Fire Matt LaFleur

How many wins does MLF need to keep his job?

  • 2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • 4

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 7

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • 8+

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • He shouldn’t be fired this year no matter what

    Votes: 20 62.5%

  • Total voters
    32

adambr2

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I can agree with this. Maybe a franchise needs to hit rock bottom sometimes, and build it back up with some high draft picks. Tomlin is the longest tenured coach in the league, makes the Playoffs almost every year, which helps/allows him to keep his job.
And frankly, I think the Steelers are probably long overdue for a new face at HC.

I like Tomlin. I think he’s a good HC. Things just get stale sometimes. It’s the cycle of things and it’s nobody’s fault.

I’d much rather face a rebuild than do what the Steelers do every year. Always relevant, but everyone knows they aren’t going to the Super Bowl.
 

adambr2

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I noticed you conveniently used only their good plays. The 49ers DEFENSE also allowed 38 points to the Bears AT HOME. Does that sound like a team not affected by losses like Bosa?

GB allowed 21 and 22 points to Chicago in Week 14,16
So comparatively The Packers allowed less points in Regulation to Chicago in BOTH games (weeks 14 and 16) combined (37 pts) than San Fran did tonight alone (38pts).
And yet one team is on the cusp of a 1 seed and is a team no one wants to face, while the other squeaked in again as a 7 seed and is the team everyone wants to face.

If nothing else, we always have an excuse on why we couldn’t get it done, every year.

Post-2023, it was the youngest team in the league, we’re growing, going to improve, etc.

Post-2024, it was still the youngest team in the league, NFC North was just too good this year, etc.

2025, the excuse has already been laid out, just too many injuries.

I see no reason post-2026 that we will get it done, but I’m sure we will have a reason that we didn’t.
 

Packers4ever

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You're misunderstanding his point. You get beat essentially in three ways:

- The other team flat beat you. You were in the right spot, had right technique, hustle a non-issue and just got beat for whatever reason.
- You were out of position and didn't practice sound football. Cannot make a play if you're not in the proper place to make it. This can be on the player or the alignment call each rep.
- Hustle and heart were left back in the lockeroom

Tape illustrates which is the reason on every single play.

NO coach knows if his team has the ability to handle a guy like Henry any given Sunday...I mean dude is one of the best RBs we've seen in the last two/three decades. However, I guarantee you one of those three, maybe multiple happened every time he busted one - some can be coached, studied...sometimes you flat lose a rep.
Does that fall how a team gets prepared, how about half time adjustments or maybe MLF has lost the team and they dont listen to him anymore
 

Packers4ever

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And yet one team is on the cusp of a 1 seed and is a team no one wants to face, while the other squeaked in again as a 7 seed and is the team everyone wants to face.

If nothing else, we always have an excuse on why we couldn’t get it done, every year.

Post-2023, it was the youngest team in the league, we’re growing, going to improve, etc.

Post-2024, it was still the youngest team in the league, NFC North was just too good this year, etc.

2025, the excuse has already been laid out, just too many injuries.

I see no reason post-2026 that we will get it done, but I’m sure we will have a reason that we didn’t.
Agree , always an excuse
 

tynimiller

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Does that fall how a team gets prepared, how about half time adjustments or maybe MLF has lost the team and they dont listen to him anymore
Does that fall how a team gets prepared? Not sure I understand that for sure.

Is it possible MLF has lost the team - of course, it's always possible. That dissention could be one or two players causing the issue or it could be collectively the team as a whole has....but none of that changes precisely what the specific discussion was. If the team is getting beat because they're out of position that can be coached. If because poor technique, that can be coached. If lack of care, hustle or heart - that can be coached or benched.
 
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True, but most UDFA players do wash out. For every Willie Wood or a Sam Shields. There are dozens if not hundreds of guys that hang on practice squads but never really develop.

If Stackhouse was on the Wood-Shields course, he may have already shown some real flashes of dominance. While he will probably still develop and be a valuable depth player, expecting anything more isn't realistic.

The draft had many more rounds when there were only 12 or 14 teams in the NFL. Today's late 6th or 7th round player is taken at a similar spot as guys who went in rounds 15-20 back in the day.
I actually agree with this. However both can be true. While Stack is a UDFA, by being available he still does help, especially in a rotation of guys trying to stop a good Rushing team. Having a 335lb+ guy in the middle still makes a difference and that’s when if he just plays 25 snaps.
 

AKCheese

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It's weird he isn't playing. I thought he had a great camp as an UDFA. There has been a case of the flu making its way through the team. I dunno......
L
And yet one team is on the cusp of a 1 seed and is a team no one wants to face, while the other squeaked in again as a 7 seed and is the team everyone wants to face.

If nothing else, we always have an excuse on why we couldn’t get it done, every year.

Post-2023, it was the youngest team in the league, we’re growing, going to improve, etc.

Post-2024, it was still the youngest team in the league, NFC North was just too good this year, etc.

2025, the excuse has already been laid out, just too many injuries.

I see no reason post-2026 that we will get it done, but I’m sure we will have a reason that we didn’t.
If you’re sure why bother?
 
