What ya think about TT???

[TJV]

Seriously, you are going to judge TT's running game over 7 years, by what Lacy has done in 9 games.

No, that'd be as stupid as ignoring what Thompson has accomplished at Green Bay as noted in ivo610's and my posts above. And it would be as stupid as hating Thompson and impugning his personal reputation because he wasn't as foolishly devoted to your hero as you are. ... ... Oh wait, that's what you do.

Those posting that the success of the 2010 defense was based upon the play of Aaron Rodgers are deluded IMO. Like it or not, and incredibly some "Packers fans" appear not to like it, Thompson built a deep and talented Super Bowl winning team.

And for those posting that Rodgers is the only reason for Thompson's success, keep in mind, some of you, like this biased poster complained bitterly that Thompson picked him (‘weapons for Favre, weapons for Favre!’) and would have jettisoned him in favor of keeping an old, cold, interceptions-at-crucial-moments-in-big-games machine.

 

[Bus Cook]

So Bus, we can judge TT negatively due to 5 games, but can't judge him positively due to 9 games?

Believe me, I know that I've been a TT hater from day one, and that I am in the significant minority. Even I have some nice things to say about him (none come to mind now), but I am not one to judge him the way I do based on 5 games. I would say that he has NEVER assembled an Oline and for the last 20+ years, our franchise has had the highest valued QBs. I view this as benign neglect and shameful. Related to that, over TT 8 years we have not had much of a running game (Lacy may be, but not yet. Rashan Sallom (sic) had a good first year in Chicago). Our defense had been pitiful for far more than 5 games, as has special teams. If you are talking results, our last three years inthe playoffs are one and done, one then done and done. Sorry, my opinion is not limited to a 5 game review.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's say one or two years after a draft class is too early to deem many high picks a bust. Some picks are looking good like Lacy, Bahktiari, maybe Lattimore, and Hayward (assuming his hamstring ends up healing eventually). Yes, I'm a saying some guys are good early, but for now they are good.

Well, the problem though is that most of the draft picks from 2011 and 2012 aren´t on the team anymore (only 8 of 18). I think Lacy was a great pick (although it seems like TT tried to trade out of it). Don´t agree on Bakthiari though. He has done a decent job of filling in for Bulaga at LT as a fourth-round pick, but he´s one of the worst LTs in the league, especially in run blocking.

 

[Carl]

Believe me, I know that I've been a TT hater from day one, and that I am in the significant minority. Even I have some nice things to say about him (none come to mind now), but I am not one to judge him the way I do based on 5 games. I would say that he has NEVER assembled an Oline and for the last 20+ years, our franchise has had the highest valued QBs. I view this as benign neglect and shameful. Related to that, over TT 8 years we have not had much of a running game (Lacy may be, but not yet. Rashan Sallom (sic) had a good first year in Chicago). Our defense had been pitiful for far more than 5 games, as has special teams. If you are talking results, our last three years inthe playoffs are one and done, one then done and done. Sorry, my opinion is not limited to a 5 game review.

Neglect of the O-line? He drafted two guys in the first round. One happens to be on IR and the other just got over a broken leg. Would it not be neglect if he stopped picking O-lineman in the first round? Just because guys haven't turned out yet, doesn't mean he's neglecting a position.

Over TT 8 years, we've also had by far one of the best passing games in the league. Come on man. Give him credit for something.

Our defense was nearing the top ten the first half of the season and was number 11 last year. Don't let one bad playoff game cancel out all last season.

Last three years one and done or one then done? Three years ago: Super Bowl. Two seasons ago one and done, but 15-1 regular season. Don't tell me that team didn't have enough talent to win a Super Bowl. They had a poor playoff game with 4 turnovers. Mistakes happen and the most talented team doesn't always in it all (see 16-0 Pats, last season's Broncos, Manning's Colts lots of times).

Sounds like you'll never be happy no matter who is our GM unless they win lots and lots of Super Bowls, which is too high a expectation.

 

[rodell330]

I think that if Capers 'Retires' this offseason and we bring in a new DC - you will be amazed at how good some of TT's defensive draft picks suddenly look.

I will keep my fingers crossed!

