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more on the injury issue

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by JBlood, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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  2. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    With this group I wouldn't count on it. One of the most injury prone teams I've ever watched . I always pay extra attention to the backups because they are likely to be playing sooner than later. Two ppl guaranteed to get hurt every yr are mike Neal and Nick Perry do count on them missing time. Clay Matthews has hamstring concerns I expect him to miss at least a game or two . Lacys running style will probably cause him to mid an game or two which can also be said about Starks . I don't expect anything different with the hammys especially with the same sorry training staff so add about two to three more guys to this list Maybe Casey hayward or Jordy Nelson .
     
  3. PikeBadger

    PikeBadger Cheesehead

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  4. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    They play in warm climates?
     
  5. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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  6. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    OH NO....you cant go there... our training staff has won an "award"..... so there can't be anything wrong with them.
     
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  7. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Just want to point out that the broken bones, torn ACL, and reoccurring hamstring strains (1st time hamstring injuries could be) were not on the staff.
     
  8. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    We had that discussion before. I think a lot of people underestimate how many injuries could be prevented by proper training.
     
  9. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    I do remember having this conversation with someone. We can agree to disagree, as I'll keep saying the broken bones, torn ACL, and reoccurring hamstring strains were not on the staff.
     
  10. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    The thing is I don´t have any inside information about is as I work in totally different area, but I heard people talking about it and still bring up the NY Times article about the Stanford staff.

    The Packers have finished in 30th, 32nd, 16th and 30th in the last four years in Football Outsider Adjusted Games Lost statistics, IMO it´s not possible to blame back luck only for it.
     
  11. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Not saying the staff couldn't have any fault. I'd like to see the numbers for last year though without the injuries that I don't think were preventable.


    Enviado desde mi iPhone con Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  12. Vrill

    Vrill Cheesehead

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    Lets pretend no injuries last year. What would our final record have been? 10-6? 11-5?

    ?
     
  13. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    Um, sure, but you're going to be hard pressed to find a respectable doctor that will absolve a training staff of all culpability for certain categories of injuries...

    What's your basis for this determination?
     
  14. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    I posted this on broken bones before on a different topic:

    "I know that there are no big muscles on the front of the shin that would absorb much impact and same with the thumb.

    With Rodgers, he took a lot of force medially almost directly in line with the clavicle, which is a very small bone not meant to handle all that force. It also doesn't have muscles to pull it laterally that would help with that force. More muscle flexibility, which I doubt was even an issue as the vast majority of non athletes even have full shoulder range of motion, would not have helped. The shoulder muscles aren't a like hamstring, which lots of people have tight.

    The number one thing to do to prevent bones breaking is to load them like with lifting weights and I'm sure the Packers players have been doing that their entire athletic careers."

    As far a hamstring injures, they are the number one most reoccurring soft tissue injury in athletics. This has been known for a long time and despite LOTS of research, there is still no consensus on how to prevent them. First time injuries, yes, second and beyond, not so much.

    Finally, can't specifically strengthen an ACL. Can strengthen muscles around it, and I'm sure Buluga has some strong legs. Knee ligaments are more responsible for keeping knee bones stable and they are not meant to handle a 300+ lb guy who moves well.

    I'm not saying the staff isn't accountable for some. First time hamstring injuries, for example, are mostly preventable. Just they don't deserve blame for everything.
     
  15. AKCheese

    AKCheese Cheesehead

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    I don't know if Green Bay actually has more injuries but Green Bay fans have been complaining about injuries going back as far as I can remember. I'm sure certain years we get hit above average and other years we are healthier than average. I'm not sure how you keep Matthews from breaking his thumb (twice) Rodgers breaking his collarbone ( better use of lofty draft choices on O-linemen notwithstanding,) Finley from breaking his neck, etc. At one point this season the Seahawks had almost,their entire O-line out, they just kept winning. If things can be done to prevent SOME injuries, by all means they should be addressed, but what is really needed is a better deeper team.
     
  16. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    Do you have links? -How can we evaluate your assertions without knowing the basis for them?
     
  17. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    I'm almost done with physical therapy school. If you'd like references, I can find them. I have like 10 saved on my computer right now about the hamstrings.
     
  18. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    Thanks- those links would be interesting coming from someone with your knowledge in this area...
     
  19. Einstein McFly

    Einstein McFly Cheesehead

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    LOL, the sky is always falling, isn't it?
     
  20. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Since all details of injuries are unavailable to outsiders, all of this nonsense on who to blame is baseless. I doubt that the training staff of the Packers operates in a vacuum, unaware of what other staffs around the league are doing. Nobody here has any idea of what personal regimen of diet, supplements (legal--or otherwise) and exercise routine that individual players use. Creatine, for instance, is widely used by athletes from high school on; and there have been no good, controlled studies on its benefits or complications. Maybe creatine plus weightlifting makes muscles simply stronger than their tendinous attachments to bone, thereby leading to "pulls". Who heard of pectoral tears, triceps tears, etc years ago? The epidemic of soft tissue injuries seems, to me, related to all the strength training. But who knows? It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to blame the caregivers above all else.
     
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  21. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Idk is it?
     
