Randall Cobb is...

[rodell330]

Davis seems like a slot receiver to me. We shall see.

He's definitely faster than Cobb...just lacks the physical toughness to bang inside like Cobb.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

What makes a WR successful in Green Bay? Chemistry with AR. Rodgers is a QB that relies on his receivers knowing what he is thinking, knowing what Rodgers will do when a play breaks down and Cobb is one of those guys. James Jones proved what a WR, one that couldn't even make it with another team, but had chemistry with AR, could do. Also, Rodgers is a guy who spreads the ball around to quite a few targets, so expecting Cobb to put up the numbers he did in 2014 every year, is unrealistic. Cobb is in Green Bay at least one more year due to his cap hit. Now if next year the Packers feel he isn't worth the $9.5M, they would save by cutting him, then he might be gone. But with his current contract, I doubt they could find a trade partner.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Is an average slot WR worth over $12M? A competent GM would make a move at a position where an average player is very replaceable.

There´s no doubt Cobb hasn´t performed up to the deal he signed two years ago but he´s still a valuable contributor to the Packers passing offense. It would be a mistake to release him but I would be absolutely fine approaching him about restructuring his contract.

Davis seems like a slot receiver to me. We shall see.

He's definitely faster than Cobb...just lacks the physical toughness to bang inside like Cobb.

Davis currently lacks the route running skills necessary to be successful in the slot.

 

[Mondio]

how does Jones get brought up as an example of a WR that can't make it with another QB, but can with Rodgers? He had the most catches ever in his career, his yards were down by not a small margin, his TD's were pretty good for a WR and his catch percentage was very close to his best ever. AND he did this on a rebuilding team with a rookie QB. It's hardly an example of a guy that can't make it

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

how does Jones get brought up as an example of a WR that can't make it with another QB, but can with Rodgers? He had the most catches ever in his career, his yards were down by not a small margin, his TD's were pretty good for a WR and his catch percentage was very close to his best ever. AND he did this on a rebuilding team with a rookie QB. It's hardly an example of a guy that can't make it

Yet he was unemployed on 9/7/2015 when the Packers resigned him and unemployed once again when the Packers didn't resign him after the season. Jones averaged 9.1 yds/catch with the Raiders. The following year with the Packers...17.8 yds/catch.

I am a big James Jones fan, but he was a more productive WR playing with AR.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

I don´t agree with the premise that Cobb should be released anytime soon though.

Again, fine. Being in support of part of the idea doesn't sign you up for the whole. Could I ask what role you would envision for Cobb in an offense where Nelson lines up 100% in the slot? Two slot receivers? Cobb on the boundary? More exotic packages?

 

[Mondio]

Yet he was unemployed on 9/7/2015 when the Packers resigned him and unemployed once again when the Packers didn't resign him after the season. Jones averaged 9.1 yds/catch with the Raiders. The following year with the Packers...17.8 yds/catch.

I am a big James Jones fan, but he was a more productive WR playing with AR.

yes he was unemployed, he was an aging receiver on a team rebuilding and replacing old with new. his 17.8 was far and away his best average, including the 7 seasons he had with Rodgers before hand. one would expect a YPC to be lower with a rookie QB tossing you the ball on a rebuilding team. However he had more catches than he ever did in 8 seasons with Rodgers as his QB. He had about the same TD's with his rookie QB as he did with Rodgers if you exclude the outlier of 14. If you want to include it, he still had more TD's with his rookie QB than he averaged with Rodgers in his career. They guy clearly performed with another QB. He's not an example you want to use here.

 

[gopkrs]

There´s no doubt Cobb hasn´t performed up to the deal he signed two years ago but he´s still a valuable contributor to the Packers passing offense. It would be a mistake to release him but I would be absolutely fine approaching him about restructuring his contract.





Davis currently lacks the route running skills necessary to be successful in the slot.

That I have not heard before. I have seen him drop a couple of passes but he seemed to be on the outside on each of them. For a shifty and quick man; I think running routes is a bit easier from the inside. So he should be tried at the slot. Enough of round pegs in square holes. He and Cobb should be switching in the slot and let the hot hand play. Obviously Davis needs to hang on to the ball. It just would not surprise me if he is better this year.

 

[gopkrs]

One thing I would like to make clear. If a player is off the line of scrimmage but to the outside...he is a flanker. If he is off the line of scrimmage on the inside...he is in the slot.

