Fixing the run Defense

[easyk83]

After Marshawn Lynch gashed our defense for 110 yards on the ground it goes without saying that we have a problem here. Is this something that's fixable in the season or are we going to have to wait for the off season to address this issue?

Last night our problem stemmed primarily from a Nose Tackle who proved incapable of fighting off reach blocks and Brad Jones who seemed incapable of making a proper run fit, of course this is tough when LeTroy Guion spends the entire evening on your lap.

I think the quick fixes are as follows:

1) Move AJ Hawk to the Mack and play Lattimore at the Buck. Hawk has become a serviceable cover backer, and the increased physicality of both players together should help the defense. You play Jones because he's supposed to be the best cover linebacker not named Clay Matthews, but yesterday he was just brutal. Showed terrible feet, no backpedal and kept panic grabbing.

2) Either move Mike Daniels to Nose or start feeding him snaps at that position. Mike Daniels is not a prototype nose tackle but I think he'd be surprisingly good at the position, kinda like Jay Ratliff for the Cowboys. He's small but he plays with great power and leverage, I have to imagine that he'd be leaps and bounds better than what Guion showed. Work Pennell in as either Daniels' backup or as a contributor at the position.

3) Start Boyd as the RDE, no pass rush but a good run defender.

4) Play Peppers with his hand in the dirt more often, should help the team spell Jones and Boyd more often.

5) Guion should be relegated to backup/situational duty, he's not a starter.

6) Call up Ryan Picket, he doesn't have much but 10-15 snaps a game would be a positive. That and he could mentor the young guys.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

After Marshawn Lynch gashed our defense for 110 yards on the ground it goes without saying that we have a problem here. Is this something that's fixable in the season or are we going to have to wait for the off season to address this issue?

Last night our problem stemmed primarily from a Nose Tackle who proved incapable of fighting off reach blocks and Brad Jones who seemed incapable of making a proper run fit, of course this is tough when LeTroy Guion spends the entire evening on your lap.

I think the quick fixes are as follows:

1) Move AJ Hawk to the Mack and play Lattimore at the Buck. Hawk has become a serviceable cover backer, and the increased physicality of both players together should help the defense. You play Jones because he's supposed to be the best cover linebacker not named Clay Matthews, but yesterday he was just brutal. Showed terrible feet, no backpedal and kept panic grabbing.

2) Either move Mike Daniels to Nose or start feeding him snaps at that position. Mike Daniels is not a prototype nose tackle but I think he'd be surprisingly good at the position, kinda like Jay Ratliff for the Cowboys. He's small but he plays with great power and leverage, I have to imagine that he'd be leaps and bounds better than what Guion showed. Work Pennell in as either Daniels' backup or as a contributor at the position.

3) Start Boyd as the RDE, no pass rush but a good run defender.

4) Play Peppers with his hand in the dirt more often, should help the team spell Jones and Boyd more often.

5) Guion should be relegated to backup/situational duty, he's not a starter.

6) Call up Ryan Picket, he doesn't have much but 10-15 snaps a game would be a positive. That and he could mentor the young guys.

I don´t think the Packers will be able to fix the run defense immediately. Aside of Mike Daniels there´s just not enough talent on the DL and at ILB to fix it. It´s possible Mike Pennel and Jamari Lattimore or Sam Barrington could improve the unit, but I wouldn´t expect big things out of them, there´s are reason why they´re behind the starters on the depth chart.

 

[easyk83]

I don´t think the Packers will be able to fix the run defense immediately. Aside of Mike Daniels there´s just not enough talent on the DL and at ILB to fix it. It´s possible Mike Pennel and Jamari Lattimore or Sam Barrington could improve the unit, but I wouldn´t expect big things out of them, there´s are reason why they´re behind the starters on the depth chart.

It is worth noting that we played almost the entire game in either nickel, hybrid nickel or even light 43 defenses. We might have played the run better if we countered there 2 tightend sets with more base defense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It is worth noting that we played almost the entire game in either nickel, hybrid nickel or even light 43 defenses. We might have played the run better if we countered there 2 tightend sets with more base defense.

Maybe, we´ll never know. It´s a fact though that Guion, Datone Jones, Hawk and Brad Jones looked awful against the run.

 

[easyk83]

Maybe, we´ll never know. It´s a fact though that Guion, Datone Jones, Hawk and Brad Jones looked awful against the run.

