Packers vs Browns Studs n Duds

[Pokerbrat2000]

For the life of me, I can't understand why MLF chooses not to call more plays where Love rolls out to his right or left? Especially when the defense is constantly collapsing the pocket like yesterday. Is Love a bad passer when on the move? Is MLF afraid of getting Love hurt by rolling him out? If MLF is afraid of injuries to Love by rolling him out and giving him a RPO, then I got news for MLF. QB's are much more suspectable to injuries, when they get sacked in the pocket, a pocket that includes 300 lb + guys on both defense and offense landing on every part of said QB's body.

This should have been MLF's game plan going into Cleveland, especially with a banged up offensive line. I blame about 90% of this loss on MLF. The defense had the game won for the Packers, but MLF was content with scoring just 10 points.

 

[DarkHelmet]

GB had 5 Sacks! Doing that would be 85 Sacks on a season. The 1984 NFL record in a season is 72 sacks (Chicago). GB would tie the NFL record with 5 Sacks per game.

I'd love to see the Packers out do the Bears on that metric. It wasn't the number of sacks that concerned me -- 5 is obviously nothing to sneeze at. It was the fact that a couple of crucial opportunities were missed. Again, I think Parsons getting held on practically every play was and will be a big problem.

 

[Magooch]

I'd love to see the Packers out do the Bears on that metric. It wasn't the number of sacks that concerned me -- 5 is obviously nothing to sneeze at. It was the fact that a couple of crucial opportunities were missed. Again, I think Parsons getting held on practically every play was and will be a big problem.

I would want to double-check that too, might have it backwards. Everything I've read (NFL.com, ESPN, Pro Football Reference, etc) has the Browns credited with 5 sacks, not us. We were only credited with two.

 

[Magooch]

For the life of me, I can't understand why MLF chooses not to call more plays where Love rolls out to his right or left? Especially when the defense is constantly collapsing the pocket like yesterday. Is Love a bad passer when on the move? Is MLF afraid of getting Love hurt by rolling him out? If MLF is afraid of injuries to Love by rolling him out and giving him a RPO, then I got news for MLF. QB's are much more suspectable to injuries, when they get sacked in the pocket, a pocket that includes 300 lb + guys on both defense and offense landing on every part of said QB's body.

This should have been MLF's game plan going into Cleveland, especially with a banged up offensive line. I blame about 90% of this loss on MLF. The defense had the game won for the Packers, but MLF was content with scoring just 10 points.

100% agree. And I think I said it already earlier (and I think you did too, lol) but it really felt like when LaFleur opened it up a little bit and got more up-tempo and aggressive, it seemed like that's when we started rolling the best...and then for whatever reason got away from that again right after it started working. Offensively it was very much a "not-to-lose" type of approach IMO

 

[gopkrs]

For the life of me, I can't understand why MLF chooses not to call more plays where Love rolls out to his right or left? Especially when the defense is constantly collapsing the pocket like yesterday. Is Love a bad passer when on the move? Is MLF afraid of getting Love hurt by rolling him out? If MLF is afraid of injuries to Love by rolling him out and giving him a RPO, then I got news for MLF. QB's are much more suspectable to injuries, when they get sacked in the pocket, a pocket that includes 300 lb + guys on both defense and offense landing on every part of said QB's body.

This should have been MLF's game plan going into Cleveland, especially with a banged up offensive line. I blame about 90% of this loss on MLF. The defense had the game won for the Packers, but MLF was content with scoring just 10 points.

Love did not have much room to throw as the pocket was collapsing all around him

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

100% agree. And I think I said it already earlier (and I think you did too, lol) but it really felt like when LaFleur opened it up a little bit and got more up-tempo and aggressive, it seemed like that's when we started rolling the best...and then for whatever reason got away from that again right after it started working. Offensively it was very much a "not-to-lose" type of approach IMO

1000%

The Packers scored their only TD of the day when MLF opened it up. Then he looked up at the scoreboard, it was 10-0 and he said "OK, now lets go back to my original game plan and run some clock." That works, when you are successfully running the ball, playing mistake free football and a solid defense isn't playing the run.

I will keep repeating myself and I said it a lot last season too.....this offense needs a new play caller. A guy who's only job is calling offensive plays. He is sitting up there in the booth, not distracted by the rest of the game, a guy that understands how to attack a defense from every angle and can adjust that attack as the game progresses.

