What would be this season's catchphrase?

[sschind]

Brady is a unique case among elite players. If you look back at what he's been paid over the years, he's consistently taken one (or more like a dozen) for the team. Woefully underpaid by league standards year after year.

Consider his cash take home in 2016 was $1 mil. It will be $1 mil again in 2017.

When you consider that a player's cap is eventually converted to all cash so long as the guy is not cut, consider Brady's cap hit from 2011 through 2017 has never exceeded $14.8 mil, and the cash pay in 2018 and 2019 is $15 mil per year with $22 mil cap hit in each of those years.

Why? Maybe he likes rings more than the extra money. Or maybe he knows Belichick has a habit of dumping superstars like hot potatoes when they get a little too expensive and he'd prefer building a legacy with NE over a decline somewhere else. Belichick went 3-1 with Jimmy G. and is still hanging on to him, which might also be a kind of message. Or maybe with Giselle's money along with his, he doesn't figure then could ever spend more than that.

Whatever the reasons, when it comes to pay Brady is sui generis.

The man who has already taken home 196 million from the Patriots has been woefully underpaid? That's just so far and does not count the 31 million he is due in salary for the remaining 3 years on his contract.

No doubt Brady has done some great things for the Patriots when it comes to his salary cap numbers and considering what other starting QBs are getting paid now in a direct comparison you might say he is underpaid but for his career but I hardly think he has been underpaid. You have to remember those huge signing bonus checks he got all in one lump sum in those years where he only made a million dollars.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Annuity was the word I couldn't think of. From here
Something else I found

As for the 50%, I can only conclude the money would be charged against the cap according to the contract schedule, but the cash payments deferred. Regardless, as noted in the link, few NFL players have engaged in deferred contract payments in recent years, and no NFL example was cited.

As for the second link, the annuities mentioned there are, in essence, a secondary pension. Whole different deal. They're benefits based on years of service and are outside the salary cap.

The list of benefits are quite impressive, many of which I was not aware of. How do the owners make any money?

 

[sschind]

As HRE noted above, the Packers are not nearly as 'up front' cash rich as many teams with deep pocket owners are. Ya gotta be creative.

You can only be as creative as the salary cap will allow you to be. I don't think having enough money in the bank to cover it is a big issue for the Packers.

 

[sschind]

What did the Giants, for example, pay in SB's last year? $130M? I don't know that we could do that.

I see your point now but I still don't know hopw much of an issue it is.

Time value of money. Where is it written you have to pay the SB immediately? Say a $100m bonus is paid out over 5 years where the future years are padded with a 10% interest payment. Or 20%? Another way to evade the cap. Packers may still be paying Aaron for his last SB. IDK.

I think signing bonuses are usually paid up front in one lump sum but they don't have to be. It can be agreed upon to split it. If I am not mistaken that was part of Bossa's beef with the Chargers, they wanted to split the bonus in to two payments and he wanted it all at once.

Money other than signing bonus can be guaranteed. Base salary can be guaranteed, and those guarantees can vary. They might be unconditional or for injury only. It's however the parties agree.

Extending him 5 years beyond the current contract which runs through 2019 is not what we're contemplating here, or at least I'm not. That takes him out to age 41.

The basis for discussing this matter now is Rodgers' comment in an interview to the affect that, "yeah, I think I'm due for a raise at some point." I would not take that to mean anything other than 2018 at the latest. 2017 as it stands might be OK if there is a new deal soon that rewrites 2018 and 2019. Maybe after the season if The Franchise is OK with that.

Or maybe upon reflection he didn't mean it at all.

A lot of times when teams sign big name free agents they will guarantee the salary for the first year or even two of a contract just because the likelihood of the player being cut is pretty slim so its likely they will pay it anyway so why not guarantee it. Its a risk but its a small one.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The man who has already taken home 196 million from the Patriots has been woefully underpaid? That's just so far and does not count the 31 million he is due in salary for the remaining 3 years on his contract.

