Titans preseason studs/duds

[Half Empty]

Ok, the OL played well enough for the passing game to account for 356 yards and 3 touchdowns. There’s a fact.

Not necessarily. The 356/3 may be, but we've all seen instances where something like that was accomplished in spite of, rather because of, the OL. Now, if we really want to go with facts, "the OL played, and the offense accounted for 356/3".

 

[HardRightEdge]

Burks is never going to be able to stack and shed. That won’t be his skill set. Neither is it Deion Jones’. If he can use his speed to make plays and avoid blocks while being an asset in coverage, he will be valuable.

For him, its about getting down the pre-snap reads and the anticipation which is the mental side of the quickness coin. That's what keeps O-Linemen from getting clean shots at successful hybrid guys.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I did not get a chance to see the game. But I am thinking that the other team probably sat a lot of their starters....

That's a correct assumption. It's a correct assumption for all 32 teams without even watching the games. Preseason week 3 is where starters tend to get the most work. Even then, a minor injury to a veteran that would not keep him out of a regular season games will put him on the bench as a precaution.

Level of competition is the biggest issue in evaluating preseason performance. You can't go by the stat sheet. You have to look at how guys move, anticipate, execute. Do they look like successful players you've seen before in these regards regardless of what the other guy is doing? Do the Combine measurables translate to the field? Ultimately, you do not know what you have until several games into the regular season. Young guys will be making mistakes if they get on the field opening day. Then it becomes whether they can correct and adjust quickly in on-the-job training.

 

[Dantés]

First, he's no Deion Jones though. Second, linebackers are suppose to be able to take on blocks and shed.

Of course. I’m comparing Burks to his role, not his quality. And there are many other examples. I chose him to illustrate that even an elite version of what Burks is meant to be isn’t going to be eating OL blocks.

My point is that if people expect this new generation of ~225 lb linebacker to come in and be able to take on offensive linemen, they’re going to be perpetually disappointed. That’s not why they’re being drafted. It’s not their role in the defense.

 

[Dantés]

Not necessarily. The 356/3 may be, but we've all seen instances where something like that was accomplished in spite of, rather because of, the OL. Now, if we really want to go with facts, "the OL played, and the offense accounted for 356/3".

That’s actually wrong, but this is getting pedantic, so I’ll leave it at this— the OL was not without its flaws but it was without a number of starters and each unit allowed quarterbacks enough time to post some big numbers. So just possibly the hand wringing over the OL play is actually people extrapolating how they felt about a couple of bad plays (which is actually just a microcosm for how fans judge offensive linemen in general).

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That’s actually wrong, but this is getting pedantic, so I’ll leave it at this— the OL was not without its flaws but it was without a number of starters and each unit allowed quarterbacks enough time to post some big numbers. So just possibly the hand wringing over the OL play is actually people extrapolating how they felt about a couple of bad plays (which is actually just a microcosm for how fans judge offensive linemen in general).

If you wont believe the few of us that watched the game, I think you said that you didn't, then maybe this write up and "grades" of the units will help deliver what we are trying to say about the OL.

Also, since stats and final scores really aren't that important in preseason, I put more weight on the knowledge that despite the yards gained, the backup players on the OL, especially the tackles, looked pretty bad.

https://dairylandexpress.com/2018/0...rades-preseason-week-1-vs-tennessee-titans/4/

"The only thing holding Green Bay back from receiving a higher grade is their offensive line. Even though they were missing guys like Bryan Bulaga, David Bakhtiari and Lane Taylor, the backups didn’t come to play. They constantly allowed pressure and it turned out to come at key times. Hundley was strip-sacked one play and his interception came after a defender beat his man off the edge. The line must clean that up for this team to meet their full potential."

 

[Dantés]

If you wont believe the few of us that watched the game, I think you said that you didn't, then maybe this write up and "grades" of the units will help deliver what we are trying to say about the OL.

