Fixing the run Defense

[OldSchool101]

This may surprise you but now after the pain has subsided. I'm appreciative that we had our butts handed to us week 1. We need to be humble and off the radar. Now we know precisely what areas we need emphasis correcting and I think we will improve gradually. There is a great deal of truth in peaking at the right time. Ask the 2007 Giants who we blew out in their house Week 2 of 2007.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Relax fellas, it is the first game. The Hawks ran a lot of new stuff that nobody has seen and you guys have a lot of new moving parts on defense. It was a bad night to play them. Wait till the 2nd game before you jump off the bridge. The first game is difficult. You guys will have better tape on the Jets and will be much better prepared. If you lay an egg against New York, then you can panic. Your team might still be elite, first games are difficult home or away. We lost to Arizona 20-17 to start out the 2012 season and then beat them 54-0 in the rematch. Too early to make any assumptions.

Good points, thanks. I'm not bothered so much that they lost to a better team. What bothers me is that they looked and played scared. Just played tight. I understand the Hawks defense is intimidating, but these are all big boys.

But you're right, just a first game. Lots of weird stuff happened last weekend. It will get sorted out.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

This may surprise you but now after the pain has subsided. I'm appreciative that we had our butts handed to us week 1. We need to be humble and off the radar. Now we know precisely what areas we need emphasis correcting and I think we will improve gradually. There is a great deal of truth in peaking at the right time. Ask the 2007 Giants who we blew out in their house Week 2 of 2007.

Another good point. The sky is not falling. Yeah I remember 2007/2008. The Giants beat us at home in the cold. That's all that matters - who is playing well in December and January - and that one game in February!

 

[rodell330]

Another good point. The sky is not falling. Yeah I remember 2007/2008. The Giants beat us at home in the cold. That's all that matters - who is playing well in December and January - and that one game in February!

That's all fine and dandy but there's no guarantee that the Packers will be playing in those games . This team has potential yes, but lots of teams with potential underachieve every year in the nFL. We limped into the playoffs last yr and got beat at home by a more physical team with a better defense. It's not accident that we havnt gone deep in the playoffs since the SB...look up the defensive performance in those loses. That's why it irks me when people say don't panic after the defense has a sorry performance! Ok so what should we do then?

 

[OldSchool101]

That's all fine and dandy but there's no guarantee that the Packers will be playing in those games . This team has potential yes, but lots of teams with potential underachieve every year in the nFL. We limped into the playoffs last yr and got beat at home by a more physical team with a better defense. It's not accident that we havnt gone deep in the playoffs since the SB...look up the defensive performance in those loses. That's why it irks me when people say don't panic after the defense has a sorry performance! Ok so what should we do then?

I don't have a prolific response to sooth your legitimate concerns.. And I cant provide you a written guarantee for success. One difficult part about being a fan is having faith in your team when they're playing sub par.
it's one week at a time. Right now we just need 1 in the "W" column to turn the tide.

 

[rodell330]

I just pray offense scores a ton of points because I just can't drink the kool aid . I don't trust the defense and for good reason.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

That's all fine and dandy but there's no guarantee that the Packers will be playing in those games . This team has potential yes, but lots of teams with potential underachieve every year in the nFL. We limped into the playoffs last yr and got beat at home by a more physical team with a better defense. It's not accident that we havnt gone deep in the playoffs since the SB...look up the defensive performance in those loses. That's why it irks me when people say don't panic after the defense has a sorry performance! Ok so what should we do then?

Well rodell it's hard to disagree with you, so I won't. Sitting here right now, I can see the Packers as a one and done playoff team. Sound familiar? But I can't find anyone to blame? TT has done all he can with the defense. Maybe Capers, who will surely be gone if it's a one and done year. It would help if the defense had an on-field leader. Likely candidates would be Matthews or Shields but they haven't stepped up. I just don't like the feel of panic so early in a season.

 

[TJV]

There’s a good article on jsonline titled, “Packers' defense will see options again”. It talks about the Packers getting good pressure against Seattle when they passed out of a “traditional offense”. That is something they fixed – at least against Seattle. The obvious problems arose vs. the run and with read option plays. Those problems go back to the playoffs after the 2012 season.