No doubt Brady has done some great things for the Patriots when it comes to his salary cap numbers and considering what other starting QBs are getting paid now in a direct comparison you might say he is underpaid but for his career but I hardly think he has been underpaid. You have to remember those huge signing bonus checks he got all in one lump sum in those years where he only made a million dollars.

Uh, yeah, he has been woefully underpaid relative to his peers, few that there are.

$196 mil, which I'd assume includes his last signing bonus, for 16 years as a Pro Bowl and better QB gets you $12.25 mil per year. That also gets you to $197 mil for 17 seasons including 2017, or $11.6 mil per year. It's been a long, long time since elite QBs were paid that money, and many, many years since they've been paid a lot more than that. The Packers were going to pay Brett Favre, what? $10-12? mil, to sit on the bench 9 years ago. And he wanted more to be the starter?

You mentioned $31 mil for the last 3 years of the contract. And that doesn't make my point? It was $1 mil last season, so that gets you $32 mil over the most recent 4 years. The last signing bonus was in 2016 for $28 mil for the 2018-2019 two year extension. The $28 mil plus the $1 mil in salary for 2016 and $1 mil in 2017 gets you to a stupid cheap deal. And the cap numbers for 2018 and 2019 are $22 mil in each year, with no dead cap, which is cheap if he remains an elite QB. In fact, there is a substantial cap savings in each year if he falls apart.

This is somewhat instructive. Brady never got the whomping signing bonus. There were signing bonuses of more modest amounts very regularly along the way to go with extentions and renegotiations. A pay as you go approach, more or less.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You can only be as creative as the salary cap will allow you to be. I don't think having enough money in the bank to cover it is a big issue for the Packers.

Well, it wasn't many years ago that Thompson noted his cash budget from Murphy would not restrict his ability to sign who he wanted. That he would make the point indicates there was some question about it.

While team revenue and earnings are up substantially, so are capital expenses. There's a whole other large business venture in progress that requires funding not required in the not so distant past. I'm sure there is some kind of max cash player salary outlay in the budget independent of the cap.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Both are proven playmakers and still have a high potential ceiling to contribute. What makes you think they''ll be duds next season too?

Matthews hasn't been the same player since the steroid allegations, and now his body is going to hell in a handbag, hopefully he proves me wrong this season but I'd say his best days are behind him.

 

[PikeBadger]

I was responding to the contention that Thompson is "cheap". There's little evidence to suggest that. As noted, $2 mil per year on average under the cap over what will be 7 seasons is hardly being cheap.

If Atlanta is $1-2 mil under the cap (I won't bother confirming that) then here's what it means:

They will have to clear space to sign rookies, bring their roster to 53 (the cap number currently is for top 51) and fill out the PS. They are likely in a "who else ya got?" situation at a couple of positions. In other words, they have a player or two they are overpaying, don't have anybody on the roster they'd want to take that guy or those guys, so they're looking to replace that guy or those guys in the draft.

Further, if they enter the season with near zero cap space and a guy or guys goes to IR, they're going to have to cut a player who's more expensive than the IR replacement.

It's worth noting that some veteran players with some tread left on the tires will be cap casualties after the draft in the Atlanta or a similar scenario. It happens every year. Now, their old contracts might have been excessive before but there is a clean slate once cut.

Thompson may have more cap in reserve than in prior years at this juncture with an eye toward picking up a vet or two after the cap casualty cuts. If not, look for a couple of extensions. Either way, the cap space seen now as excessive by season's end is not likely to be so.

Well that is an unpopular point of view you have about the current cap reserve. Some here think it should have been spent already and that we are doomed, doomed, doomed!

I count around a dozen teams that are probably in a position to have further cap casualty releases not to mention that we currently have the fewest players under contract in the league at 63. The norm is 72-75 so between now and The opening of camp Thompson will probably sign 5-8 more FA's. During August, the available pool of free agents will expand by more than 1000 players.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Well that is an unpopular point of view you have about the current cap reserve. Some here think it should have been spent already and that we are doomed, doomed, doomed!