Also, since stats and final scores really aren't that important in preseason, I put more weight on the knowledge that despite the yards gained, the backup players on the OL, especially the tackles, looked pretty bad.

https://dairylandexpress.com/2018/0...rades-preseason-week-1-vs-tennessee-titans/4/

"The only thing holding Green Bay back from receiving a higher grade is their offensive line. Even though they were missing guys like Bryan Bulaga, David Bakhtiari and Lane Taylor, the backups didn’t come to play. They constantly allowed pressure and it turned out to come at key times. Hundley was strip-sacked one play and his interception came after a defender beat his man off the edge. The line must clean that up for this team to meet their full potential."

It’s weird that I would get this much push back for saying the OL played well enough for the offense to do what it did. You’re right, I did not watch it live. I’ve seen most of it now. As a whole, the lines weren’t that good. I also didn’t think they were as disastrous as advertised. It seemed like pretty typical preseason OL play to me.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It’s weird that I would get this much push back for saying the OL played well enough for the offense to do what it did. You’re right, I did not watch it live. I’ve seen most of it now. As a whole, the lines weren’t that good. I also didn’t think they were as disastrous as advertised. It seemed like pretty typical preseason OL play to me.

I think the disappointing part to me was specifically the play of Bell, Murphy and to some extent Spriggs. Those are suppose to be our 3 key backups and while Spriggs wasn't terrible playing at the end of the game against guys who probably won't make the Titans squad, both Bell and Murphy didn't fare so well, especially when you consider their experience versus the experience they were up against. I actually liked Dillon Day at Center, but my expectations for Day aren't that high.

 

[Dantés]

I think the disappointing part to me was specifically the play of Bell, Murphy and to some extent Spriggs. Those are suppose to be our 3 key backups and while Spriggs wasn't terrible playing at the end of the game against guys who probably won't make the Titans squad, both Bell and Murphy didn't fare so well, especially when you consider their experience versus the experience they were up against. I actually liked Dillon Day at Center, but my expectations for Day aren't that high.

Bell just straight up isn’t a tackle. He can’t move well enough. He might make the team as a backup guard who can be an emergency tackle, but it would seem to me that he got the start because Spriggs did something stupid, not because he’s better.

Murphy is going to struggle with elite speed, which is what Landry has. He just doesn’t have the foot speed to hang with it. As a starter, he needs to be improved upon. But as a backup, by the standard of OL play league wide, he’s fine.

 

[Dantés]

@PackFan2 ok, so then are players like Lavonte David not doing their job because they can’t take on OL blocks and shed?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Bell just straight up isn’t a tackle. He can’t move well enough. He might make the team as a backup guard who can be an emergency tackle, but it would seem to me that he got the start because Spriggs did something stupid, not because he’s better.

Murphy is going to struggle with elite speed, which is what Landry has. He just doesn’t have the foot speed to hang with it. As a starter, he needs to be improved upon. But as a backup, by the standard of OL play league wide, he’s fine.

While I understand all of that, this started out as me and others saying we were disappointed in the play of the OL. Your comment was although you didn't see the game, it couldn't have been that bad given the final score and stats. Despite who was playing what position and why, the overall performance of the OL, IMO, was underwhelming and if I was MM, I would be a bit concerned about the quality of depth, at least at this point in the preseason.

Maybe the Packers plan to use Bell at G, but seems like his career has been spent playing T, so I would have expected more than what I saw out of him.

Is it time to panic? No, if both Bahk and Bulaga stay healthy, the OL should be fine. However, given that its hard to keep the entire OL intact for 16+ games, I would hope we see some improved play from the backups, especially against other backups.

 

[gopkrs]

@gopkrs why do I get an “optimistic” for stating a fact?

Once again we see facts clouding issues. Kind of depends how you use them and if you take into consideration all of the variables. Gave you an optimistic because you seem to think that since we threw for a bunch of yards in a preseason game; our O line played well. In a preseason game it is easier to see who is not playing well as opposed to who is...generally. Because of the possible (probable?) poor quality of the guy who is trying to beat you. Not to mention, there were probably a bunch of guys in the D backfield that are not very good. If you think we have decent backups at tackle; I think you are being very optimistic.

 

[PackFan2]

@PackFan2 ok, so then are players like Lavonte David not doing their job because they can’t take on OL blocks and shed?

David can take on blocks, (Shaizer, Myles Jack, Shaq Thompson, B.Wagner). Not sure why you're so offended by me saying linebackers should be able to take on blocks.