And the bad news is that the New York Jets and their mobile quarterback, Geno Smith, are on deck waiting to run their version of the read-option Sunday at Lambeau Field. When will the Packers' nightmare end? "I think pretty much everybody in the league is running it except for a couple of teams," outside linebacker Julius Peppers said. "We're going to see it. We'll be fine." Perhaps they will, but that's what defensive coordinator Dom Capers and his staff worked on all last year. But just one week into the 2014 season, it's an issue again. The Packers have gone about improving their athleticism and team speed on defense for the very reason Peppers cited, which is that more offenses are using athletic quarterbacks to keep the opposition on its heels.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...-see-options-again-b99349574z1-274850571.html

I hope Peppers is prescient but if he isn’t, Capers and his staff are out of excuses. Those types of plays certainly can’t be a surprise to them and they have enough athletic players that ought to be able to stop those plays. As the article notes, the new 4-3 allows them to have 5 LBs on the field. It looks like Pennel will be active and that’s good. Even if does well, to improve the run D this season, Guion and Boyd are going to have to step up and defend the run from the interior of the DL.

 

[brandon2348]

It's crazy how I've heard this phrase for 3 yrs in a row now haha. So when should we hit the " panic button" on the defense then?? Week 6? Week 10? The draft? Haha

I know but this defense has a lot of young guys on it. The talent is there. This defense has a lot of new faces on it and IMO to give up on it after week 1 way to early.

 

[Forderick]

I know but this defense has a lot of young guys on it. The talent is there. This defense has a lot of new faces on it and IMO to give up on it after week 1 way to early.

Same old story every year. Capers should have been fired 2 years ago. How people can still have patience with the poor tackling the inability to stop the read option and just awful fundementals is beyond me at this point. I am not giving up but I don't expect a good defence until I actually see one emerge. And so far its the same ol same ol bad defence out there.

 

[rodell330]

Same old story every year. Capers should have been fired 2 years ago. How people can still have patience with the poor tackling the inability to stop the read option and just awful fundementals is beyond me at this point. I am not giving up but I don't expect a good defence until I actually see one emerge. And so far its the same ol same ol bad defence out there.

Exactly! I'll believe it when I see it. You'd think they learned by now smh

 

[PackerDNA]

Good defense- in any sport- starts with being strong up the middle. At NT and ILB, the Packers just aren't very good. Not much in the way of talent, speed, or physical play. Since there's not gonna be an extra draft or free agency period before next year, that's unlikely to improve much, if any, this season.
They'll have to rely heavily on good schemes and calls.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Good defense- in any sport- starts with being strong up the middle. At NT and ILB, the Packers just aren't very good. Not much in the way of talent, speed, or physical play. Since there's not gonna be an extra draft or free agency period before next year, that's unlikely to improve much, if any, this season.
They'll have to rely heavily on good schemes and calls.

That' depressing.

 

[wist43]

Good defense- in any sport- starts with being strong up the middle. At NT and ILB, the Packers just aren't very good. Not much in the way of talent, speed, or physical play. Since there's not gonna be an extra draft or free agency period before next year, that's unlikely to improve much, if any, this season.
They'll have to rely heavily on good schemes and calls.

I agree that good defense starts on the LOS, and being strong up the middle - unfortunately, TT/MM/Capers disagree. Everyone and their mother can see that we're dead at ILB; yet, Brad Jones and AJ Hawk are still our starters.

MM said he was going to get involved with the defense to ensure that the problems were addressed and fixed - and what we got was smaller and weaker along the DL, and a base defense that went from a weak front 2-4, to a weak front 2-5...

MM did not have to go along with Capers gameplan that called for only 4 active DL in the opener, but of course he did - and then when we got predictably gashed in the run game, we got the same old tired speech about "... we'll get that cleaned up".

Eventually a rational person has to conclude that the Packer philosophy on defense is all about finesse; that the NFL is a passing league - and only a passing league, e.g. planning to stop the run and control the LOS are not really necessary; etc.

Combine those realities with TT's perpetual youth movement, Capers complicated and unsound coverage schemes, and you have a recipe for disaster. The players are not good, the coaching is terrible... there's no fixing this mess - and nothing will be done about it.

The Packers braintrust believes that stopping the run is incidental, and therefore need not be accounted for in acquiring personnel or formulating gameplans - they believe that every play is going to be a pass, so they design their defense to stop the pass - and only the pass. Unfortunately - they don't even do that well.

 

[weeds]

I just pray offense scores a ton of points because I just can't drink the kool aid . I don't trust the defense and for good reason.

What HE said ...