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There’s always going to be 2 types of people. Those that believe every setback in life (football is merely a reflection of life) is meant for harm, meant for pain and destruction and there is no hope.
Then there’s the same person. Who looks at setbacks in life and just kinda knows they are not meant to destroy them. They use God given power to overcome and they take it for what it is. A singular event in a LONG list of events of trials used to test their resilience.. They use that very setback to grow. Short term growth leads to long term growth. It does not imply we get to skip the process of the pain of growth in 1 day. It might take a year to see the positive results, but we should never stop growing. While we are busy complaining our brain is networks of brain failures. There’s actual scientific studies that show it in brain scans that negative thoughts show negative patterns in brain matter at the microscopic level, but also Vice Versa. This is a known in the scientific world and the mind over matter is a scientific fact.
Oddly enough we all just watched this
happen. Yet many still don’t believe our own eyes. The Chicago Bears as much as we despise them! Especially because we despise them! Like it or not, Chicago is a recent and perfect example of how a team doesn’t get all cry baby and give up and try to get others to do so. That stuff is for people who want to bring others to their level of distrust. No. Chicago took their adversity and went from zero to hero. Well at least for a team with 1 Postseason Loss since MLF took office.

My first goal this year is to be a spoiler. Let’s hand Chicago their 2nd Postseason Loss and leave them defeated and demoralized like we are now!
 
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adambr2

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L

If you’re sure why bother?
Believe it or not — I want this team to succeed. I didn’t enjoy what I saw on Saturday.

I’m just tired of not getting better every single year and us trying to explain away why we can’t compete in a wide open NFC.
 

Packers4ever

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Does that fall how a team gets prepared? Not sure I understand that for sure.

Is it possible MLF has lost the team - of course, it's always possible. That dissention could be one or two players causing the issue or it could be collectively the team as a whole has....but none of that changes precisely what the specific discussion was. If the team is getting beat because they're out of position that can be coached. If because poor technique, that can be coached. If lack of care, hustle or heart - that can be coached or benched.
If at this point in the season there is lack of technique , hustle or heart , or out of position , thats a huge problem that falls on MLF lack of leadership and no wonder they continue to lose
Understand your point but it sounds to me that you are looking for excuses to give MLF a pass for his lack of leadership , but that is ur opinion
 

Packers4ever

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Believe it or not — I want this team to succeed. I didn’t enjoy what I saw on Saturday.

I’m just tired of not getting better every single year and us trying to explain away why we can’t compete in a wide open NFC.
As long as MLF is the coach you will continue to get excuses every time they dont win with out fixing the problem
 
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As long as MLF is the coach you will continue to get excuses every time they dont win with out fixing the problem


IMO. You could really say this about any team except the K.C Chiefs, Tampa, Eagles or Rams and 3 of those 4 do not look to be threatening! Matter of fact we’re in better position than 1/2 of that group.
 

tynimiller

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If at this point in the season there is lack of technique , hustle or heart , or out of position , thats a huge problem that falls on MLF lack of leadership and no wonder they continue to lose
Understand your point but it sounds to me that you are looking for excuses to give MLF a pass for his lack of leadership , but that is ur opinion

Not at all. Also though you've clearly not worked with many 20-30 year old males who think they're special.....those fools can turn on a dime in the care department.
 

tynimiller

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As long as MLF is the coach you will continue to get excuses every time they dont win with out fixing the problem

I don't know many teams or coaches personally that likely handle the following and continue to be a world beater:

- Not just their best TE, but arguably top offensive weapon and one of the best TEs in the league goes down for year.
- The #1 or #2 edge defender in the entire sport goes down for good
- Their #1 iDL out of the year
- Their starting center and longest tenured OL out of the year
- Their all pro RT hasn't been healthy since the same night Parsons went down
- Their best WR out until week 8
- Their #1RB playing on one good knee it seems for 75% of the season now


Injuries IMO are one of the few things when they pile up that simply cannot be overcome by coaching if all crucial spots.

I just wonder if GB doesn't mess up a kick against Cleveland and Doubs recover the onside kick if all the doomsayers would still exist or not...
 

Magooch

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The Ravens game in some ways feels like a microcosm of many of the issues that have plagued us under LaFleur. I've said it before but it feels like we are often the "nail" rather than the "hammer," or that we are a good example of that old Mike Tyson quote, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."
Not to say it is always the case but I think there are a lot of teams who come into games understanding that if they can just out-physical us from the jump, we will never recover. Teams get one good "shot" on us and it throws us off for the whole game.

Now to be fair there are a lot of teams who have suffered under the "Henry-hammer," so that is somewhat a mitigating circumstance, but at the same time it's not like it was some secret as to what the Ravens were going to do. Their game plan was pretty obvious and we were basically powerless to stop it. Is that a matter of just not having the bodies/talent to do so? Probably some factor, but at the same time Henry has faced some "worse" defenses on paper and had less success. Overall it has not been a great year by his standards.