 

[Dantés]

Once again we see facts clouding issues. Kind of depends how you use them and if you take into consideration all of the variables. Gave you an optimistic because you seem to think that since we threw for a bunch of yards in a preseason game; our O line played well. In a preseason game it is easier to see who is not playing well as opposed to who is...generally. Because of the possible (probable?) poor quality of the guy who is trying to beat you. Not to mention, there were probably a bunch of guys in the D backfield that are not very good. If you think we have decent backups at tackle; I think you are being very optimistic.

No, you misread what I said. I said despite the OL issues, the line played well enough for the passing offense to be really effective. That’s different than saying they played well.

 

[Dantés]

David can take on blocks, (Shaizer, Myles Jack, Shaq Thompson, B.Wagner). Not sure why you're so offended by me saying linebackers should be able to take on blocks.

I’m not offended. We disagree on something and I’m engaging with you over it. That’s why I’m here. I find it diverting.

David and players like Shaq Thompson most certainly cannot stack and shed OL blocks. Wagner can, but he’s elite and also more traditional LB size at 245. Not sure about Jack.

My point is that I don’t think that’s why players like Burk are drafted. I don’t think that a team takes a 6’3” 230 lb DB convert with cover skills to have him try to tangle with blockers 70-100 lbs heavier than him. His role in the defense is coverage, screen protection, and- in the run game- being freed up by his own speed/anticipation and his DL to make plays without having to deal with blockers.

So I guess what I’m saying is that Burks could be a very successful player and never be good at the skill that you’re saying is a requisite for his job.

 

[Dantés]

While I understand all of that, this started out as me and others saying we were disappointed in the play of the OL. Your comment was although you didn't see the game, it couldn't have been that bad given the final score and stats. Despite who was playing what position and why, the overall performance of the OL, IMO, was underwhelming and if I was MM, I would be a bit concerned about the quality of depth, at least at this point in the preseason.

Maybe the Packers plan to use Bell at G, but seems like his career has been spent playing T, so I would have expected more than what I saw out of him.

Is it time to panic? No, if both Bahk and Bulaga stay healthy, the OL should be fine. However, given that its hard to keep the entire OL intact for 16+ games, I would hope we see some improved play from the backups, especially against other backups.

My comment was merely that the OL, for its troubles, still allowed for a very effective passing output. I kind of thought I was just stating the obvious.

Edit— and for the record, my comment that sparked this whole thing was to someone who also had not seen the game at the time.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Maybe the Packers plan to use Bell at G, but seems like his career has been spent playing T, so I would have expected more than what I saw out of him.

Bell started 7 games at LG for the Titans in 2015. When you start thinking about paring down the roster to 46 for game day, that may be enough positional flexibility to keep him around. Murphy has not played any guard as far as I can recall and he's playing LT whereas by all rights he should be on the right side and Spriggs on the left. A while back McCarthy suggested Spriggs would get a look at the RG spot. Instead, we saw him playing behind Bell at RT with the 3rd. stringers. Unless Spriggs' spot on the depth chart changes right quick, he may well be on the bubble and busted out. There's the often mentioned "2nd year jump", then McCarthy slipped in a "2nd or 3rd year jump" not too long ago. I've yet to hear of a 4th. year jump to justify keeping him on the roster but not suited up for game day hoping for that jump next season.

Heck, Justin McCray looked better than any of these backup OTs filling at LT last season, a position he had never played prior to the week of practice before being thrown into the fire.

If this depth chart doesn't change and the backup performances don't improve, on opening day we could be looking at 7 OL on the game day roster with Murphy as the #3 OT, McCray as the emergency #4 OT, and a backup C/OG. That configuration covers two game day injuries. That would leave Spriggs as an odd man out and maybe Bell as well. And if you don't qualify for game day you are squarely on the bubble.

I've qualified this by saying the depth chart better change right quick for Spriggs. Right now the coaches may be more interested in evaluating Bell in these early games while having some kind of comfort level with Spriggs as a backup OT. If that's the case, though, Spriggs should be getting earlier snaps with the second team very soon, like preseason game #2..

 

[HardRightEdge]

My comment was merely that the OL, for its troubles, still allowed for a very effective passing output. I kind of thought I was just stating the obvious.