 

[Carl]

Well, the problem though is that most of the draft picks from 2011 and 2012 aren´t on the team anymore (only 8 of 18). I think Lacy was a great pick (although it seems like TT tried to trade out of it). Don´t agree on Bakthiari though. He has done a decent job of filling in for Bulaga at LT as a fourth-round pick, but he´s one of the worst LTs in the league, especially in run blocking.

Well, at least he traded around to get up 18 picks. He could have been like Sherman who traded up and always failed.

We can disagree on Bahktiari. I think he's found a starter (probably will be over at RT when Bulaga comes back) at a position that's hard to find guys lower in the draft.

Anyway, I've exhausted all my resources debating with you over TT. I'll just say my main points again are that TT built a Super Bowl team, we wouldn't even be discussing this with a healthy Rodgers, and he turned the team around twice so to me he's clearly earned the chance to do it again.

 

[Bus Cook]

Neglect of the O-line? He drafted two guys in the first round. One happens to be on IR and the other just got over a broken leg. Would it not be neglect if he stopped picking O-lineman in the first round? Just because guys haven't turned out yet, doesn't mean he's neglecting a position.

You are correct, it doesn't mean that TT has neglected the oline, nor did I accuse TT of neglecting the Oline. I've accused TT of FAILING miserably to assemble an Oline that effectively run blocks and protects our QB. We have the most QB sacks of any team in the NFL over the last three years. Sorry that equals failure. I don't care if TT used our first pick every year on an Olineman, I only care about the results. Tebow was drafted in the first round.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

You are correct, it doesn't mean that TT has neglected the oline, nor did I accuse TT of neglecting the Oline. I've accused TT of FAILING miserably to assemble an Oline that effectively run blocks and protects our QB. We have the most QB sacks of any team in the NFL over the last three years. Sorry that equals failure. I don't care if TT used our first pick every year on an Olineman, I only care about the results. Tebow was drafted in the first round.

well, over the past few years we have not had the run support to make other defenses fear the run, so if they know a pass is coming....more blitzs, more sacks. Not to mention the fact that even if we have had the most sacks, we still have had one of the most dominate pass games? so what does that say?

 

[Carl]

You are correct, it doesn't mean that TT has neglected the oline, nor did I accuse TT of neglecting the Oline. I've accused TT of FAILING miserably to assemble an Oline that effectively run blocks and protects our QB. We have the most QB sacks of any team in the NFL over the last three years. Sorry that equals failure. I don't care if TT used our first pick every year on an Olineman, I only care about the results. Tebow was drafted in the first round.

Your exact words were: "I view this as benign neglect and shameful."

If you only care about results, isn't winning the most important result, which TT has accomplished?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

well, over the past few years we have not had the run support to make other defenses fear the run, so if they know a pass is coming....more blitzs, more sacks. Not to mention the fact that even if we have had the most sacks, we still have had one of the most dominate pass games? so what does that say?

That means Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the entire league.

 

[Bus Cook]

Your exact words were: "I view this as benign neglect and shameful."

If you only care about results, isn't winning the most important result, which TT has accomplished?

The last 5 games have shown us that clearly TT hasn't accomplished anything. AR has accomplished the majority of it. The last 3 years show a team in steep decline. Any other conclusion is flawed. What TT did back in 1975 when he made the oilers is no less irrelevant than what he did in 2007 or the superbowl for that matter. None of it has any significance for our game this week.

 

[Carl]

The last 5 games have shown us that clearly TT hasn't accomplished anything. AR has accomplished the majority of it. The last 3 years show a team in steep decline. Any other conclusion is flawed. What TT did back in 1975 when he made the oilers is no less irrelevant than what he did in 2007 or the superbowl for that matter. None of it has any significance for our game this week.

Hasn't accomplished anything? Really? Even if you don't think he's doing well now, a Super Bowl is the biggest accomplishment possible in football.

Do you remember the playoffs that year even? The team won games by only putting up 21 in the wildcard and 14 offensive points in the NFC championship. Did Rodgers play defense those games too?

You can have whatever opinions you want, but at least show some evidence to back them up.

 

[Bus Cook]

Hasn't accomplished anything? Really? Even if you don't think he's doing well now, a Super Bowl is the biggest accomplishment possible in football.