Final aspect of why MLF needs to hand the play calling off. That is of the play clock and the trouble he gets Jordan in. Too often we see the Packers offense breaking the huddle with under 15 seconds left on the play clock. That might work at home, when the crowd is relatively quiet, but on the road, no! I can only surmise that the reason that Jordan isn't breaking the huddle faster, MLF is slow getting a play in. This handcuffs Jordan and the offense. He can't get up their fast enough to read the defense, audible if needed and get the ball snapped before that play clock reaches zero. How many timeouts a game does he or MLF have to call to avoid a 5 yard penalty, before MLF realizes the issue?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Love did not have much room to throw as the pocket was collapsing all around him

Exactly and MLF should have known that it would be an issue the entire game, against that Browns defense. His OL was beat up and had backups playing. This wasn't the first game of the season, the Browns defense, especially that front 4, is talented and had 6 sacks coming into Sundays game.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would want to double-check that too, might have it backwards. Everything I've read (NFL.com, ESPN, Pro Football Reference, etc) has the Browns credited with 5 sacks, not us. We were only credited with two.

Yup. But I think @DarkHelmet was responding to @OldSchool101 post that stated the Packers had 5 sacks.

GB had 5 Sacks! Doing that would be 85 Sacks on a season. The 1984 NFL record in a season is 72 sacks (Chicago). GB would tie the NFL record with 5 Sacks per game.

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[OldSchool101]

I would want to double-check that too, might have it backwards. Everything I've read (NFL.com, ESPN, Pro Football Reference, etc) has the Browns credited with 5 sacks, not us. We were only credited with two.

That sack count was actually my mistake, not Darkhelmet. I had the Team count reversed. His point that we could’ve used another drive altering Sack was spot on.

As far as Jordan, he wasn’t getting good protection at all. Ok we can blame injuries, but we’re supposed to be deep at OL. The bench didn’t step up. I do think our OL will improve as the season transpires. This group was shaken up pretty good this year.

 

[OldSchool101]

I do think we try to get too fancy in 3rd n 1. Imo with that D? you MUST be quicker off the snap. Had Tucker reduced inside last second I think we get a tough yard. 4th n inches, 14:22 gameclock 4Qtr.

Packers 10
Browns 0

ANYTIME you have a multiple score lead you NEVER hurry up to get a play off unless the play clock is expiring. LET THE QUARTER EXPIRE!!! We just handed our opponent and extra :30 seconds gameclock with 1 qtr to play.

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Instead we hurry up and run a play and got fancy and went for the big play (low probability)
You MUST maximize the clock in that scenario.

Had Cleveland forfeited :30+ seconds of gameclock at the end they Lose. That game clock was running as Golden had just gotten 2 yards the previous play.

IMO Detroit takes TWO tries to get 1.5 yards. GB 75% chance gets 1 full yard with last second Tucker direct snap. 4th down and 1/2 yard. 14:20 4Q. If you make that 1/2 yard it’s a crushing blow for multiple reasons. Every 1:20 you burn off that clock based on score = 1pt. Not to mention you get a new set of downs and go across midfield (field position). Possibly setting up for a 3-4 minute possession and FG try OR pin Cleveland inside their 15 yard line.

Instead? We hand them at minimum :40 seconds for free. Where did Cleveland start the next drive? At the Clev35. We literally exchanged 2 tries at a 1st down for 20 yards of field position!

 

[tynimiller]

So I was able to watch some more All22.....I don't necessary agree with the concept of MLF's offense calling changed a ton compared to the one drive we scored on....execution and the amount of time Love had seem the biggest differences. It is very easy, I fully do it too, to assume when we move the ball and get big plays that it is due to hitting the gas pedal more...but often times it is simply execution and playcall vs defensive call per play.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I do think we try to get too fancy in 3rd n 1. Imo with that D? you MUST be quicker off the snap. Had Tucker reduced inside last second I think we get a tough yard. 4th n inches, 14:22 gameclock 4Qtr.

Packers 10
Browns 0

ANYTIME you have a multiple score lead you NEVER hurry up to get a play off unless the play clock is expiring. LET THE QUARTER EXPIRE!!! We just handed our opponent and extra :30 seconds gameclock with 1 qtr to play.

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Instead we hurry up and run a play and got fancy and went for the big play (low probability)
You MUST maximize the clock in that scenario.

Had Cleveland forfeited :30+ seconds of gameclock at the end they Lose. That game clock was running as Golden had just gotten 2 yards the previous play.

IMO Detroit takes TWO tries to get 1.5 yards. GB 75% chance gets 1 full yard with last second Tucker direct snap. 4th down and 1/2 yard. 14:20 4Q. If you make that 1/2 yard it’s a crushing blow for multiple reasons. Every 1:20 you burn off that clock based on score = 1pt. Not to mention you get a new set of downs and go across midfield (field position). Possibly setting up for a 3-4 minute possession and FG try OR pin Cleveland inside their 15 yard line.

Instead? We hand them at minimum :40 seconds for free. Where did Cleveland start the next drive? At the Clev35. We literally exchanged 2 tries at a 1st down for 20 yards of field position!

Picking up short yardage has been a historical albatross around the Packers neck for years, drives me absolutely NUTS!