Jones and Guion looked awul. Hawk and Datone might have looked better with schematic changes.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Hawk and Datone might have looked better with schematic changes.

I´ll believe it when I see it.

 

[DarkHelmet]

I think the quick fixes are as follows:

Agree with all the suggestions. Even Mulumba has got to be no worse than B. Jones. One other point: our guys just don't hit hard enough. The way to slow down fast, tricky players like Harvin et al it to hit them really hard when you get the chance. The Seahawks hit hard when they tackle. Our guys just don't. Maybe because they aren't fast enough to get to the point of attack with any momentum.

 

[DarkHelmet]

Was Pennel even dressed last night? I don't remember seeing him on the field.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Was Pennel even dressed last night? I don't remember seeing him on the field.

Pennel was inactive for yesterday´s game.

 

[DarkHelmet]

I wonder if they'll put him on the active roster for next week. Of course, they may decide they need the help more at O-line and ILB.

 

[easyk83]

I wonder if they'll put him on the active roster for next week. Of course, they may decide they need the help more at O-line and ILB.

They probably will, they're going to need to get him going and contributing if they're going to have a chance this year.

 

[GoPGo]

You guys do know that pretty much nobody stops Seattle's run game, right?

 

[wist43]

Listening to PRN radio pregame, Journal Sentinal writer Tom Silverstein said the Packers were going with only 4 DL active b/c the game plan called for a lot of 2-4 nickel - which of course proved true, and was entirely predictable since that is Capers default base alignment.

Silverstein said the extra defensive linemen were unnecessary b/c of the amount of nickel Capers planned to run.

If Capers can't bring himself to play more 3-4 base against a run heavy team like Seattle, when in God's name would playing the 3-4 ever be a consideration for him??

Yes the ILB's are laughable, and the DL we did have out there performed poorly - but on the whole, the entire defensive front was put in an impossible situation by Capers. We're simply picking up this year, where we left off last year - only with a couple of new faces.

The players didn't perform well, but they are being put in impossible situations by the coaching staff.

 

[raj34]

After Marshawn Lynch gashed our defense for 110 yards on the ground it goes without saying that we have a problem here. Is this something that's fixable in the season or are we going to have to wait for the off season to address this issue?

Last night our problem stemmed primarily from a Nose Tackle who proved incapable of fighting off reach blocks and Brad Jones who seemed incapable of making a proper run fit, of course this is tough when LeTroy Guion spends the entire evening on your lap.

I think the quick fixes are as follows:

1) Move AJ Hawk to the Mack and play Lattimore at the Buck. Hawk has become a serviceable cover backer, and the increased physicality of both players together should help the defense. You play Jones because he's supposed to be the best cover linebacker not named Clay Matthews, but yesterday he was just brutal. Showed terrible feet, no backpedal and kept panic grabbing.

2) Either move Mike Daniels to Nose or start feeding him snaps at that position. Mike Daniels is not a prototype nose tackle but I think he'd be surprisingly good at the position, kinda like Jay Ratliff for the Cowboys. He's small but he plays with great power and leverage, I have to imagine that he'd be leaps and bounds better than what Guion showed. Work Pennell in as either Daniels' backup or as a contributor at the position.

3) Start Boyd as the RDE, no pass rush but a good run defender.

4) Play Peppers with his hand in the dirt more often, should help the team spell Jones and Boyd more often.

5) Guion should be relegated to backup/situational duty, he's not a starter.

6) Call up Ryan Picket, he doesn't have much but 10-15 snaps a game would be a positive. That and he could mentor the young guys.

Sounds like a plan to me. I would feel a lot better if you were actually employed by the Packers though. Capers is pretty stuck in his ways.

 

[raj34]

It is worth noting that we played almost the entire game in either nickel, hybrid nickel or even light 43 defenses. We might have played the run better if we countered there 2 tightend sets with more base defense.

That's whats frightening about this whole thing. The nickel personnel wasn't some ad hoc game day adjustment we were forced into. That was actually The Plan. Is Capers some sort of SF/Seattle mole?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I wonder if they'll put him on the active roster for next week. Of course, they may decide they need the help more at O-line and ILB.

Well, if Bulaga is out vs. the Jets we don't even have a backup tackle on the roster. And I'm not sure Jeremy Vujnovich can play.