I wouldn't assume we're not doomed , but if we are it won't have anything to do with Thompson being cheap. I demonstrated that with actual numbers and scenarios.

As for that view being unpopular, in case you have not noticed over the last 5 years or the last 5 hours, that's not really a concern of mine.

I count around a dozen teams that are probably in a position to have further cap casualty releases not to mention that we currently have the fewest players under contract in the league at 63. The norm is 72-75 so between now and the opening of camp Thompson will probably sign 5-8 more FA's. During August, the available pool of free agents will expand by more than 1000 players.

Yes, now those are interesting numbers. I noticed the light roster but had not done an actual count. Piling 27 rookies, somebody else's ex-practice squad guys, Arena players or whatnot on top of the guys already on the roster who have little or no NFL game experience would seem like quite a stretch. You can barely get a decent second-team against second-team practice session off the ground in any orderly fashion.

Yeah, I think there will be a few vets added along the way, maybe one or two with a little money attached who are expected to make the final roster.

 

[brandon2348]

I wouldn't assume we're not doomed , but if we are it won't have anything to do with Thompson being cheap. I demonstrated that with actual numbers and scenarios.

As for that view being unpopular, in case you have not noticed over the last 5 years or the last 5 hours, that's not really a concern of mine.

It's not a matter of if we're doomed its a matter of when. I don't expect Matthews to have anything much left. There is no way he should of been paid and penciled in. As soon as Perry goes down to an injury it will be "open season" on this Packer defense. TT and all these people that think Randall and Rollins are gonna have some seismic recovery or progression are gonna be flat on there face.

Hate to be a Debbie Downer but it doesn't take Nostradamus to see the obvious here. Maybe finally after this TT will finally be gone like a bad nightmare and the Packers can put some people in place to take this team to the promise land. I know you would like to see Capers gone but he hasn't had much of a chance last few years. He is actually probably over performing the defense with this cast of characters TT has assembled.

 

[Poppa San]

Hate to be a Debbie Downer but it doesn't take Nostradamus to see the obvious here

What makes your prophecy the correct one? It's easy to take the field vs any one team to make the super bowl. Heck I'll take the field over New England right now.
And no, I don't think you HATE to be a downer. Your bias against the current coaching staff and front office is quite apparent.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Whopping signing bonuses have a nasty way of backfiring, especially when you get into players in their 30's, a soon to be 34 year old QB or otherwise. If the player doesn't play up to the deal, you've got a very big very big double whammy...you don't have the player you thought you'd have along with a whopping dead cap number sitting there.

Ted Thompson avoids dead cap more than any other GM.

The Packers will need at least ayear of rebuilding once Rodgers retires anyway therefore I wouldn't mind a significant amount of dead money counting against the cap that season as long as it means the Packers have more money to spend while he' s still playing.

I count around a dozen teams that are probably in a position to have further cap casualty releases not to mention that we currently have the fewest players under contract in the league at 63. The norm is 72-75 so between now and The opening of camp Thompson will probably sign 5-8 more FA's. During August, the available pool of free agents will expand by more than 1000 players.

Unfortunately most of these players won't present a significant upgrade over the players already on the roster and in addition aren't familiar with the Packers scheme.

 

[brandon2348]

What makes your prophecy the correct one? It's easy to take the field vs any one team to make the super bowl. Heck I'll take the field over New England right now.
And no, I don't think you HATE to be a downer. Your bias against the current coaching staff and front office is quite apparent.

Here is where I'm different. Last year for example I had the Packers going 13-3. Heck, I even posted that they were capable of going 16-0. I have had similar expectations the previous years on this forum. What happened? Well I have finally have had enough of the Ted Thompson Kool-Aid and don't like the hangover anymore so I took it upon myself to manage my expectations and pull myself out of denial and for that matter "bias" as you put it.

I was biased. Biased that Thompson could do no wrong. That he was a genius. That the Packers were the best etc etc etc.. While I do want the Packers to be the best it's all ******** and there not. Aaron Rodgers is the best and without him they really aren't even a playoff team and Ted Thompson is far from some football genius. That's the reality.

