy Graham (without Brees) but Luke could even see more action than Rookie Graham. It’s not a coincidence Matt is lining Musgrave up with the First team, he’s a premier athlete.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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That sounds about right to me. We rank highly at RB, but both WR and TE are largely unknown. Although I would not at all be surprised if our #28 ranked group is top 20 by the seasons end.
One hypothesis of mine is that one of our Rookie TE’s impresses beyond what we are expecting. It’s looking more and more like Luke Musgrave is our version of a young Jimmy Graham (without Brees) but Luke could even see more action than Rookie Graham. It’s not a coincidence Matt is lining Musgrave up with the First team, he’s a premier athlete.
There is really nowhere to go but up for our TE's and WR's. Has to be the youngest group in the NFL, couple that with Love becoming the starting QB and you have a lot of mystery meat. As far as Musgrave taking snaps with the first team, it might be because MLF really sees something in him, but I think it also has something to due with the competition for the job, being less than stellar. I would love Deguara to have a breakout season, but I would say the odds are higher, if Musgrave and Kraft stay healthy, that by the end of the season, we don't see much of Josiah on offense.
 
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There is really nowhere to go but up for our TE's and WR's. Has to be the youngest group in the NFL, couple that with Love becoming the starting QB and you have a lot of mystery meat. As far as Musgrave taking snaps with the first team, it might be because MLF really sees something in him, but I think it also has something to due with the competition for the job, being less than stellar. I would love Deguara to have a breakout season, but I would say the odds are higher, if Musgrave and Kraft stay healthy, that by the end of the season, we don't see much of Josiah on offense.
That and this years TE group (Musgrave primarily) has the most upside as any we’ve seen in many moons.
Obviously we just spent a #42 overall on a TE, which is pretty rare around GB. When we factor in Luke’s relative lack of college production,(for several reasons) it spells high upside. Our scouts are extremely impressed with Luke’s college film albeit limited. Not any more limited than Jimmy Graham college film though. I use Graham as a comparison because JG profiles very similar (negating his NFL production). Both have Athleticism, limited college Production, Size. My primary concern with Musgrave is can he stay healthy? If he stays on the field he’s going to be a menace to LB’s. Notice his
10 yard (1.54)
20 yard (2.62)
Broad (125”)
He’s also not exactly slow when up to speed at 4.61 which is a hair behind rookie Graham at 4.56 long speed
A premier TE is still slightly under appreciated by many teams. It’s a force of recognition if you land a great one. It’s also the ideal answer for an overly aggressive or overly committed Defensive Box. If he gets hit up seam full steam into a light backfield? expect a lone 6’X200lb Safety trying to tackle 6’6” 253lb straight arm going full stride with lots of daylight shining down.
 
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That sounds about right to me. We rank highly at RB, but both WR and TE are largely unknown. Although I would not at all be surprised if our #28 ranked group is top 20 by the seasons end.

I agree that the wide receivers and tight ends could end up being better than where they're ranked at this point. There's no way of knowing how they will develop over the course of the season.
 
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I agree that the wide receivers and tight ends could end up being better than where they're ranked at this point. There's no way of knowing how they will develop over the course of the season.
True. The distinction at TE this season is we don’t have a choice. Rookies will get forced into live game action in sink or swim fashion.

Personally I don’t believe that “Rookies can’t produce” as much as we don’t ask them to very often.
So our opinion is somewhat skewed by rookie TE non production that resulted more from lack of usage, not lack of ability.

Jimmy Graham came into the NFL as essentially a basketball player. You don’t get less college football inexperience than him (1 season) Yet he started Day1 with a 70% catch rate. He finished with 356 yards and 5 TD on minuscule targets (44). He only was listed as a starter in 5 contests. What would’ve happened if he started in 10 contests? I’d easily take the 2023 TE group over the 2008 version of Donald Lee, Jermichael Finley and Tory Humphrey, whose cumulative effort was 539 yards. Cmon.
 
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tynimiller

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I'll go on record saying if Musgrave leads the team in TE snaps in 15 or so games - I guarantee 400+ yards and am about 90% confident it means 500+ yards of production.

If you told me he is our TE1 as the snaps indicated above, I would place more money on him doing what we haven't had since Jimmy Graham and before him you have to go clear back to J Fin..... and that is over 600 yards.

Yes, I went there.

Personally, I think it is going to be a by committee approach and I think Deguara may lead the team in snaps out the gate for the TE room.
 

Poppa San

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Personally, I think it is going to be a by committee approach and I think Deguara may lead the team in snaps out the gate for the TE room.
I expect a lot of balanced looks on offense. 2TE, 2WR, 1RB. Deguara will be in the backfield often as a lead blocker. Maybe as the only "back" if AJ33 splits wide in some formations.
 
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tynimiller

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I expect a lot of balanced looks on offense. 2TE, 2WR, 1RB. Deguara will be in the backfield often as a lead blocker. Maybe as the only "back" if AJ33 splits wide in some formations.