Might I recommend that the only way THIS defense stops the run is with concrete barricades constructed and moved around after each down. I'm on record as despising the 3-4 and it's variations ... and, not understanding Dom Capers' schemes any longer... I mean, the Pack run a 'finesse' defense. Translated ... soft. They'll yield yardage in the hopes that the opponent's offense will make a mistake and have to settle for 3, or turn the ball over (the Pack don't create turnovers) ... I wonder how the D-line liked getting ***** slapped after their self-appointed spokesman proclaimed he was tired of being *****-slapped? Hasn't been much said about that...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I was actually shocked when I read McCarthy's Q&A with Bob McGinn today after this answer:

Q. Can you stop the run consistently with a 6-footer in Mike Daniels and a 285-pounder in Datone Jones as the base ends, lean inside backers and Mike Neal at times playing down at a much lighter weight?

A. You're taking three men, their primary job responsibility, that's not it. It's a rotation. The difference that we want this year, we don't want our interior linemen playing eight, nine plays in a row. Where you're spending this much time running in and off. We want those guys to play more in four- , five-play increments. It's more about the fresh, active player and utilizing their ability. Hey, we're built for third down. That's what we want to get teams to because that will be our strength, and it complements the way our offense plays. This whole change ...it's not really change ...this adjustment on defense is really trying to get the offense and the defense to play more the same way as far as the approach to the game.

He should have actually mentioned the defense is built for third-and-long. So it seems like the coaching staff knows the Packers can't stop the run and just pray they'll somehow get in favourable 3rd down situations to rush the passer. Not a solid plan that will work out a lot of times IMO.

 

[rodell330]

I was actually shocked when I read McCarthy's Q&A with Bob McGinn today after this answer:



He should have actually mentioned the defense is built for third-and-long. So it seems like the coaching staff knows the Packers can't stop the run and just pray they'll somehow get in favourable 3rd down situations to rush the passer. Not a solid plan that will work out a lot of times IMO.

This column confirms that the Packers are not built to stop the run and it sounds as tho they are content on the bend but don't break nonsense. Well, they bend and break. I've never seen a team run a BASE 3-4 with linemen that light and have much success. If the defense is built to put pressure on the qb in hopes of forcing turnovers it's a horrible ideal, simply because if I'm running the ball down your throat whyin the world do I need to throw the ball?

TT, MM and the staff just needs to own up to the fact that the 3-4 isn't working. Hasn't since 2010 and the draft picks drafted to help improve it? Are either injury prone...or just not effective in the scheme. It's no accident that it's not working with this personnel. In fact I'll do you one better. The year we won the SB and had a good defense look who was on the line. Cullen Jenkins at DE ..a guy who could rush the passer from the outside and defend the run at 300 pounds. Bj Raji at NT who could collapse the pocket and but big enough at 335 to eat up blockers and help ilbs. Then on the other end Ryan Pickett at 337 ate up blockers and although he wasn't big in the pass rushing dept he was big and strong enough to push tackles into the backfield and didn't get swallowed up by bigger tackles.

If the Packers are going to stick with this scheme get these thin dudes off the line please and finally bring in people who fit the scheme which is the biggest reason why it's not working. I challenge everyone who watches today's game to count how many negative running plays the Jets have as well as how many times not the lbs...but the guys on the line get pressure on Geno Smith. That will tell you all you need to know about where the defense is running this scheme with this personnel .

 

[easyk83]

This column confirms that the Packers are not built to stop the run and it sounds as tho they are content on the bend but don't break nonsense. Well, they bend and break. I've never seen a team run a BASE 3-4 with linemen that light and have much success. If the defense is built to put pressure on the qb in hopes of forcing turnovers it's a horrible ideal, simply because if I'm running the ball down your throat whyin the world do I need to throw the ball?

TT, MM and the staff just needs to own up to the fact that the 3-4 isn't working. Hasn't since 2010 and the draft picks drafted to help improve it? Are either injury prone...or just not effective in the scheme. It's no accident that it's not working with this personnel. In fact I'll do you one better. The year we won the SB and had a good defense look who was on the line. Cullen Jenkins at DE ..a guy who could rush the passer from the outside and defend the run at 300 pounds. Bj Raji at NT who could collapse the pocket and but big enough at 335 to eat up blockers and help ilbs. Then on the other end Ryan Pickett at 337 ate up blockers and although he wasn't big in the pass rushing dept he was big and strong enough to push tackles into the backfield and didn't get swallowed up by bigger tackles.