Do you remember the playoffs that year even? The team won games by only putting up 21 in the wildcard and 14 offensive points in the NFC championship. Did Rodgers play defense those games too?

You can have whatever opinions you want, but at least show some evidence to back them up.

OK, the last 5 games. I don't get your point here. We are judging TT NOW, not in 1975, 2010 or in High School Band. Right NOW evidence of his accomplishment is poor. This so paralles the Dom Capers thread. Yes, Dom was a really good if not great DC back in the day. NOW that's questionable at best. Times change. People change. The game changes. Right now, it is crystal clear that if AR was back and TT was gone, we would have a better team than if AR was gone and TT was here.

 

[Carl]

OK, the last 5 games. I don't get your point here. We are judging TT NOW, not in 1975, 2010 or in High School Band. Right NOW evidence of his accomplishment is poor. This so paralles the Dom Capers thread. Yes, Dom was a really good if not great DC back in the day. NOW that's questionable at best. Times change. People change. The game changes. Right now, it is crystal clear that if AR was back and TT was gone, we would have a better team than if AR was gone and TT was here.

How do you know that we'd be better without TT? Maybe another GM would have a better defense, but doubt he'd be better at WR or have such a good running game. In fact, I'm positive we wouldn't have such a good offense with Rodgers and no TT.

And again, 5 bad games isn't enough to warrant moving on. Belichick's Pats missed the playoff after his first Super Bowl. I bet they are glad he wasn't fired. Yeah, we are bad now, but five games is no reason to panic. Teams like the Browns and Raiders have been making quick decisions for years and never got anywhere. Consistency and patience is key in the NFL.

 

[Bus Cook]

How do you know that we'd be better without TT? Maybe another GM would have a better defense, but doubt he'd be better at WR or have such a good running game. In fact, I'm positive we wouldn't have such a good offense with Rodgers and no TT.

I understand your homer sunglasses,but are we even talking about the same team here? I don't know that we'd be better without TT any more than you know that we'd be worse off. I don't think WR is the position that you want to put your chips on. We are down to three WR as it stands. Boykin may be a replacement for the loss of two solid starters in Driver and Jennings. We have NO ONE to replace Finley. Jones may be gone for fiscal reasons. So we have a maybe, Cobb injured and Nelson, who's solid. Not really the feared receiver corp you reference.

Running back is really laughable. In TT's entire time here, we've had one year of Grant, who was a middling at best. We now have Lacy, who looks to be above a middling, but after 9 games no rational fan would annoint him the second coming of John Brockington. In fact, other than the Oline, I would call RB, TT's biggest failing.

We have managed a tie in our best performance without AR, so I hope that you're wrong about us being worse with out TT. I'd hate to tie the Lions record with AR and no TT.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Ryan Grant's middling numbers:
2007-15-7-188-956-5.1-866301454.8021
2008-16-14-312-1,203-3.9-457181166.4117
2009-16-16-282-1,253-4.4-1162251977.9027

 

[Bus Cook]

Ryan Grant's middling numbers:
2007-15-7-188-956-5.1-866301454.8021
2008-16-14-312-1,203-3.9-457181166.4117
2009-16-16-282-1,253-4.4-1162251977.9027

Every year there are 20 RBs that put up those kind of numbers, on teams with a far less proficient passing attack. So that is about as middling as it gets. But there are those that think that Grant was an elite RB. We can agree to disagree on that.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Ryan Grant's middling numbers:
2007-15-7-188-956-5.1-866301454.8021
2008-16-14-312-1,203-3.9-457181166.4117
2009-16-16-282-1,253-4.4-1162251977.9027

Every year there are 20 RBs that put up those kind of numbers, on teams with a far less proficient passing attack. So that is about as middling as it gets. But there are those that think that Grant was an elite RB. We can agree to disagree on that.

roughly 10 RB's per year put up 1,200 yard middling seasons.

 

[Bus Cook]

roughly 10 RB's per year put up 1,200 yard middling seasons.

Stats are always fun. Let's take the year you posted Grant having, 956 yards. Over the last 4 years, which were far more pass happy than Grants years, 18-21-19-18 back rushed for over 956 yards.

