Ted Thompson Era Should Be Over

[Deleted member 6794]

You cannot be sure about that, can you, without seeing those guys play in other systems before they get old and slow? What I do know is that he runs lousy zone schemes.

You're right that I can't be sure about it but most defensive players moving on from the Packers to another team not significantly improving lining up for a different defensive coordinator is a pretty strong indicator for a lack of talent.

 

[Dantés]

You're right that I can't be sure about it but most defensive players moving on from the Packers to another team not significantly improving lining up for a different defensive coordinator is a pretty strong indicator for a lack of talent.

But it's a tiny sample size because the majority of the good players are kept.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You're right that I can't be sure about it but most defensive players moving on from the Packers to another team not significantly improving lining up for a different defensive coordinator is a pretty strong indicator for a lack of talent.

Like who, excluding guys who got old and slow? Eric Walden had 11 sacks this past season and 3 forced fumbles. Looks like Monchino's scheme suits him. Cutting some low draft pick or UDFA that doesn't turn out is a useless exercise.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Like who, excluding guys who got old and slow? Eric Walden had 11 sacks this past season and 3 forced fumbles. Looks like Monchino's scheme suits him. Cutting some low draft pick or UDFA that doesn't turn out is a useless exercise.

Well, I have to admit that I wasn't aware that Walden registered 11 sacks last season. Mike Neal, Jerel Worthy or Khyri Thornton are some examples to support my theory.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Well, Walden was one of these late round draft picks though. Mike Neal, Jerel Worthy or Khyri Thornton are some examples to support my theory.

Thornton was a 3rd. rounder where busts are fairly common. We don't know what Neal would do in another system. I'll grant you Worthy; his 14% snap count with Buffalo may be as good as it gets. As someone else noted above, the sample size is too small which says something in itself.

There is little doubt that Thompson and Capers share complicity on the defensive side of the ball. But at least the offensive side remains consistently productive. Capers works only one side of the ball. It is shocking that the cap hit on defense was greater than on offense last season. So, if we assume that Thompson has contributed with less than optimal defensive picks while Capers is unable to maximize what he has, then not "fixing" both problems doesn't mean you shouldn't fix one of them.

There's a long-standing mediocrity (or worse) on the defensive side of the ball. One element of that equation should have been addressed by firing Capers.

The history of end-of-game defensive collapses, or even the defense going in the tank after the missed field goal and Ripkowski fumble this last go-round, is a cultural problem that falls on the DC and not the talent.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Well, I have to admit that I wasn't aware that Walden registered 11 sacks last season. Mike Neal, Jerel Worthy or Khyri Thornton are some examples to support my theory.

As for Walden, he was a decent player with the Packers to start with, not some bum who emerged elsewhere. He probably would have remained a Packer had he been a Thompson draftee and/or Indy had not thrown at him what was a bunch of money at the time.

Still, it took 4 years and a new DC before Walden had a career year in his 9th. season, kinda like waiting around for 4 1/2 yeas before Perry showing some emergence. Like Randall at CB instead of S, Perry was a misfit toy at 3-4 ILB instead of 4-3 DE. But the talent was/is there. While these are speculative picks in the position change equation, it takes our erstwhile DC years to get the talent out of them, more lumps taken in the learning process than should be reasonably expected.

If you give Capers a starting point of Charles Woodson, oh yeah, that works, and not in small part because he's out there freelancing against the scheme!

 

[Mondio]

Except I don't think Perry was limited because he was "mis-cast" in a 3-4 rather than a 4-3. He was out or playing with a bad shoulder or an injured something that limited him for much of the previous 3 years.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Except I don't think Perry was limited because he was "mis-cast" in a 3-4 rather than a 4-3. He was out or playing with a bad shoulder or an injured something that limited him for much of the previous 3 years.

I'm sorry, but there's a lot of yada yada in that frequently cited claim. Everybody plays injured to one degree or another.

 

[Mondio]

Yes they do, and not every injured player is affected equally or every injury the same. There has been an obvious difference in Perry when he's playing healthy and when he's not and that's been evident from day one.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Whatever TT is doing on his end, his batting average for drafting defensive talent is lackluster to say the least. Since TT has been in charge, 2 of the players that have had a large impact on the defense, Woodson and Peppers, were both FA signings. But I do believe Capers hasn't helped matters either with what seems to be his inability to coach guys up or the inability to coach guys that TT drafts. The inconsistent nature of his defenses as a whole and individual parts at times leads me to believe that Capers better days of coaching are behind him. Possibly the game as well as this generation of athlete has passed Capers by and a younger coach with a different coaching style will actually find a way to make better players out of the guys TT drafts.