 

[gbgary]

this team would be worse without cobb. worse...is not the object of the game. the money is irrelevant! they're $20m +- under the cap now and cobb is cheap next year. it's all about skill, smarts, heart, experience, chemistry with qb1, leadership, quickness, etc. cobb is loaded in those departments.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

this team would be worse without cobb. worse...is not the object of the game. the money is irrelevant! they're $20m +- under the cap now and cobb is cheap next year. it's all about skill, smarts, heart, experience, chemistry with qb1, leadership, quickness, etc. cobb is loaded in those departments.

FTFY

this team would be worse without cobb to a certain extent which is currently undefined and possibly worth the tradeoff.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

this team would be worse without cobb. worse...is not the object of the game. the money is irrelevant! they're $20m +- under the cap now and cobb is cheap next year. it's all about skill, smarts, heart, experience, chemistry with qb1, leadership, quickness, etc. cobb is loaded in those departments.

Can you explain what you mean by "cheap"? His cap hit is $12.6M for both of the next two seasons.

 

[Dantés]

I think there's almost no chance that he's traded, but if they did move Cobb I hope it would be to the Ravens for a pass rusher. Matt Judon or Zadarius Smith would be sweet pick ups. Baltimore has veterans in Suggs and McClellan and just spent high picks on Bowser and Williams. Breshad Perriman is hurt for them. I'd love to snag a pass rusher and open up a roster spot for another young receiver.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

I think there's almost no chance that he's traded, but if they did move Cobb I hope it would be to the Ravens for a pass rusher. Matt Judon or Zadarius Smith would be sweet pick ups. Baltimore has veterans in Suggs and McClellan and just spent high picks on Bowser and Williams. Breshad Perriman is hurt for them. I'd love to snag a pass rusher and open up a roster spot for another young receiver.

No way he is traded at his current price and production - agreed. But, if we did trade him, player for player, it wouldn't open up a roster spot for another receiver, unless you're thinking that the pass rusher would bump out one of the guys we have right now (which I'm okay with, just clarifying).

 

[Dantés]

No way he is traded at his current price and production - agreed. But, if we did trade him, player for player, it wouldn't open up a roster spot for another receiver, unless you're thinking that the pass rusher would bump out one of the guys we have right now (which I'm okay with, just clarifying).

Yeah that's the idea. In this hypothetical, say they land Smith and he takes the spot that might have otherwise gone to a UDFA edge rusher. Now Cobb's spot is open to another player.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Could I ask what role you would envision for Cobb in an offense where Nelson lines up 100% in the slot?

I haven´t seen anyone suggesting to line up Nelson exclusively in the slot.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

I haven´t seen anyone suggesting to line up Nelson exclusively in the slot.

I wasn't referencing anyone else's comment per se, merely asking the question of you. You seem to have extensively thought out positions on many things, and I was just curious.

 

[sschind]

No way they release or trade cobb this season. Maybe prior to next season but even then i could see TT keeping adams cap number low in first year of his deal so cobb can stay for last year of his. Reason i say no way this year is because hes too important to rodgers and bo one else is ready to take his place.

That's an excellent point quick. Just because we would have three WRs with big contracts doesn't mean those contracts couldn't be structured in a way to fit them all in for one year. Big 2nd contracts often have low year 1 cap hits due to the signing bonus allowing for a low salary.

Cobb is our best slot receiver. He's farther down on our list of best WRs, but you need a capable player here. If we develop someone to take over then he is expendable.

I actually agree with this sentiment, but Jordy's contract runs through 2018 (same as Cobb) which I think will be his last year unless a bunch of these WRs bust. McCaffrey might be his replacement as well as Allison and others.

Farther down as in #2? I could see Adams topping Cobb's numbers this year but but right now I'd still say Cobb is our second best receiver.

There are times when Cobb looks so focused that I believe he cannot be stopped. At other times he does not seem to get open..

So like just about every other higher level WR that has played the game.

That's fine. I'm merely collating the sentiment expressed across a few different posts by a few people who seem to agree that Nelson could man the slot, with the why and under what circumstances. You are not required to adopt that line of thought.

If Cobb can come back to the level of production this year that he has had in years past, I'm happy with him. If not, I think he is safely a candidate for discussing being cut - based upon cap savings, future contract options, etc.

The question isn't who replaces Cobb in the slot. I'm sure Nelson could do that very nicely. The question is who then replaces Nelson as one of the outside guys. Its possible that Nelson could replace Cobb with no drop off at the slot position but we have no one on the roster to take Nelson's spot on the outside without a tremendous drop off. Even if you say Adams slides into Nelsons spot so no drop off the difference between Adams and anyone else is also pretty great. The bottom line for me is Nelson, Cobb and Adams are our three best WRs by far. I think it would be ridiculous to get rid of one of them at this point.