For the more rushing oriented years of 2002-2006,here are the number of RBs to eclipse the magical 956 yards.
2002-24
2003-20
2004-23
2005-21
2006-21

Book a room in Canton

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I agree that drafting on the lines hasn't worked well. A healthy Bulaga and Sherrod might change that all around but that's the offensive side.

Totally disagree with you on Burnett. Shields by the way wasn't a draft choice.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...-up-to-his-billing-b99148358z1-233187351.html

Getting a little nitpicky with the complaints. Shields wasn't a draft pick no, he was undrafted free agent. Not sure how that difference affects the contention that Capers has been able to develop players, it actually probably strengthens the argument that Capers can develop guys. Burnett WAS a rising player at the end of last year. As I said, he's had a bad year this year but prior to this he was turning into one of the top 15 safeties in the NFL.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Getting a little nitpicky with the complaints. Shields wasn't a draft pick no, he was undrafted free agent. Not sure how that difference affects the contention that Capers has been able to develop players, it actually probably strengthens the argument that Capers can develop guys. Burnett WAS a rising player at the end of last year. As I said, he's had a bad year this year but prior to this he was turning into one of the top 15 safeties in the NFL.

Burnett missed more tackles than any player on the defense in 2012. Isn't this a TT thread? Sorry that's nitpicky.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Stats are always fun. Let's take the year you posted Grant having, 956 yards. Over the last 4 years, which were far more pass happy than Grants years, 18-21-19-18 back rushed for over 956 yards.

For the more rushing oriented years of 2002-2006,here are the number of RBs to eclipse the magical 956 yards.
2002-24
2003-20
2004-23
2005-21
2006-21

Book a room in Canton

Yes you are correct on the 2007 season and the comparison to 20 games. I don't believe Grant played in all those games. But only 9 backs rushed for more than 1,200 yards in both 2008 and 2009. TT wasn't GM until 2005 (first draft was 2006 I believe) so let's not use ancient history which you have previously eschewed.

Remember this?

"We are judging TT NOW, not in 1975, 2010 or in High School Band."

Look I'm not one who doesn't criticize TT (I have a number of issues with him) but some of the stuff you have posted is just off base.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Teams like tbe Browns, Bucs, even Jaguars have won a bunch of games this past month with crappy QB's.

I'm just extremely disappointed we've gone 0-for-5 so far without Rodgers.
The most skeptical of Thompson-fans would have said at worst, we would have won 2 of these past 5 games, and that would put is in a 1st place tie.

But we've won none.

That's truly pathetic. And it falls 100% on Thompson end-of-story.
Whether it's players or coaches, both areas are his responsibility.

Am I saying "fire him"?
Hell no.

But I am saying what many of you have said for years, and that's adapt to assembling a roster other than the tried & true build from within technique he solely uses.

We all wanted him to add a new safety this year if not last year, a legit talent or veteran.
He's ignored it, putting his chips all in on J-Mac and MD. Fail.

The Broncos were great last year.
And they added Wes Welker in free agency.

Seattle was great last year.
They added Percy Harvin and a few studs on defense.

The Niners were great last year and kicked our arses.
San Francisco traded a 6th round pick for Anquan Boldin this off-season.

Teddy relies on Jerel Worthy's and Nick Perry's and Datone Jones to boost us past everyone, ignoring the fact that those better teams also draft players.
TT seems to believe his drafting skills are so much better than everyone else, they alone can better those teams who draft and add talent via UFA methods.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Teams like tbe Browns, Bucs, even Jaguars have won a bunch of games this past month with crappy QB's.

I'm just extremely disappointed we've gone 0-for-5 so far without Rodgers.
The most skeptical of Thompson-fans would have said at worst, we would have won 2 of these past 5 games, and that would put is in a 1st place tie.

But we've won none.

That's truly pathetic. And it falls 100% on Thompson end-of-story.
Whether it's players or coaches, both areas are his responsibility.

No decent backup for Rodgers, No safety since Nick Collins got hurt, no apparent talent on DL.

 

[Bus Cook]

let's not use ancient history which you have previously eschewed.

Remember this?

"We are judging TT NOW, not in 1975, 2010 or in High School Band."

Look I'm not one who doesn't criticize TT (I have a number of issues with him) but some of the stuff you have posted is just off base.

If someone is saying that Grant was an elite back, I really have to use "ancient history" as he isn't in the league anymore.