Packers vs Browns Studs n Duds

[tynimiller]

I thought it was the throw that forced him towards the sideline

That throw was dropped on a dime though, there was incoming defense inside and the sideline was the place to drop it. If Golden doesn't Musgrave-stumble he is taking it to the house.

 

[tynimiller]

Where we running too much 12 personnel today? It wasn't working for the blocking and maybe another receiver out their could get someone open

I don't know the breakdown but against the CLE front, less blockers is like putting a dead gazelle carcass infront of a pack of hyenas....

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This game totally brought back my PTSD from the NFCCG against the Seahawks in 2015.

So may different ways of ******** the bed and just handing the game to the other team.

If MLF is still calling plays, he needs to just fully hand that job over to a full time OC. When the heat gets turned up, he panics. He had halftime to realize that his initial game plan against the Browns defense wasn't working, so he changed things up. He began to call quick snaps and quick plays to the outside and it was working.
Fast forward to after the Packers scored their TD, he went right back to trying to run the ball up the middle and calling pass plays that required Jordan to try and sit in a completely collapsed pocket. This isn't just a "Browns game problem" either. This is a problem when the Packers get in a dog fight, Matt panics and the offense goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That throw was dropped on a dime though, there was incoming defense inside and the sideline was the place to drop it. If Golden doesn't Musgrave-stumble he is taking it to the house.

Agree. Golden seemed to catch the ball with his body in an awkward position. Once he caught it, that body position and momentum forced him out of bounds.

Speaking of Musgrave, where was he yesterday? 0 targets. I actually thought maybe he was inactive for the game, then I saw him. He is listed as being in for 13 plays. Fitz was in for 15. Maybe Luke is still injured? Or is Luke heading towards that bust territory? I hope not, really liked the guy when we drafted him.

 

[tynimiller]

Agree. Golden seemed to catch the ball with his body in an awkward position. Once he caught it, that body position and momentum forced him out of bounds.

Speaking of Musgrave, where was he yesterday? 0 targets. I actually thought maybe he was inactive for the game, then I saw him. He is listed as being in for 13 plays. Fitz was in for 15. Maybe Luke is still injured? Or is Luke heading towards that bust territory? I hope not, really liked the guy when we drafted him.

I'm telling ya, Musgrave is a WR in a TE body type trying to play big boy football as a TE. I love Luke, great young man, really great character guy with some serious juice.....BUT he does not have the nastiness or strength or technique to be of diverse value out there. In all seriousness Ben Sims and Fitz almost stress a defense more because they can both block and slip out...Musgrave can barely block and that knowledge makes him easier to put a "body on" and eliminate.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Question about "illegal contact before pass was thrown".

Why is it ok for an offensive player to "collide/come into contact with" a defensive player, but when a defensive player puts his hands out and touches the receiver, a penalty seems to be called?" Often times a receiver will actually initiate the contact, cut and fall down and draw a flag.

This goes both ways as far as I am concerned. Either you call the interference on the offense or the defense and lets not forget the offensive player knows where he is running. I would much rather prefer refs stop calling the ticky-tack ones and focus on plays when one or both players actually interferes fully with the play.

 

[tynimiller]

Agree. Golden seemed to catch the ball with his body in an awkward position. Once he caught it, that body position and momentum forced him out of bounds.

Speaking of Musgrave, where was he yesterday? 0 targets. I actually thought maybe he was inactive for the game, then I saw him. He is listed as being in for 13 plays. Fitz was in for 15. Maybe Luke is still injured? Or is Luke heading towards that bust territory? I hope not, really liked the guy when we drafted him.

Forgot to add, I never saw Luke as a diverse offering type TE that had TE1 potential. He is an offensive threat that wouldn't shock me to put up a game with 150 yards or go games without a single target. His draft position is always going to be held against him more than others, I mean even if you flipped him and Kraft positions in the draft the "bust" discussion is at least lesson quite significantly.

Musgrave was that perfect example of a special prospect type that as a team you have to likely bump up the board slightly given the intangibles he has that no amount of coaching can create in others. Intangibles bite teams both ways and Musgrave is looking like he ought to have been that special receiving TE drafted in early Day3 rather than a second rounder where you are envisioning future TE 1 level play.

 

[tynimiller]

Question about "illegal contact before pass was thrown".

Why is it ok for an offensive player to "collide/come into contact with" a defensive player, but when a defensive player puts his hands out and touches the receiver, a penalty seems to be called?" Often times a receiver will actually initiate the contact, cut and fall down and draw a flag.