  22. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Rodgers' Clavicle

    "Any severe force on the shoulder, such as falling directly onto the shoulder or falling on an outstretched arm, transfers force to the clavicle. As a result, the collarbone is one of the most commonly broken bones in the body." Johns Hopkins http://www.hopkinsortho.org/claviclefx.html

    "The clavicle is easily fractured because of its subcutaneous, relatively anterior location and frequent exposure to transmitted forces. The middle third, or midshaft, is the thinnest, least medullous area of the clavicle, and thus the most easily fractured; the lack of muscular and ligamentous support makes it vulnerable to injury. The usual mechanism of a clavicle fracture is a fall directly on the shoulder with the arm at the side." American Family Physician Journal http://www.aafp.org/journals/afp.html

    Without much muscle and ligaments to protect the clavicle, not much Rodgers could have done to prevent it and he fell the exactly same way these describe as a common mechanism of injury (with huge guys landing on top of him too).

    Hamstrings

    Here's a few hamstring links if you'd like to look through them. In general, you'll find a large prevalence of injuries with many factors being suggested as the reason for the injury, and the injury risk for a reoccurring injury is much higher. There's also a lack on consensus on how to treat them. The best one I found as far as treatment is the top link, but it hasn't got support in the four years it's been out (according to one of my professors who is one of the authors). I think the main point from them is that there are many suggested causes and treatments, but nothing specifically has tons of evidence.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2867336/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22239734
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22239734

    With Cobb's break, I haven't searched for any articles, but it's safe to say a there's nothing that would have prevented Cobb's injury. He took a helmet straight to the bone. Any loading such as running, squats, jumping, etc. strengthens bones so we can assume Cobb's bones were fine as has had to do a lot of those to get this far. Same with Matthews. If you take a big enough load to the thumb, you're going to break it. Teams aren't going to spend time doing thumb exercises anyway if there are ways to prevent it. When he broke it the second time, there certainly could have been an error in allowing him to return too early though.

    ACL

    "Several prevention programs have been developed in an attempt to decrease the incidence of noncontact ACL injuries. The focus of current prevention programs is on proper nerve/musclecontrol of the knee. These programs focus on plyometrics, balance, and strengthening/stability exercises." American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine https://www.sportsmed.org/uploadedFiles/Content/Patient/Sports_Tips/ST ACL Injury 08.pdf

    Plyometrics, balance, and strengthening/stability exercises are somethings that I would think are normal parts of NFL strength and conditioning programs. If they aren't a part of the Packers system, then there could be some fault for putting players at a higher ACL risk.

    But looking at the very high prevalence of ACL injuries across the league, which has been increasing in recent years, there's certainly room for improvement on ACL prevention. http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/95723/inside-slant-big-spike-in-acl-injuries_

    Hope these help.
     
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  23. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    It's falling in white, fluffy flakes right now with a foot of it to come. :D

    This is an argument that none of us will ever win. Yes we have been more injury prone than other teams in the past few seasons. It could be due to training, it could be due to team bowling night on Mondays, it could be due to eating Taco Bell or organic foods, it could be due to team calisthenics, or just the football gods trying to make life harder on Packers fans. WE WILL NEVER KNOW
     
  24. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    I have to very strongly disagree about the benefits of creatine as a systematic review by the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition says otherwise. A systematic review is an article that compiles data from lots of studies it deems well done and it's the highest level of evidence in research.

    http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/33

    "Regardless of the form, supplementation with creatine has regularly shown to increase strength, fat free mass, and muscle morphology with concurrent heavy resistance training more than resistance training alone. Creatine may be of benefit in other modes of exercise such as high-intensity sprints or endurance training. Even though not all individuals respond similarly to creatine supplementation, it is generally accepted that its supplementation increases creatine storage and promotes a faster regeneration of adenosine triphosphate between high intensity exercises. These improved outcomes will increase performance and promote greater training adaptations. More recent research suggests that creatine supplementation in amounts of 0.1 g/kg of body weight combined with resistance training improves training adaptations at a cellular and sub-cellular level"
     
  25. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    Creatine is supposed to let you get out an extra few lifting reps when normally you would reach fatigue and failure. It adds water weight and the rash of baseball hamstring injures over 10 years ago were attributed to it. I don't think the benefit of getting a few extra reps in the gym is worth potentially missing time on the field.

    I have said many times before that I only have 2 issues...1 with the Athletic Training staff and 1 with the Strength Staff.

    It seems like the ACL rehabs take FOREVER in Green Bay compared to other teams. I am very interested to see how Bulaga's rehab goes. It sounded like he only had an ACL injury and not all of the other additional things that tend to occur along with it. If he isn't back for day one of training camp I will renew my concerns over this issue.

    As for the Strength Staff....I put the hamstrings on them. It wasn't just one or two or three it was a lot and more than half the defensive backs all had them this year. Being a CSCS and trying to use some deductive reasoning.....it is my theory that Lovat is having them do some exercises that are making the quad to hamstring strength ratio too quad dominant. I don't like the new found love for the front squat for this reason. IMO....back squat with full ROM, dead lift, physioball hamstring curls and maximal backward sprints are the way to keep those hammy's in shape. I have only had 2 athletes injure theirs in 8 years....1 was day to day and it was from lunging at first base and awkwardly hitting it out of stride and the other was pretty mild and a 2 week return to full go deal.
     

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