As HRE stated, the change has to happen with one or both leaving, because together doesn't seem to be getting the job done. Personally, I would love to see a DC with some energy. A guy on the sidelines, going through the battles with his defense. All I see right now is a guy in a warm pressbox, staring at a screen with a glazed look in his eyes.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

What is also interesting to me is that when the Packers were 4-6 and the season looked to be lost, it was really the offense that bailed the Packers out and helped make the season a "successful" one. Had that 4-6 record rolled into a 6-10 one, I think Capers would be gone and there even would have been some talk about what to do with TT and MM. I hope Dom bought AR and the offense some golden buckets at the end of the season, because I think they helped bail out the sinking ship that most likely would have seen Capers rightfully going down with it.

 

[PackerDNA]

What is also interesting to me is that when the Packers were 4-6 and the season looked to be lost, it was really the offense that bailed the Packers out and helped make the season a "successful" one. Had that 4-6 record rolled into a 6-10 one, I think Capers would be gone and there even would have been some talk about what to do with TT and MM. I hope Dom bought AR and the offense some golden buckets at the end of the season, because I think they helped bail out the sinking ship that most likely would have seen Capers rightfully going down with it.

I'd like to agree with you, but I don't think much, if anything would have been done if they'd went 6-10.
If they go 6-10 this year, you'll still have the same crew mouthing the same platitudes with the possible exception of Capers.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'd like to agree with you, but I don't think much, if anything would have been done if they'd went 6-10.
If they go 6-10 this year, you'll still have the same crew mouthing the same platitudes with the possible exception of Capers.

While we will never know about this year, I have to think a 6-10 season in Green Bay, no matter when it comes, will bring some change. I even think a few of us got into a discussion about that back when the Packers were 4-6. Talking about "maybe this is what they need to finally make some changes and how winning games was the only way jobs would be saved." Even going so far as saying "Better to lose games, miss the playoffs, get a higher pick and have some change". While I loved the 8-0 run, change is looking good too.

 

[Quientus]

Hindsight is always 20/20 ...

I've never been a fan of TT, however TT has been able to field a competitive team pretty much every season he has been in charge, and that to me is succesful GM - "Only 1 Super Bowl" argument for critisism is weak ... There are 32 teams competing every season and only a handful of These teams even make it to the Conference Championship game ...

As to Rodgers, I believe, had the 49'ers drafted Rodgers and had Alex Smith ended up in Green Bay with McLardy, most likely, We would be talking about how Great Smith is, and not Rodgers (I know ALOT will disagree on this ) ... Talentwise Coming into the draft Smith and Rodgers looked similar, with Smith edging out Rodgers in the regard that many viewed Rodgers to be more "succesful because of the system he played in" coming out of College than Smith ... Many will disagree and based on their respective careers seen in hindsight, they would be right, however, Smith didn't get to have McLardy coaching him for more than one season, even though (most likely) it was McLardys input who Got 49'ers to choose Smith over Rodgers (?) - Unless McLardy already knew he was going to become the headcoach of the Packers in 2005 and schemed to not have the 49'ers draft Rodgers LOL

Coming into the League, the scouting reports that made Rodgers drop in the draft, were actually not that far off target ... Remember Rodgers first season as a starter ? And in some parts also into the following season ... I do believe McLardy made a tremendous effort and job in coaching up Rodgers and help mold him into the QB, Rodgers is today - and root out some of those habits both in the preseason and during the regular season, and the rest is "history".

Funny thing is that Rodgers play These past 2 seasons reminds me alot of Favre (minus the Ints ofcourse ) in that alot of the Plays are outside the pocket and more often as of late alot of throws have been across the body on the opposite foot - like Favre did, because Rodgers has to improvise more, with the difference that Rodgers is a much better runner than Favre ever was ...

TT in my opinion (in Hindsight) "lucked out" on Rodgers, but should be given credit for pulling the trigger on drafting Rodgers.