 

[John Storbeck]

Relax fellas, it is the first game. The Hawks ran a lot of new stuff that nobody has seen and you guys have a lot of new moving parts on defense. It was a bad night to play them. Wait till the 2nd game before you jump off the bridge. The first game is difficult. You guys will have better tape on the Jets and will be much better prepared. If you lay an egg against New York, then you can panic. Your team might still be elite, first games are difficult home or away. We lost to Arizona 20-17 to start out the 2012 season and then beat them 54-0 in the rematch. Too early to make any assumptions.

 

[easyk83]

That's whats frightening about this whole thing. The nickel personnel wasn't some ad hoc game day adjustment we were forced into. That was actually The Plan. Is Capers some sort of SF/Seattle mole?

Well the plan to play a hybrid nickel doesn't strike me as a bad one with this defense. Peppers is an OLB who also has the size and length to be a legit 34 DE. The trouble is that when you have an NT getting pushed around like Guion was on reach blocks it's going to be tough to execute. I do suspect that Raji playing would have made our run defense look a lot better. I like the hybrid nickel and think it's a very flexible defense, but last night we didn't have the personnel to counter Seattle when they went big and ran over us. Whether youre running 24 nickel or 25 nickel you need at least one solid NT.

In the past we played a lot of 24 nickel with basically two Nose tackles clogging the interior of the opponents O-line. This has worked in the past as long as we'd gotten great production from the NTs. Against Seattle we went smaller along the DL and bigger along the rest of our defense. Except for when we tried to counter their 2 tight end sets with a nickle defense they simply shoved us around.

I like the idea of using Daniels at NT, with Pennell and Guion working in. I still like Datone Jones as a player but he has no business being on the field unless A) its part of the base defense or B) its an obvious passing down. Datone Jones trying to play 24 nickel on a run down, not going to be pretty.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

You don't reshuffle your whole line because of a bad first outing. you go back look at film and make adjustments to your play. Guion just came back after being out for all of camp. Jones didn't play much last season. They got spanked last night. They will watch the film, make adjustments to their game. If things are still bad after a couple of more games with no improvement, then you make major changes. 10 days before the next game, Relax and enjoy the first weekend of football, it's 150 days before the superbowl.

 

[easyk83]

You don't reshuffle your whole line because of a bad first outing. you go back look at film and make adjustments to your play. Guion just came back after being out for all of camp. Jones didn't play much last season. They got spanked last night. They will watch the film, make adjustments to their game. If things are still bad after a couple of more games with no improvement, then you make major changes. 10 days before the next game, Relax and enjoy the first weekend of football, it's 150 days before the superbowl.

That is a good and sober minded thought, I guess I was overreacting because of how terrible he played.

 

[wist43]

Well the plan to play a hybrid nickel doesn't strike me as a bad one with this defense. Peppers is an OLB who also has the size and length to be a legit 34 DE. The trouble is that when you have an NT getting pushed around like Guion was on reach blocks it's going to be tough to execute. I do suspect that Raji playing would have made our run defense look a lot better. I like the hybrid nickel and think it's a very flexible defense, but last night we didn't have the personnel to counter Seattle when they went big and ran over us. Whether youre running 24 nickel or 25 nickel you need at least one solid NT.

In the past we played a lot of 24 nickel with basically two Nose tackles clogging the interior of the opponents O-line. This has worked in the past as long as we'd gotten great production from the NTs. Against Seattle we went smaller along the DL and bigger along the rest of our defense. Except for when we tried to counter their 2 tight end sets with a nickle defense they simply shoved us around.

I like the idea of using Daniels at NT, with Pennell and Guion working in. I still like Datone Jones as a player but he has no business being on the field unless A) its part of the base defense or B) its an obvious passing down. Datone Jones trying to play 24 nickel on a run down, not going to be pretty.

Playing nickel, whether it is a 2-4 or 3-3, absolutely has its place - just not on run downs.

All an OC need do to get Capers to jump into his default 2-4 is throw 3 WR's on the field, and then there is guanteed success of running it down our throats. What we saw last night was simply the continuation of what Capers has been doing for the last 3 years - only instead of Neal at OLB, he has Peppers.

1st and 10, 3rd and 1... unless the offense goes 4 or 5 wides, I would absolutely be in base - especially against a team like the Seahawks who are more than likely going to run the ball.

Capers needs to figure out a way to play base against 3 WR's, or we're going to continue to get run over game after game. We gave up 207 yds rushing last night - most of that against that nickel defense.