McCarthy did it and MLF continues to do it...."oh we have a great line and RB, we will just run it right up the middle". F that! How many times has it not worked? I would have to rewatch the game and I am not about to, but there was (FINALLY) a short yardage play that Love faked the handoff and ran around right end and picked up the damn first down on his own! Do that more and next time....send a TE out as a safety valve. Make the defense defend the entire fricking field, not just the area between the guards. But until the Packers can perfect the Cheddar Push....stop running it up the middle and expecting to get a first down!

Oh the wildcat.....with Savion getting the snap....please scrap that play against good run defending defenses, it sucks!

 

[RicFlairoftheNFL]

I wish the refs would pay half as much attention when he is getting held as they do when he's committing the foul.

I caught Garrett in the neutral zone multiple times and no flag

 

[tynimiller]

Picking up short yardage has been a historical albatross around the Packers neck for years, drives me absolutely NUTS!

McCarthy did it and MLF continues to do it...."oh we have a great line and RB, we will just run it right up the middle". F that! How many times has it not worked? I would have to rewatch the game and I am not about to, but there was (FINALLY) a short yardage play that Love faked the handoff and ran around right end and picked up the damn first down on his own! Do that more and next time....send a TE out as a safety valve. Make the defense defend the entire fricking field, not just the area between the guards. But until the Packers can perfect the Cheddar Push....stop running it up the middle and expecting to get a first down!

Oh the wildcat.....with Savion getting the snap....please scrap that play against good run defending defenses, it sucks!

I've always felt this is partially due to the OL type we prioritize are pass pro guys.

 

[milani]

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been tried some, but that team would have feasted had we tried it too much. I don't think folks realize how good that Brown's defense really is.

The defense is good. But there is also a reason why they had lost 8 games in a row and why it should have been 9.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I've always felt this is partially due to the OL type we prioritize are pass pro guys.

Kind of my point. Our line isn't designed to be able to muscle and grind for that needed short yardage up the middle, so MLF needs to accept it and go another route.

Honestly, I felt this with way with MM and now with MLF. It's like they are saying "FU to you doubters, I'm going to prove that we can do it."

 

[tynimiller]

Kind of my point. Our line isn't designed to be able to muscle and grind for that needed short yardage up the middle, so MLF needs to accept it and go another route.

Honestly, I felt this with way with MM and now with MLF. It's like they are saying "FU to you doubters, I'm going to prove that we can do it."

Now I will say Rhyan and Belton really have that knack more so and Walker isn't bad, but Jenkins has never been a bulldog strong but a technique winner. Banks is too new for me to say one or another.

 

[Magooch]

The defense is good. But there is also a reason why they had lost 8 games in a row and why it should have been 9.

I would also note that heading into yesterday's game (so, admittedly just counting weeks 1/2)...

Browns were:
16th in total defensive EPA/play
19th in pass defense EPA
8th in rush defense EPA

By contrast the Packers defense was:
6th in total defensive EPA
7th in pass defense EPA
7th in rush defense EPA

And when you consider the offenses, the matchup was essentially the 30th-ranked offense by EPA against the 6th-ranked defense and the 6th-ranked offense vs the 16th-ranked defense...

And ironically, factoring in week 3 performance...it moved us up to the 3rd-ranked defense by EPA, while Cleveland moved all the way from 16th to......
.... 15th

I guess if you don't value EPA that much you can disregard all of this but IMO suffice to say we could've and should've done more regardless of the defense we lined up against

 

[Magooch]

Kind of my point. Our line isn't designed to be able to muscle and grind for that needed short yardage up the middle, so MLF needs to accept it and go another route.

Honestly, I felt this with way with MM and now with MLF. It's like they are saying "FU to you doubters, I'm going to prove that we can do it."

This is actually exactly one of the criticisms I had with the Bears approach last week. It just feels so incongruent. They really tried to retool their OL to get better pass pro for Caleb (not saying that was exclusively their focus, for instance C Drew Dalman was generally a better run blocker than pass pro, but overall/in general I think that was their focus) and then would come out in short yardage situations and expect these guys to be bulldogs and bruisers who can grind out the tough yards. Today I think it is fairly rare to be able to have a whole set of guys who can adequately do both...

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Now I will say Rhyan and Belton really have that knack more so and Walker isn't bad, but Jenkins has never been a bulldog strong but a technique winner. Banks is too new for me to say one or another.

So what you are telling me....is that there isn't a chance.....we see the Cheddar push anytime soon?

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[Pokerbrat2000]

Today I think it is fairly rare to be able to have a whole set of guys who can adequately do both...

Fully agree.

Nor is it easy to have 3-5 quality backups that do both adequately either.

All that said, I realize that a key component of a good offense is to not be predictable. However, all one has to do is look at how the Eagles pick up short yardage and it is predictable as a rainbow in Hawaii. Since the Packers currently don't have that option, what they need to do, is to establish "full unpredictability" on how they plan on picking up that short yard.