I don't buy the argument that TT hasn't been able to draft "sufficiently" and provide for the defensive side ... No GM or coach is able to foresee that many injuries and yet the Packers has consistently been able to be in contention almost every season ...
Could TT have done more in FA ? - Sure he could have, however, that would not have been a given that things would have played out differently, nor that the Pack would have won more SBs during his tenure ... In my view what this team has been lacking most is a true onfield Leader(s), especially when things dont play out as planned, and that (true leadership) is hard to both coach and draft ...

 

[adambr2]

Thornton was a 3rd. rounder where busts are fairly common. We don't know what Neal would do in another system. I'll grant you Worthy; his 14% snap count with Buffalo may be as good as it gets. As someone else noted above, the sample size is too small which says something in itself.

There is little doubt that Thompson and Capers share complicity on the defensive side of the ball. But at least the offensive side remains consistently productive. Capers works only one side of the ball. It is shocking that the cap hit on defense was greater than on offense last season. So, if we assume that Thompson has contributed with less than optimal defensive picks while Capers is unable to maximize what he has, then not "fixing" both problems doesn't mean you shouldn't fix one of them.

There's a long-standing mediocrity (or worse) on the defensive side of the ball. One element of that equation should have been addressed by firing Capers.

The history of end-of-game defensive collapses, or even the defense going in the tank after the missed field goal and Ripkowski fumble this last go-round, is a cultural problem that falls on the DC and not the talent.

As long as he has a couple shutdown corners, a playmaking safety, two elite edge rushers, a top 3-4 nose tackle, and a run stuffing ILB, I'm sure he'll turn it around just fine.

Seriously, Thompson needs to do better on the defensive side, but I don't know too many D coordinators doing less with what they have to work with. No one will mistake Hyde for Woodson, but the safeties on this team are among the league's best, the edge rush between Matthews, Perry, and Peppers SHOULD have been among the best, and Daniels is among the best 3-4 ends in the league. There's more talent on the D than some would like to believe.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There is little doubt that Thompson and Capers share complicity on the defensive side of the ball. But at least the offensive side remains consistently productive. Capers works only one side of the ball. It is shocking that the cap hit on defense was greater than on offense last season. So, if we assume that Thompson has contributed with less than optimal defensive picks while Capers is unable to maximize what he has, then not "fixing" both problems doesn't mean you shouldn't fix one of them.

There's a long-standing mediocrity (or worse) on the defensive side of the ball. One element of that equation should have been addressed by firing Capers.

The history of end-of-game defensive collapses, or even the defense going in the tank after the missed field goal and Ripkowski fumble this last go-round, is a cultural problem that falls on the DC and not the talent.

There's no denying that the Packers defense hasn't performed at an adequate level for most of the last six seasons but in my opinion Thompson not providing enough talent is mostly to blame for it.

I agree that the combination of TT and Capers isn't working and would have been fine with either of them being replaced this offseason.

I've never been a fan of TT, however TT has been able to field a competitive team pretty much every season he has been in charge, and that to me is succesful GM - "Only 1 Super Bowl" argument for critisism is weak ... There are 32 teams competing every season and only a handful of These teams even make it to the Conference Championship game ...

Coming into the League, the scouting reports that made Rodgers drop in the draft, were actually not that far off target ... Remember Rodgers first season as a starter

While it's true that it's extremely tough to win a Super Bowl the Packers benefit from having had the best quarterback in the league for several seasons yet have failed to clinch another title. That's in large part on Thompson.

Rodgers had an impressive year during his first season as a starter finishing sixth in passer rating with the offense scoring the fifth most points in 2008. Once again the defense struggled and were the main reason the Packers didn't finish with a better record.

Seriously, Thompson needs to do better on the defensive side, but I don't know too many D coordinators doing less with what they have to work with. No one will mistake Hyde for Woodson, but the safeties on this team are among the league's best, the edge rush between Matthews, Perry, and Peppers SHOULD have been among the best, and Daniels is among the best 3-4 ends in the league. There's more talent on the D than some would like to believe.

Unfortunately there has been a position completely lacking talent on that side of the ball nearly every single season resulting in the defense struggling.

In my opinion Capers is able to put a decent unit on the field if provided with at least average talent. Just take a look at 2015 when the unit didn't have any glaring weaknesses the defense finished 12th in points allowed.

 

[Quientus]

(...)
Rodgers had an impressive year during his first season as a starter finishing sixth in passer rating with the offense scoring the fifth most points in 2008. Once again the defense struggled and were the main reason the Packers didn't finish with a better record.
(...)