This goes both ways as far as I am concerned. Either you call the interference on the offense or the defense and lets not forget the offensive player knows where he is running. I would much rather prefer refs stop calling the ticky-tack ones and focus on plays when one or both players actually interferes fully with the play.

Ref discretion of if they feel the defense eliminated the offensive players ability to execute their route...it is illegal for the offensive player to just run into a guy, but it is rarely called.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm telling ya, Musgrave is a WR in a TE body type trying to play big boy football as a TE. I love Luke, great young man, really great character guy with some serious juice.....BUT he does not have the nastiness or strength or technique to be of value out there. In all seriousness Ben Sims and Fitz almost stress a defense more because they can both block and slip out...Musgrave can barely block and that knowledge makes him easier to put a "body on" and eliminate.

Fully agree. Sadly, either the scouts missed his inability to be a good blocker or somewhere along the way, he just doesn't have the chops to do it in the NFL.

So what do you do with Musgrave?

- Keep activating him and giving him a few snaps? Hoping he improves?
- Teach him better blocking techniques? With I assume they have tried already.
- Switch him to WR? Probably too slow?
- Cut bait?

 

[tynimiller]

@Pokerbrat2000 in truth I think Gute would love to see Luke start to show something though, because he for sure is NOT in GB future plans - he just lacks any real diverse abilities needed in our TE room. If GB got offered a 6th for him today...I'd honestly probably say yes....which sucks. BUT he is so athletically gifted I think you let this season play out and if you trade him it is next year NOT THIS year. I'm only saying this because of how concerning it is that he simply doesn't seem to be able to tackle this level of TE play.

 

[tynimiller]

Fully agree. Sadly, either the scouts missed his inability to be a good blocker or somewhere along the way, he just doesn't have the chops to do it in the NFL.

So what do you do with Musgrave?

- Keep activating him and giving him a few snaps? Hoping he improves?
- Teach him better blocking techniques? With I assume they have tried already.
- Switch him to WR? Probably too slow?
- Cut bait?

He could block better in college vs lesser human beings is all.

I kinda answered in additional comment but given his intangible abilities I think you for sure let this year play out...if you are moving him that is an offseason, if you are trading him for a late day 3 you do it next year.....Musgrave could still click.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Ref discretion of if they feel the defense eliminated the offensive players ability to execute their route...it is illegal for the offensive player to just run into a guy, but it is rarely called.

Yup

The problem with the interpretation of what I highlighted is this. Receivers have all the power here to draw the penalty. They can initiate the contact with a defender that is just trying to stay close to them, and make it look like they are being impeded and draw the flag.

A few years ago refs were throwing the flag for offensive pass interference a lot more, especially on pick plays. They seemed to have backed off of that and offenses have learned less obvious ways of running pick routes.

 

[gopkrs]

I wish the refs would pay half as much attention when he is getting held as they do when he's committing the foul.

I didn't notice it yesterday but the previous two games linemen were pushing his head way back which should be a foul.

 

[gopkrs]

The problem with the interpretation of what I highlighted is this. Receivers have all the power here to draw the penalty. They can initiate the contact with a defender that is just trying to stay close to them, and make it look like they are being impeded and draw the flag.

Doubs does that very well as he did yesterday. And he keeps his eye on the ball at the same time. Trying to come back for the ball.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

@Pokerbrat2000 in truth I think Gute would love to see Luke start to show something though, because he for sure is NOT in GB future plans - he just lacks any real diverse abilities needed in our TE room. If GB got offered a 6th for him today...I'd honestly probably say yes....which sucks. BUT he is so athletically gifted I think you let this season play out and if you trade him it is next year NOT THIS year. I'm only saying this because of how concerning it is that he simply doesn't seem to be able to tackle this level of TE play.

Musgrave kind of reminds me of Deguara. Not head to head as a player, but in their time with the Packers. Both appeared to be decent draft picks with high potential. Both suffered injuries that kept being used as excuses for their lack of production. If Musgrave is healthy right now, I think our conclusions may sadly correct. Not to throw another excuse out there, but due to Cleveland having a really solid and physical D-line, and the Packers having to play backup O-lineman, MLF may have just decided that he needed all the blocking he could get out of his TE's and Musgrave was the odd man out.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Doubs does that very well as he did yesterday. And he keeps his eye on the ball at the same time. Trying to come back for the ball.

Yup and as I said, I am not saying it as a "Why are the Packers always getting screwed on PI calls?" I just plain don't like the way the refs are so hyper-sensitive to defenders touching a receiver. That said, I am guessing that the NFL knows that scoring is popular and thus refs are encouraged to throw those flags to create more scoring opportunities.