I would be tickled pink to see a 4th and inches be a fake handoff up the middle and a long pass to Golden streaking down the middle. Now when he drops it or the pass goes over his head, there will be fans that scream and yell "OMG LeFleur WTF are you doing??!!" Me, I will smile and say....."Great call, next time its a TD"

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I guess if you don't value EPA that much you can disregard all of this but IMO suffice to say we could've and should've done more regardless of the defense we lined up against

I am a firm fan of The Environmental Protection Agency, but what do they have to do with football and haven't they been dismantled?

 

[milani]

I would also note that heading into yesterday's game (so, admittedly just counting weeks 1/2)...

Browns were:
16th in total defensive EPA/play
19th in pass defense EPA
8th in rush defense EPA

By contrast the Packers defense was:
6th in total defensive EPA
7th in pass defense EPA
7th in rush defense EPA

And when you consider the offenses, the matchup was essentially the 30th-ranked offense by EPA against the 6th-ranked defense and the 6th-ranked offense vs the 16th-ranked defense...

And ironically, factoring in week 3 performance...it moved us up to the 3rd-ranked defense by EPA, while Cleveland moved all the way from 16th to......
.... 15th

I guess if you don't value EPA that much you can disregard all of this but IMO suffice to say we could've and should've done more regardless of the defense we lined up against

And Cleveland's defense had to be on the field a lot during those 8 consecutive losses. Failure to move the chains and turnovers by their horrific offense means that defense is going to wear down. The Ravens with Henry and Jackson did not put up huge offensive numbers against them but at the end they had 41 points.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think I mentioned it last season or maybe it was this season, but I agree that Bisaccia needs to be on the hotseat. While I really liked him when he first came to Green Bay, the last few seasons, HIS special teams have been the opposite of "Special." They have been inconsistent, penalty ridden and rarely make a largely positive impact. It just came back to me, it was last year that I mentioned it, because I noticed him always standing next to MLF when the offense was out there. I wondered if MLF was using him for advice during the offensive play calling. Whether it was for advice on the play calls themselves, the situational aspect, the game clock, etc. it was obvious that Bisaccia was there for a reason.

Let's face it also, when Bisaccia was brought in, the Packers special teams were an absolute CF! Brandon Bostick himself could have come in and coached them up better.

MLF is wearing too many hats and Bisaccia is too.

Rich Bisaccia Looks Even Worse After Packers Specialist's Comments

The Green Bay Packers were criticized by some for the talk of going undefeated after their Week 2 victory over the Washington Commanders. While it isn't the rea

dairylandexpress.com

 

[OldSchool101]

Picking up short yardage has been a historical albatross around the Packers neck for years, drives me absolutely NUTS!

McCarthy did it and MLF continues to do it...."oh we have a great line and RB, we will just run it right up the middle". F that! How many times has it not worked? I would have to rewatch the game and I am not about to, but there was (FINALLY) a short yardage play that Love faked the handoff and ran around right end and picked up the damn first down on his own! Do that more and next time....send a TE out as a safety valve. Make the defense defend the entire fricking field, not just the area between the guards. But until the Packers can perfect the Cheddar Push....stop running it up the middle and expecting to get a first down!

Oh the wildcat.....with Savion getting the snap....please scrap that play against good run defending defenses, it sucks!

Yeah. IMO one big reason for that is slower development of Runs. One of the key components of the Tush Push (not suggesting we should do it identical) is its quick timing. The ball gets snapped to who? The Ball Carrier. Very hard to get momentum when the Ball carrier is the first to go.
Another Top 3 ingredient is Size/Power. The Eagles have the size upfront. However part of that equation is?
The Ball Carrier.

You’ll never guess what Tucker Kraft’s success rate is when Rushing.
3/3; 2.2 yards per Rush; 3-1st Downs.
100% (per ProfootballReference)

Now I’m not suggesting he will do that 100% of the time in all conditions
I’m pretty confident the chances of Kraft getting just 1.0 yard are higher than 80%. I’d lay down a sizable bet on that and with The Browns. We needed 1.5 yards to exchange over 3+ minutes of remaining game clock. We are winning by 2-scores, not losing by 2-scores.

Another option is to bring in QB, Malik Willis. He’s 6’ 1/2” 222Lb. and has a strong base. The size of Jalen Hurts and very similar quickness/strength in short areas. Start him in shotgun and have him run up and tap and just grind out 1 yard. L We’re getting way too cute needing 4 feet with 2 tries. If you can’t get me a yardstick with Kraft or Willis then punt it deep with 14:15 to play. Make them go 85 yards. If you get me a Yard? It’s 4th n inches. We can decide from there but your at the GB45 it’s a crucial option, but it’s OUR option