Is an average slot WR worth over $12M? A competent GM would make a move at a position where an average player is very replaceable.

I happen to think Cobb is well above average but you are entitled to your opinion. You are going to point to his numbers as proof but as others have said there is more to it than just numbers. Good job of sneaking a shot at Ted into a thread about Randall Cobb though.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

The question isn't who replaces Cobb in the slot. I'm sure Nelson could do that very nicely. The question is who then replaces Nelson as one of the outside guys. Its possible that Nelson could replace Cobb with no drop off at the slot position but we have no one on the roster to take Nelson's spot on the outside without a tremendous drop off. Even if you say Adams slides into Nelsons spot so no drop off the difference between Adams and anyone else is also pretty great. The bottom line for me is Nelson, Cobb and Adams are our three best WRs by far. I think it would be ridiculous to get rid of one of them at this point.

The parts with which I agree: Our best three receivers are Nelson, Adams, and Cobb. Nelson could likely fill in for Cobb in the slot and present at minimum a wash and possibly an upgrade (though my stance on this is predicated upon Cobb's recent performance, not his potential performance). There is also nobody who can fill in for Nelson on the outside and match his level of production from last year (though that year was quite amazing and it is also likely that Nelson himself will not fill in for last year's Nelson at that same level).

The parts where I have a bit of an issue: There are three primary points here, two of which are the basis for the conversation itself: Cobb has not been playing all that well for some time (granted, due to injury at least partly) and Nelson is both getting old and stacking up major injuries. For Cobb to merit a roster spot, he must either step up his production or his cost must come down. Otherwise the pure mathematics of the business insist he must be cut. Last year Nelson played at a level as close to elite as he has reached in his career in many respects. It is natural to presume that he will have a major regression either this year or in another year or two. Older players simply do not keep their physical dominance, and Nelson will lose his soon. Thus, these two points bring us to the third point. If Cobb does not bring up his game or his price does not come down we will be losing him. When Nelson loses his physical dominance, he will no longer be effective on the outside. If both of those things happen relatively simultaneously, then Nelson can replace Cobb in the slot, but we have no choice but to find a replacement for Nelson on the outside, regardless of who else we have - because this scenario which is inevitable has him no longer being the best option outside. It could even be worse: he could regress to such a point as where he is not even the best option in the slot. Cobb could get better and end up being a great slot guy again, but we would still have the issue with Nelson - who then would have nowhere to contribute in the context of our best 3 WRs.

The conclusion: We could end up seeing either or both Cobb and Nelson gone in two to three years. We must either draft, develop, or bring in a replacement on the outside. We also must explore drafting, developing, or bringing in a replacement in the slot. Therefore, we should not be discussing whether or not Nelson can or should replace Cobb in the slot. We should be discussing whether or not we have the right players on this team right now to fill the very inevitable holes at WR that will be upon is in one to three years.

 

[Dantés]

The impending losses of Cobb and Nelson in the not too distant future underscores for me the importance of extending Adams.

 

[Candidate for Deletion]

The impending losses of Cobb and Nelson in the not too distant future underscores for me the importance of extending Adams.

Agreed. Unfortunately, there is a legitimate scenario we can envisage in which Cobb's production falls further and he is cut, Nelson falls off or retires due to age/injury, and Adams is gone due to demanding far too high a price compared to what the FO think he should receive. It is not the most likely case (I tend to think that two of the three will remain for 3-5 more years) but certainly one that is not impossible in the least, and likely enough to warrant discussion.

I also hate to say that, of the guys below those three, I cannot think of a single one I would envision being able to replace any of them. Allsion's ceiling is likely a #4, Davis has a much higher ceiling but also seems to have a lower floor... Of them all, Clark probably has the most physical ability and the highest ceiling - he has the physical attributes to be a truly devastating #1 WR - but who knows if he will ever be able to translate those to any more than some nice catches in preseason? We will likely find ourselves wanting to draft relatively highly in the WR field in the next few years, or else we may be forced to dredge the FA WR waters.

 

[Dantés]

Agreed. Unfortunately, there is a legitimate scenario we can envisage in which Cobb's production falls further and he is cut, Nelson falls off or retires due to age/injury, and Adams is gone due to demanding far too high a price compared to what the FO think he should receive. It is not the most likely case (I tend to think that two of the three will remain for 3-5 more years) but certainly one that is not impossible in the least, and likely enough to warrant discussion.