Which also brought to mind the "uncatchable ball" rule from years ago. Way back when, refs would pick up a flag or not even throw one if the pass was determined to be uncatchable. That seems to have disappeared.

 

[tynimiller]

Musgrave kind of reminds me of Deguara. Not head to head as a player, but in their time with the Packers. Both appeared to be decent draft picks with high potential. Both suffered injuries that kept being used as excuses for their lack of production. If Musgrave is healthy right now, I think our conclusions may sadly correct. Not to throw another excuse out there, but due to Cleveland having a really solid and physical D-line, and the Packers having to play backup O-lineman, MLF may have just decided that he needed all the blocking he could get out of his TE's and Musgrave was the odd man out.

Yup, Musgrave will be deployed more against teams with a weaker front but maybe better backers and db built defenses.

 

[gopkrs]

I don't know the breakdown but against the CLE front, less blockers is like putting a dead gazelle carcass infront of a pack of hyenas....

Disagree. In that the 12 wasn't working at all. With another receiver, a quick pass is more likely open. Anyway, something should be changed at halftime when what we are doing isn't working. He did try a couple of sweeps but that was all I noticed. Did Musgrave even go out for a pass? Our last drive was seeing some openings with passes. Wish we would have continued for the last 1st down. The Browns were selling out against the run.

 

[tynimiller]

Doubs does that very well as he did yesterday. And he keeps his eye on the ball at the same time. Trying to come back for the ball.

Doubs has always had NFL body type control when the ball is in the air. If Doubs was gifted with some of the intangible skills like Watson and Golden...he'd be a Top 15 WR in the league for years I think...

 

[tynimiller]

Disagree. In that the 12 wasn't working at all. With another receiver, a quick pass is more likely open. Anyway, something should be changed at halftime when what we are doing isn't working. He did try a couple of sweeps but that was all I noticed. Did Musgrave even go out for a pass? Our last drive was seeing some openings with passes. Wish we would have continued for the last 1st down. The Browns were selling out against the run.

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been tried some, but that team would have feasted had we tried it too much. I don't think folks realize how good that Brown's defense really is.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Our last drive was seeing some openings with passes. Wish we would have continued for the last 1st down. The Browns were selling out against the run.

Spot on and THAT was ALL on MLF yesterday. Reminded me of the Mike McCarthy days when the play caller gets scared and conservative. Instead of going for the jugular, they curl up in a ball and hope the clock runs out.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think folks realize how good that Brown's defense really is.

No doubt, as is the Packers defense, which is why it was such a low scoring game for 50+ minutes. Then the Packers crapped the bed by getting too conservative on offense and going into prevent on defense. I felt like the whole team, including coaches had jumped into a DeLorean and went back to 2015 and the NFCCG in Seattle.

 

[gopkrs]

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been tried some, but that team would have feasted had we tried it too much. I don't think folks realize how good that Brown's defense really is.

And I'm not saying to do it all of the time. LaFleur has got to mix that up some. imho

 

[Magooch]

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been tried some, but that team would have feasted had we tried it too much. I don't think folks realize how good that Brown's defense really is.

I'd have to see the numbers to be sure too, but I'd be curious what the Browns' blitz percentage was yesterday. To my eye test it seemed like they were doing just fine generating pressure with only rushing four and it also felt like they were sending out dime packages fairly regular with 6DB...
so with that in mind I don't know if swapping out a blocking body for an additional pass catcher when they're already getting pressure with rushing and/or 6 in coverage really does a ton for us

Now that said I do feel like LaFleur perhaps called it a bit too cautious/vanilla but I'm not sure it was a personnel package issue per se

 

[gopkrs]

I'd have to see the numbers to be sure too, but I'd be curious what the Browns' blitz percentage was yesterday. To my eye test it seemed like they were doing just fine generating pressure with only rushing four and it also felt like they were sending out dime packages fairly regular with 6DB...
so with that in mind I don't know if swapping out a blocking body for an additional pass catcher when they're already getting pressure with rushing and/or 6 in coverage really does a ton for us

Now that said I do feel like LaFleur perhaps called it a bit too cautious/vanilla but I'm not sure it was a personnel package issue per se

There is something to be said about what we were doing was not working. Another receiver could have opened the middle a little and then maybe we wouldn't have to throw short to the flat so much. Which they were not afraid of at all. Or at least send a TE into the middle. I don't think we adjusted as much as we could have. Do they even ask the receivers what might work? Doubs for instance. I had high hopes for the offense this season. It could still come together but