Deguara is going to be all over if I'm a betting man I think in just one series at times he'll be in backfield, in slot, double stacked and in line....
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Deguara is going to be all over if I'm a betting man I think in just one series at times he'll be in backfield, in slot, double stacked and in line....
You forgot...on the sidelines ;)

I know that we differ on our opinion of Deguara and I really hope yours is the correct one. I just haven't seen any thing that special from him and Gute did just spend 2 high picks on TE's. If both Kraft and Musgrave perform up to expectations, Josiah might be on a new team, sooner, rather than later. That said, I think/hope that having Love strictly running the MLF offense, he may have more success than when Rodgers was the QB.
 
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tynimiller

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You forgot...on the sidelines ;)

I know that we differ on our opinion of Deguara and I really hope yours is the correct one. I just haven't seen any thing that special from him and Gute did just spend 2 high picks on TE's. If both Kraft and Musgrave perform up to expectations, Josiah might be on a new team, sooner, rather than later. That said, I think/hope that having Love strictly running the MLF offense, he may have more success than when Rodgers was the QB.

Deguara's presence wasn't a factor for or against the drafting plans. We lost Lewis and Tonyan, reinforcements in a strong way were needed even if Deguara had led the room in snaps, yards and touchdowns.
 

milani

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True. The distinction at TE this season is we don’t have a choice. Rookies will get forced into live game action in sink or swim fashion.

Personally I don’t believe that “Rookies can’t produce” as much as we don’t ask them to very often.
So our opinion is somewhat skewed by rookie TE non production that resulted more from lack of usage, not lack of ability.

Jimmy Graham came into the NFL as essentially a basketball player. You don’t get less college football inexperience than him (1 season) Yet he started Day1 with a 70% catch rate. He finished with 356 yards and 5 TD on minuscule targets (44). He only was listed as a starter in 5 contests. What would’ve happened if he started in 10 contests? I’d easily take the 2023 TE group over the 2008 version of Donald Lee, Jermichael Finley and Tory Humphrey, whose cumulative effort was 539 yards. Cmon.
Now contrast the 2007 TE group which was almost exclusively Donald Lee. The team had over 700 yards at that position and a good number of TDs. Appeared that they did not use Finley enough in 2008. Maybe he was not ready.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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if Deguara had led the room in snaps, yards and touchdowns.

But he didn't and an average TE (Tonyan) and 38 year old that had 6 total receptions did, that alone tells you something about Deguara. Tonyan was on the field for 54% of the offensive snaps, Lewis (41%), Deguara (24%) and Davis (16%).

Yes, losing those 2 guys created an immediate need for 2 TE's, one that I don't think Gute saw Deguara filling.
 
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tynimiller

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But he didn't and an average TE (Tonyan) and 38 year old that had 6 total receptions did, that alone tells you something about Deguara. Tonyan was on the field for 54% of the offensive snaps, Lewis (41%), Deguara (24%) and Davis (16%).

Yes, losing those 2 guys created an immediate need for 2 TE's, one that I don't think Gute saw Deguara filling.

Rodgers did not like Deguara. It was VERY apparent and clear.
 

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Randall I 100% would put on the list. One can argue that he was played out of position, though I'm not sure. My understanding is the college he played for put their best DB at FS. Period. (Not unlike how many best OL become their team's LT, even if they are natural guards.) And in that scheme, was asked to man up against slot corners a lot. Moving to CB was not as big a stretch as previously indicated.



I'd like to know how you'd differentiate Dix and Randall. Dix lasted longer in the league and had better stats.


I'd still put Brian Brohm higher. For as bad as many of those players are/were, we at least got snaps from them. Was Brohm ever even active for us?
1. Yeah, I think Randall probably belongs on the list too even though I think he should've been a safety.

2. Dix was pick 20 in his draft. He always looked to me like a 3rd round talent at best.

3. I never mentioned Brohm but he would be in my top 3 for sure.
 

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I thought Randall showed he clearly had the talent to play the position and play it well. He didn't have what it took upstairs though to do it consistently as part of a team.
 
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True. The distinction at TE this season is we don’t have a choice. Rookies will get forced into live game action in sink or swim fashion.

Personally I don’t believe that “Rookies can’t produce” as much as we don’t ask them to very often.
So our opinion is somewhat skewed by rookie TE non production that resulted more from lack of usage, not lack of ability.

Tight ends having a hard time making an impact during the rookie season happens with every team around the league though. I don't expect Musgrave and Tucker to be any different.

Deguara's presence wasn't a factor for or against the drafting plans. We lost Lewis and Tonyan, reinforcements in a strong way were needed even if Deguara had led the room in snaps, yards and touchdowns.

I'm convinced the Packers wouldn't have spent two picks on tight ends in the first three rounds of the draft if they believed Deguara would be able to develop into a decent #1 or even #2 on the depth chart.
 

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