So now this year I am supposed to get all charged up and excited because they signed Bennett? I do like the signing but in comparison to what the Packers lost I don't quite get all the buzz. Packers lost a pro bowl guard, there back up guard/center, there most versatile defensive back last year, they lost production at DE and at OLB with Peppers and Jones. They lost production at RB as well. You could say they lost there no.1 corner as Sammie Shields was officially let go. How in the hell does an upgrade at TE off-set all this?

It doesn't and "right now" the Packers match up worse against the Falcons and Cowboys then last year other then having another scoring option. Let's pump the breaks on the Pat's. We gotta get by some of these NFC teams first which we haven't proven we can.

Lastly, I do have a new level of appreciation for MM and Capers. I don't know how they could be asked to do any better with the lack of influx of and any consistent talent given to them.

For the most part this offseason has been a disaster.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It's not a matter of if we're doomed its a matter of when.

I was kinda sorta joking about not ruling out being doomed, as signified by the smiley face. Even the most exasperated fans should at least acknowledge that so long as Rodgers stays on his feet a division title is a fair assumption.

Now, if one concludes that the defense has not been and still won't be good enough to advance in the playoffs, and that constitutes "doom", then so be it.

As for the chicken-or-egg, Capers-or talent debate, there are certainly arguments to be made for the talent deficit side of the equation.

The reason why I'm on the anti-Capers side of the argument, while acknowledging that the talent is not the greatest, comes down to three factors:

1. Evident confusion and blown assignments more often than you'd like to see. There's a level of complexity that does not sync with draft-and-devleop.

2. There's not a sense of a whole being greater than the sum of the parts. Call it gelling. Call it team play. There's no "scheme makes the player" in this equation, which is often an expression used to critique a player's inherent talents but at the same time says a lot that's good about the coaching. We don't have those guys.

3. No culture of closing. Defensive collapses in the playoffs are too frequent to chalk up to the talent. Woodson lamenting (more like blasting, actually) no adjustments at halftime in the Kaepernick romp-a-thon was your first sign of serious trouble, with more late game mishaps to follow. If, as against Seattle, the defense makes plays and keeps the opponent off the scoreboard for 55 minutes, it's not really the talent is it? But when they collapse in historic fashion that speaks to culture.

 

[brandon2348]

I was kinda sorta joking about not ruling out being doomed, as signified by the smiley face. Even the most exasperated fans should at least acknowledge that so long as Rodgers stays on his feet a division title is a fair assumption.

Now, if one concludes that the defense has not been and still won't be good enough to advance in the playoffs, and that constitutes "doom", then so be it.

As for the chicken-or-egg, Capers-or talent debate, there are certainly arguments to be made for the talent side of the equation.

The reason why I side on the anti-Capers side of the argument, while acknowledging that the talent is not the greatest, comes down to three factors:

1. Evident confusion and blown assignments more often than you'd like to see. There's a level of complexity that does not sync with draft-and-devleop.

2. There's not a sense of a whole being greater than the sum of the parts. Call it gelling. Call it team play. There's no "scheme makes the player" in this equation, which is often an expression used to critique a player's inherent talents but at the same time says a lot about the coaching.

3. No culture of closing. Defensive collapses in the playoffs are too frequent to chalk up to the talent. Woodson lamenting (more like blasting, actually) no adjustments at halftime in the Kaepernick romp-a-thon was your first sign of serious trouble, with more late game mishaps to follow. If, as against Seattle, the defense makes plays and keeps the opponent off the scoreboard, it's not really the talent is it? But when they collapse in historic fashion that speaks to culture.

Yeah, Lotta good points there and Rodgers wins the north no doubt.

Until this defense can prove it can close a big game out then one would have to assume the troubles still exist. Especially with being stingy brining in help up to this point.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Evident confusion and blown assignments more often than you'd like to see. There's a level of complexity that does not sync with draft-and-devleop.

It's pretty obvious that Thompson's draft and develop philosophy doesn't work well with Capers' scheme, especially since the new CBA cracked down on the number of practices.