Capers and the Packers have learned absolutely nothing from the last few years... all they did was change out a couple of players, and kept with the same fundamentally flawed scheme.

By playing the 2-4 on run downs, Capers is conceding control of the LOS - and that is what is resulting in continually getting gashed in the run game.

 

[easyk83]

Playing nickel, whether it is a 2-4 or 3-3, absolutely has its place - just not on run downs.

All an OC need do to get Capers to jump into his default 2-4 is throw 3 WR's on the field, and then there is guanteed success of running it down our throats. What we saw last night was simply the continuation of what Capers has been doing for the last 3 years - only instead of Neal at OLB, he has Peppers.

1st and 10, 3rd and 1... unless the offense goes 4 or 5 wides, I would absolutely be in base - especially against a team like the Seahawks who are more than likely going to run the ball.

Capers needs to figure out a way to play base against 3 WR's, or we're going to continue to get run over game after game. We gave up 207 yds rushing last night - most of that against that nickel defense.

Capers and the Packers have learned absolutely nothing from the last few years... all they did was change out a couple of players, and kept with the same fundamentally flawed scheme.

By playing the 2-4 on run downs, Capers is conceding control of the LOS - and that is what is resulting in continually getting gashed in the run game.

Capers needs to trust his ILBs more in those situations, Ive seen Hawk run good trail cover patterns. Just bracket the 3rd wide receiver and go single high safety. Shields Williams are one of the best CB tandems in the league you should be able to trust them with single high coverage against most receivers. That 24 scheme worked a heck of a lot better back when we had Woodson playing in the box and Pick wasn't broken down.

 

[wist43]

Capers needs to trust his ILBs more in those situations, Ive seen Hawk run good trail cover patterns. Just bracket the 3rd wide receiver and go single high safety. Shields Williams are one of the best CB tandems in the league you should be able to trust them with single high coverage against most receivers. That 24 scheme worked a heck of a lot better back when we had Woodson playing in the box and Pick wasn't broken down.

We don't have the players to run it... the players we have are much better suited to running a 3-3.

That said, you can't consistently, and stubbornly run the nickel on down/distance situations that are as likely, or even more likely to be a running play, just b/c the offense throws 3 wides out there.

As I've been saying, if I'm the opposing OC, I would throw 3 wides out there every down and run it down the Packers throat until Capers did something else to stop me - but of course we now have 3+ years of Capers doing nothing to adjust... so it is entirely predicatable that OC's will simply continue to run at us when we're in the nickel.

Capers came out early and played some 3-4 base, and some other looks that crowded the line and sought to fight for control of the LOS, but after the 2nd quarter began, he reverted to his default 2-4 base, and that was it, we were run over the rest of the night.

207 rushing yds allowed... there's no excuse for that. That isn't players, that is coaching.

 

[TJV]

It's not as if Capers didn't try something else. From Silverstein's article:

It looked like Capers went with what looked like a 4-3 defense at times, pulling Clay Matthews from his outside linebacker position to an inside position and going with Mike Neal at one end spot, Peppers at the other and two defensive linemen. Matthews was essentially stacked next to Hawk and Jones behind the linemen.

It didn't work.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...-by-marshawn-lynch-b99344723z1-274057691.html

The biggest change that should happen IMO is Brad Jones needs to be demoted. Even beyond the obvious reason (the way he played) if McCarthy wants to make a point about being accountable, the best way to do that is to demote the worst player starting on D. In the unlikely event that happens, I would prefer to see how Barrington would do in his place. Then Hawk would have primary coverage responsibilities between the two. Supposedly they like Lattimore, but I prefer Barrington because I think he'd be better vs. the run. If Lattimore's coverage skills are that much better than Hawks, then line him up next to Barrington. However, I'm certainly not suggesting any of this would have turned that horrible performance around last night.

 

[Mile High Packer Backer]

I am amazed at how sloppy the game was in terms of prep (coaching) and execution (players). Everybody needs to raise it to another level.

-Personnel changes at NT and use a rotation at ILB;
-Remembering how to tackle and having the discipline to not be sucked in of fakes;
-I don't care what formation or coverage scheme they use, as long as it is appropriate for the down, distance, and tendencies of the opponent. I just want to see them crowd the line pre-snap, jam the WRs, and own the middle of the field.