I also hate to say that, of the guys below those three, I cannot think of a single one I would envision being able to replace any of them. Allsion's ceiling is likely a #4, Davis has a much higher ceiling but also seems to have a lower floor... Of them all, Clark probably has the most physical ability and the highest ceiling - he has the physical attributes to be a truly devastating #1 WR - but who knows if he will ever be able to translate those to any more than some nice catches in preseason? We will likely find ourselves wanting to draft relatively highly in the WR field in the next few years, or else we may be forced to dredge the FA WR waters.

I know this isn't exactly what you're saying, but I tend to find it strange when people predict that a good young Packer will walk in free agency, as though that's a common occurrence. Of course there's a chance that Adams walks, but the trend of this FO has been incredibly strong towards giving their own good players second contracts. In the 12 years of TT at the helm, the list of good players not to be given a second deal is essentially two guys: Hyde and Hayward (which would seem to suggest something philosophical about the way the FO views that position).

One thing I like about all this receiver depth is that the Packers are maximizing their shot at a guy emerging into a starting role. Including the practice squad, GB should have somewhere from 5-7 wide receivers not including Nelson, Adams, and Cobb. That doesn't guarantee development and success, but it makes for better chances. If someone out of the mix of Yancey, Davis, Allison, Clark, McCaffrey and Dupre emerges as a good starting receiver, that's like found money. And frankly, I don't think it's all that improbable that it happens given the shear numbers. If it doesn't, there's still the option of drafting someone high.

 

[gbgary]

Can you explain what you mean by "cheap"? His cap hit is $12.6M for both of the next two seasons.

i misread his salary info. you are correct sir. smh

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I know this isn't exactly what you're saying, but I tend to find it strange when people predict that a good young Packer will walk in free agency, as though that's a common occurrence. Of course there's a chance that Adams walks, but the trend of this FO has been incredibly strong towards giving their own good players second contracts. In the 12 years of TT at the helm, the list of good players not to be given a second deal is essentially two guys: Hyde and Hayward (which would seem to suggest something philosophical about the way the FO views that position).

One thing I like about all this receiver depth is that the Packers are maximizing their shot at a guy emerging into a starting role. Including the practice squad, GB should have somewhere from 5-7 wide receivers not including Nelson, Adams, and Cobb. That doesn't guarantee development and success, but it makes for better chances. If someone out of the mix of Yancey, Davis, Allison, Clark, McCaffrey and Dupre emerges as a good starting receiver, that's like found money. And frankly, I don't think it's all that improbable that it happens given the shear numbers. If it doesn't, there's still the option of drafting someone high.

For the very reason you point out, lots of potential in 5-7 WR's not named Nelson or Cobb, I'm not so sure that the Packers will need/want or have to pay Adams on a big contract. There are still a few variables to play out on that decision though:

1. Development of WR's 4-12 on roster.
2. Status of Cobb in 2018 and beyond.
3. Maybe a bit on Jordy, but he is signed through 2018 and guessing he wants to end his career with AR and the Packers with one more fair contract.
4. Adams himself. Many factors here. How well he plays in 2017, injuries, how big of a market he sees in Free Agency. If he has a big year, he may very well price himself right out of what TT is comfortable spending. TT seems to have overspent on Cobb and that might be something he remembers.

Of course this all goes out the window if TT doesn't even want to risk losing Adams and signs him early.

 

[Dantés]

For the very reason you point out, lots of potential in 5-7 WR's not named Nelson or Cobb, I'm not so sure that the Packers will need/want or have to pay Adams on a big contract. There are still a few variables to play out on that decision though:

1. Development of WR's 4-12 on roster.
2. Status of Cobb in 2018 and beyond.
3. Maybe a bit on Jordy, but he is signed through 2018 and guessing he wants to end his career with AR and the Packers with one more fair contract.
4. Adams himself. Many factors here. How well he plays in 2017, injuries, how big of a market he sees in Free Agency. If he has a big year, he may very well price himself right out of what TT is comfortable spending. TT seems to have overspent on Cobb and that might be something he remembers.

Of course this all goes out the window if TT doesn't even want to risk losing Adams and signs him early.

There is still much that needs to play out, of course, but I would be hesitant to use the depth of potential as a reason to pass on Adams. This being a heavy 11 personnel offense, you essentially have three starters. Even if they give Nelson a 3rd contract, they need two more guys. And given their ages, Adams may well be the better player over the next five years. I love Jordy, but he is entering the phase of his career where he may easily drop off.

Adams need to match or build on last year. But if camp is any indicator, he is doing just that. The reports I read all seem to point to a significant drop off after Nelson and Adams. I think he's taken a step well past Cobb and could be in for another big season. In Mike McCarthy's offense, I just don't see how you let that go. Doing so seems to risk having next to nothing in 2019.