If the Packers are going to stick with this scheme get these thin dudes off the line please and finally bring in people who fit the scheme which is the biggest reason why it's not working. I challenge everyone who watches today's game to count how many negative running plays the Jets have as well as how many times not the lbs...but the guys on the line get pressure on Geno Smith. That will tell you all you need to know about where the defense is running this scheme with this personnel .

We spent most of that year with a light 2-4 defensive front. Two space eaters in the middle, usually Pick and Raji and then Matthews and Zombo on the ends. The Packers are trying to develop a more flexible front with more body types that can play pass run, rush the passer or even drop into coverage. IMHO it wasn't scheme that was at fault against Seattle but rather 2 players in particular. Brad Jones and Letroy Guion played as poorly as I can remember anyone playing at those two positions. Guion was getting moved around so easily that he was functioning like an extra blocker for Seattle. Brad Jones, was clueless in his run fits and a disaster in coverage.

The Coaches haven't said it but Jones basically played his way to the bench and Guion might have already fallen below Pennel on the depth chart.

 

[easyk83]

If this defense continues to struggle I say keep the scheme but bring in someone else. This group and front office would benefit from someone who runs a simpler variant of the 34 and Teddy can go back to drafting the kinds of high upside types that won us a Super Bowl.

 

[TJV]

It seems a couple of posters are ignoring the fact Capers played a 4-3 against the Seahawks in the first half. It too was ineffective. Also after a decent start last season against the run, a DL composed of Raji, Pickett, and Wilson – two behemoths and a 300+ pounder - played the run very poorly. Combine that with captainWIMM's post about the average size of DL in the 3-4 tells me it's not the size of the players - or IMO necessarily the scheme. As captainWIMM posted, stopping the run is all about the talent of the front 7.

So what about the talent of the Packers front 7? A healthy Matthews is an all pro. I think it’s reasonable to expect the addition of Peppers will make a difference. Most of us thought Daniels was on the verge of being a difference maker but against the Seahawks, he was bad and Datone Jones did nothing. Who else can realistically be called a difference maker?

OTOH, here’s the good news:
• Yes the D was bad vs. the run but got good pressure in the passing game.
• I wish it were not because of injury, but Brad Jones will be replaced as a starter. The best case scenario will be if Lattimore grabs this opportunity and keeps the starting job.
• IMO it’s unlikely Daniels will continue the crappy play he displayed at Seattle.
• Again the circumstances are unfortunate but it’s likely Pennel will get a shot at anchoring the interior of the DL. It’s unrealistic to expect him to duplicate Raji’s disruptive play (at his best) but he’s got to better than Guion was vs. the run.
• The depth and talent in the defensive backfield should help the play of the front 7.
• Most importantly, it matters one-hell-of-a-lot more how a team plays at the end of the season than how it begins. The Packers have changed the parts of their front 7 and have also changed their strategy. Peppers is playing a new role, it’s realistic IMO to expect him to get more comfortable and better. Datone is young enough to expect him to get better with experience; same for Boyd. DBs like Clinton-Dix, Richardson, and Hyde should get better as the season goes on, and they should help the run D.

None of that guarantees anything of course. All I’m saying is that there is still a realistic hope this D improves as the season goes on.

 

[lambeaulambo]

This continuous lack of defensive accountability has to be addressed, period. If it means a new GM, HC, and DC then so be it!!

 

[easyk83]

Anyone else toy with the idea of having Sean Richardson bulk up and moving him to ILB? He was mostly an in the box safety at Vandy, but he runs a 4.43 at 216 pounds, has decent height and length. I could see him turning into the kind of fast athletic sideline to sideline LB that we've been missing.

 

[TJV]

Anyone else toy with the idea of having Sean Richardson bulk up and moving him to ILB? He was mostly an in the box safety at Vandy, but he runs a 4.43 at 216 pounds, has decent height and length. I could see him turning into the kind of fast athletic sideline to sideline LB that we've been missing.

I'm not sure if you saw this earlier in this thread: https://www.packerforum.com/threads/fixing-the-run-defense.54157/page-2#post-569517 The guy who writes Packer Update suggested Richardson at ILB and I agreed - although neither of us mentioned his bulking up. I am anxious to see how Lattimore does there - he's certainly built for the position better than Richardson currently.

 

[John Storbeck]

HAHA see the sky isn't falling fellas. I will say objectively that you need to shore up your running defense (not that you aren't aware).