Statistically - Yes - Rodgers had Great individual stats while the team lost ... 6-10 was the score that season ... - Yet Rodgers did alot of what the scouting reports on him had said; held on to the Ball too long ... was a little skittish in the pocket, didn't use his check downs ... wanted the long completion more than the short ... The defense was NOT the only reason the Pack had a negative record that season ... when will ppl realize this ???

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Statistically - Yes - Rodgers had Great individual stats while the team lost ... 6-10 was the score that season ... - Yet Rodgers did alot of what the scouting reports on him had said; held on to the Ball too long ... was a little skittish in the pocket, didn't use his check downs ... wanted the long completion more than the short ... The defense was NOT the only reason the Pack had a negative record that season ... when will ppl realize this ???

The Packers finished the 2008 season fifth in points scored as well as 22nd in points allowed. Yet you want to blame Rodgers for the team not making the playoffs. Amazing.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I agree that the combination of TT and Capers isn't working and would have been fine with either of them being replaced this offseason.

That's water under the bridge, of course.

So, once again we can look forward to yet another attempt to replicate the 2009 Saints: just outscore everybody.

 

[Quientus]

The Packers finished the 2008 season fifth in points scored as well as 22nd in points allowed. Yet you want to blame Rodgers for the team not making the playoffs. Amazing.

Eh ? Wut ???

I'm not blaming Rodgers, however Rodgers play during his first season as a starter wasn't really as impressive as his Numbers suggest ... If you bothered to take a look at alot of the other QBs that season, ALOT had Numbers "going through the roof" ... if I remember correctly 6-7 QBs were above 4K ... Not to mention Chad Pennington was 2nd in Rating behind Rivers ...

 

[Mavster]

Eh ? Wut ???

I'm not blaming Rodgers, however Rodgers play during his first season as a starter wasn't really as impressive as his Numbers suggest ... If you bothered to take a look at alot of the other QBs that season, ALOT had Numbers "going through the roof" ... if I remember correctly 6-7 QBs were above 4K ... Not to mention Chad Pennington was 2nd in Rating behind Rivers ...

So what? The Defense was still a bottom 10 unit, while on the other side the offense did decently well with a new starting QB.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Eh ? Wut ???

I'm not blaming Rodgers, however Rodgers play during his first season as a starter wasn't really as impressive as his Numbers suggest ... If you bothered to take a look at alot of the other QBs that season, ALOT had Numbers "going through the roof" ... if I remember correctly 6-7 QBs were above 4K ... Not to mention Chad Pennington was 2nd in Rating behind Rivers ...

Geez, Rodgers was fourth in passing yards and touchdowns as well as sixth in QB rating in 2008. I really don't know what you expect out of a first year starter.

 

[PikeBadger]

What is also interesting to me is that when the Packers were 4-6 and the season looked to be lost, it was really the offense that bailed the Packers out and helped make the season a "successful" one. Had that 4-6 record rolled into a 6-10 one, I think Capers would be gone and there even would have been some talk about what to do with TT and MM. I hope Dom bought AR and the offense some golden buckets at the end of the season, because I think they helped bail out the sinking ship that most likely would have seen Capers rightfully going down with it.

Imo, the offense was a very big part of the reason we were 4-6. Rodgers play during those first ten games was not very good.

 

[PikeBadger]

While we will never know about this year, I have to think a 6-10 season in Green Bay, no matter when it comes, will bring some change. I even think a few of us got into a discussion about that back when the Packers were 4-6. Talking about "maybe this is what they need to finally make some changes and how winning games was the only way jobs would be saved." Even going so far as saying "Better to lose games, miss the playoffs, get a higher pick and have some change". While I loved the 8-0 run, change is looking good too.

Most likely true that the dreaded 6-10 seasonn will come some day and that is going to be a very unhappy season for me. I'm very spoiled with our 25 year run.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Imo, the offense was a very big part of the reason we were 4-6. Rodgers play during those first ten games was not very good.

No question that both the offense and defense played its part in the 4-6 start to 2016. However, it was the offense that ultimately bailed the defense and Capers out the rest of the way. The turnover ratio helped during that 8-0 run too, but I'm not ready to give all the credit to the defense for that, some of it involved our offense not turning the ball over as much, as well as luck.