It's mind-boggling the Packers have nevertheless held on to both of them over the last six years.

 

[PackerDNA]

It's pretty obvious that Thompson's draft and develop philosophy doesn't work well with Capers' scheme, especially since the new CBA cracked down on the number of practices.

It's mind-boggling the Packers have nevertheless held on to both of them over the last six years.

It's why, even before last season, I was of the opinion that it's time for change. The current philosophy doesn't fit where this team is, or what it needs to get to the next level. We're treading water, and sinking. Year 13 of TT, year 12 of MM, year 9 of Capers. The whole thing has gotten predictable, and in a rut.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's why, even before last season, I was of the opinion that it's time for change. The current philosophy doesn't fit where this team is, or what it needs to get to the next level. We're treading water, and sinking. Year 13 of TT, year 12 of MM, year 9 of Capers. The whole thing has gotten predictable, and in a rut.

The philosophy obviously still works on the offensive side of the ball. It's beyond my understanding that there haven't been any significant changes made to improve the defense over the last six years though.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It's pretty obvious that Thompson's draft and develop philosophy doesn't work well with Capers' scheme, especially since the new CBA cracked down on the number of practices.

It's mind-boggling the Packers have nevertheless held on to both of them over the last six years.

Make the playoffs, fill the stands, sell beer and burgers (or is it bourbon and steaks?) down the street. Why mess with a "winning" formula?

Hey, the season ticket waiting list was one thing when the stadium was 55,000; it's another at 80,000 with that list going south if resale prices drop far enough.

Too much circuses and not enough bread if you ask me.

 

[brandon2348]

Make the playoffs, fill the stands, sell beer and burgers (or is it bourbon and steaks?) down the street. Why mess with a "winning" formula?

Hey, the season ticket waiting list was one thing when the stadium was 55,000; it's another at 80,000 with that list going south if resale prices drop far enough.

Too much circuses and not enough bread if you ask me.

It's all geared toward the causal fan and making money.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The philosophy obviously still works on the offensive side of the ball. It's beyond my understanding that there haven't been any significant changes made to improve the defense over the last six years though.

The top picks keep going to defense. The defensive cap was higher than the offense's last season. Steps are taken, results are poor.

People say "fire Thompson". Well if you fire Thompson the new guy will want his on guys (unless it's the young Wolf one supposes). If it were somebody other than the unproven Wolf, Capers would likely be out anyway, though I would think McCarthy would survive. And if talent selection is the problem you probably don't want Thompson's protege.

Why not take the first step and get rid of a failing DC? Then we'll find out to what extent the problem is talent selection and whether Thompson needs to retire. Maybe that's why Capers keeps hanging around. Maybe Thompson doesn't want to find out the answer to that question.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I can imagine the upcoming season Catch Phrases on the Cleveland Browns, 49ers, Bears, Jags etc. fan websites......

"Shoot for .500!"

We are all spoiled LOL

 

[rmontro]

Here is where I'm different. Last year for example I had the Packers going 13-3. Heck, I even posted that they were capable of going 16-0. I have had similar expectations the previous years on this forum. What happened? Well I have finally have had enough of the Ted Thompson Kool-Aid and don't like the hangover anymore so I took it upon myself to manage my expectations and pull myself out of denial and for that matter "bias" as you put it.

I agree with this. I have adjusted my expectations. Every year I've been thinking they had a chance for a Super Bowl win, and that if they were to be able to get hot at the right time, maybe they could repeat their 2010 run. But going into this year I just don't see that happening, they have too many holes, especially on the defensive side, and they haven't been good on defense in years.

They'll probably make the playoffs, probably win the division, maybe even win a game or two if Rodgers plays well. But I don't see the horses for them to win it all. Their weaknesses will cost them at some point. Of course the offseason isn't over, but that's my current take.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The top picks keep going to defense. The defensive cap was higher than the offense's last season. Steps are taken, results are poor.