Edit— and for the record, my comment that sparked this whole thing was to someone who also had not seen the game at the time.

So you're saying it was the blind leading the blind?

From a stats standpoint, I conclude our second and third stringers were better prepared than theirs. By halftime both teams were going deep into that 90 man roster. Even not watching the game one might note the Packers scored 24 of their 31 points in the second half.

 

[Dantés]

So you're saying it was the blind leading the blind?

From a stats standpoint, I conclude our second and third stringers were better prepared than theirs. By halftime both teams were going deep into that 90 man roster. Even not watching the game one might note the Packers scored 24 of their 31 points in the second half.

The blind leading the blind would actually make a good tagline for this and all fan forums.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The blind leading the blind would actually make a good tagline for this and all fan forums.

These days it seems everybody is entitled to their own false equivalency...err, I mean...opinion.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

My comment was merely that the OL, for its troubles, still allowed for a very effective passing output. I kind of thought I was just stating the obvious.

Edit— and for the record, my comment that sparked this whole thing was to someone who also had not seen the game at the time.

Right, we just disagree on going from point A (good offensive stats) to concluding from that to get to point B (decent OL play). Remember, a running back could rip off a few long runs on his own, end the day with a 100+ yard performance, that doesn't necessarily mean that the OL was run blocking effectively.

Kind of silly to debate it for obvious reasons. First, we are subjectively grading based on our own "eye test". Second, its the preseason and maybe some of these guys are still knocking the rust off their cleats (Bell for one in a new system). Finally, when you start getting into the bottom of the depth charts on both sides of the line, sometimes what you see isn't what you get.

I'm content, as well have no choice, to let the coaches break down the film with the players and let them know what they are doing right and what they still need to work on. If Joe Whitt was coaching the OL, I might be more concerned, but Campen has a knack for getting something out of not much.

 

[Dantés]

Right, we just disagree on going from point A (good offensive stats) to concluding from that to get to point B (decent OL play). Remember, a running back could rip off a few long runs on his own, end the day with a 100+ yard performance, that doesn't necessarily mean that the OL was run blocking effectively.

Kind of silly to debate it for obvious reasons. First, we are subjectively grading based on our own "eye test". Second, its the preseason and maybe some of these guys are still knocking the rust off their cleats (Bell for one in a new system). Finally, when you start getting into the bottom of the depth charts on both sides of the line, sometimes what you see isn't what you get.

I'm content, as well have no choice, to let the coaches break down the film with the players and let them know what they are doing right and what they still need to work on. If Joe Whitt was coaching the OL, I might be more concerned, but Campen has a knack for getting something out of not much.

Well... what’s really silly is that I wasn’t even trying to say that the OL was good. Just that they were good enough for the passing attack to get the job one. But in any case, I think we’ve squeezed the last drop of futility out of this one.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well... what’s really silly is that I wasn’t even trying to say that the OL was good. Just that they were good enough for the passing attack to get the job one. But in any case, I think we’ve squeezed the last drop of futility out of this one.

LOL...nothing wrong with a good civilized discussions. It made me think more about Bell and the possibility of him just being new to the Packer system, as well as what you said, maybe long term, he will be used as the primary guard backup, but an emergency Tackle. I'm still scratching my head about Spriggs, didn't like the pick from the jump and still not liking the guy.

 

[Jerellh528]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Pack...99100.ampproject.net/1533253141109/frame.html


PFF’s top 5 grades for the game

 

[HardRightEdge]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Packers/status/1028343195543859200?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://d-20909302301522699100.ampproject.net/1533253141109/frame.html


PFF’s top 5 grades for the game

According to Demovsky's snap counts at espn.com, Donnerson had only 7 snaps in getting that "elite" grade. Way too small of a sample, especially against bench competition, to make anything of it.

Thomas' grade that squeeks into PFF's "above average" range was achieved on 27 snaps, a larger sample but again playing against the bench as the 4th. ILB on the field. I can't say I noticed these guys except for one Thomas tackle, though the stat sheet at espn.com shows 3 solo tackles and a QB hit for what that's worth. In any case, it's better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Thomas' Pro Day from 2017:

http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=128263&draftyear=2017&genpos=ss