People say "fire Thompson". Well if you fire Thompson the new guy will want his on guys (unless it's the young Wolf one supposes). If it were somebody other than the unproven Wolf, Capers would likely be out anyway, though I would think McCarthy would survive. And if talent selection is the problem you probably don't want Thompson's protege.

Why not take the first step and get rid of a failing DC? Then we'll find out to what extent the problem is talent selection and whether Thompson needs to retire. Maybe that's why Capers keeps hanging around. Maybe Thompson doesn't want to find out the answer to that question.

I wasn't necessarily advocating to fire Thompson in my previous post you replied to as it's possible hiring a different defensive coordinator would have done the trick as well. But holding on to both of them for several years and expecting different results is incomprehensible.

 

[Mondio]

The top picks keep going to defense. The defensive cap was higher than the offense's last season. Steps are taken, results are poor.

People say "fire Thompson". Well if you fire Thompson the new guy will want his on guys (unless it's the young Wolf one supposes). If it were somebody other than the unproven Wolf, Capers would likely be out anyway, though I would think McCarthy would survive. And if talent selection is the problem you probably don't want Thompson's protege.

Why not take the first step and get rid of a failing DC? Then we'll find out to what extent the problem is talent selection and whether Thompson needs to retire. Maybe that's why Capers keeps hanging around. Maybe Thompson doesn't want to find out the answer to that question.

I'm all over with this one. Is it talent selection? Is it just bad circumstances they haven't been able to overcome? is it underutilized or mismanaged talent, ie capers?

Last years draft is too soon to really guage, but I think Kenny Clark is going to be good. I think Fackerell can be a situational guy with good leverage, I like martinez and Lowery for the positions they were picked. I don't think there's a lack of "talent" from that draft.

the previous draft, the big question is on randall and rollins. are going to build on the 1st year success or sink with last years performance? I see talent in both those guys. They also looked a lot different last year than the previous. These 2 picks are going to go a long ways in defining our defense one way or the other. But Jake Ryan has been becoming a nice ILB, especially coming from the 4th round? I don't see a lack of talent. I saw injury and maybe a guy out of position.

3 years we had Clinton Dix, who is a very solid player and Thorton was a slug. bad pick, though he seemed to have the physical tools on paper, he obviously didn't have it on the field. only other guy from that draft are Ringo and Goodson and Goodson can be gone already as soon as someone takes his special teams spot this year and I can see Ringo being just a decent rotation guy, but at a 6th rounder what else do you expect?

and before that we had Datone, who imo has the skills and has flashed, but has been so inconsistent it's hard to argue he was a worthy pick. I do take issue with the argument he didn't have talent, because if you watched him last year you could see he did. But horribly inconsistent. can't say he was a great pick, but I can see why he was chosen. But then we didn't have another defender chosen until the 5th round in Hyde and he was a very solid player. He wasn't worth keeping at 6-7 million per year, but a solid guy to have in the lineup and I'd take that production in the 5th round every single year relative to any position on the field. Then some late round defenders, 2 of the 3 that did have some production with us, and one blew out a knee and the other an ankle and I don't think have played anywhere since.

Then we get to 2012 where it was a heavy defensive draft. Perry, can't argue lack of talent. can argue lack of health, but not lack of talent. Worthy, have to admit i was really excited by him and then very disappointed as well. He seemed to be in the backfield on far too many plays against the Badgers, I thought he'd do the same in the NFL. I was wrong. So were the Packers. Dud. But then we had Heyward and Daniels, 2 pretty good picks. Obviously had the talent. Then we get some late round guys that didn't do much of anything.

i think 5 years is far enough back. There are some very good defensive picks, some solid NFL contributors and a couple of duds. and yeah the cap was higher for defense, but you had an aging Peppers, Shields who contributed nothing and Matthews who was disappointing and injured too eating up a lot of that. I imagine our offense would suck without Rodgers or Jordy on the field or even Jordy and one of our Tackles eating up cap space and not peforming or seeing the field. Because your franchise OLB and Shutdown CB are pretty important players who's absence will definitely be felt. Bad talent? Bad coaching? Bad luck? right combination of each to make certain deficits insurmountable?