Overall though I'm kind of feeling more and more like this is one of those cases where teams take on the personality of their coach. I think Matt is a good guy, but he doesn't exactly convey a ton of authority or toughness, and I think that contributes to our team having a bit of a "soft" reputation (I don't know if this is something explicitly spoken of, but again I just get the sense that not many teams are scared of us and many feel they can simply out-physical us into a win). Look no further than Dan Campbell's Lions for an example of the opposite (that's not to say I want a coach JUST like Campbell, just talking about this specific personality-trait). He is tough, gritty, intimidating. And in short order the Lions - which had pretty much been a joke franchise for much of the 2000s - turned into a bunch of physical, cocky, chippy SOBs. For better or worse they pretty clearly take after their coach(es).

We have a coach who talks in just about every press conference about taking responsibilities for things, but little changes. Consequently, we seem to have a team that lacks for responsibility/accountability. We have a coach who often looks stumped or off-kilter when trying to manage late game situations and it lends to a team which appears undisciplined or sloppy in crunch time situations. We have a coach who doesn't seem to be consistent in his approaches (when to be aggressive, when to be conservative, when to be respectful vs confrontational, when to chew up clock vs when to play fast, etc) and so we have a team who also doesn't seem to put out a very consistent product.

Now of course that's not to absolve the players of responsibility entirely, or that a new coach would fix all of these things. But as I have said many times before, in coaching, the stuff that happens under your charge...you're either encouraging/teaching/coaching it to happen, or you're at least accepting/allowing it to happen. Yes the players do bear their share of responsibility for these issues but at the same time I get the sense that many of them have simply been taught that it is acceptable, allowed, and/or tolerated, if not encouraged outright.
 

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Believe it or not — I want this team to succeed. I didn’t enjoy what I saw on Saturday.

I’m just tired of not getting better every single year and us trying to explain away why we can’t compete in a wide open NFC.
Doesn't look like there are any juggernaut teams in the NFC or even the AFC this year. If the Packers weren't such a basket case, winning a Super Bowl would be a very realistic possibility. It's not incomprehensible that the Bears could win it all this year for that very reason. I would hate to see it, but it's wide open.
 

Magooch

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And I do also feel like...this one's hard to quantify, but at the moment I would just say the general "feeling" is not very good. We went through a "rough patch" (if you can call it as much) earlier in the season (loss to Browns, tie Cowboys, less-than-great showings vs Bengals/Cardinals, loss to Panthers, loss to Eagles) where there was just a pretty bad vibe all around (insofar as you can assess remotely lol). But then we rattled off a few good wins and things seemed to be turning around and then between injuries, bad luck, and poor play against Broncos/Bears/Ravens it kinda feels like the wheels have fallen off and the general feeling is just back to being really bad. And I am sure a lot of that is due to some of the injuries for sure.

But I guess what I'm getting at is like, I don't think LaFleur has "lost the locker room". I think he is still a pretty well-liked guy, and it's not like he's going to face a mutiny or straight up insubordination or whatever. And I hate to use somewhat tired out sports cliches, but I guess it's like, I just don't get the sense that we have a team who is ready to go to battle for their coach. They'll show up, they'll put in a good effort, they're professionals, all good. But in some cases you have coaches where it feels like their teams are constantly ready to go to WAR for their coach, like they'd die on the field for them. You don't ever really get that sense out of Matt's team(s).

Again that's not really measurable in any sense (nor am I sure it is imperative for a successful team to have this quality or "feeling") but just kind of a weird gut feeling I've had
 

AKCheese

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And I do also feel like...this one's hard to quantify, but at the moment I would just say the general "feeling" is not very good. We went through a "rough patch" (if you can call it as much) earlier in the season (loss to Browns, tie Cowboys, less-than-great showings vs Bengals/Cardinals, loss to Panthers, loss to Eagles) where there was just a pretty bad vibe all around (insofar as you can assess remotely lol). But then we rattled off a few good wins and things seemed to be turning around and then between injuries, bad luck, and poor play against Broncos/Bears/Ravens it kinda feels like the wheels have fallen off and the general feeling is just back to being really bad. And I am sure a lot of that is due to some of the injuries for sure.

But I guess what I'm getting at is like, I don't think LaFleur has "lost the locker room". I think he is still a pretty well-liked guy, and it's not like he's going to face a mutiny or straight up insubordination or whatever. And I hate to use somewhat tired out sports cliches, but I guess it's like, I just don't get the sense that we have a team who is ready to go to battle for their coach. They'll show up, they'll put in a good effort, they're professionals, all good. But in some cases you have coaches where it feels like their teams are constantly ready to go to WAR for their coach, like they'd die on the field for them. You don't ever really get that sense out of Matt's team(s).

Again that's not really measurable in any sense (nor am I sure it is imperative for a successful team to have this quality or "feeling") but just kind of a weird gut feeling I've had
In the famous words of Leonardo DeCaprio in Catch Me If You Can … I concur.
 

chemist

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In the famous words of Leonardo DeCaprio in Catch Me If You Can … I concur.
My only comment. If the NFL hadnt expanded to a 7th team making the playoffs starting in 2020 the packers would not have made the playoffs the last 4 years.
 

AKCheese

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Is it possible Policy already has somebody in mind for both positions? Maybe we could trade MLF to someplace like Miami. (Also a potential landing spot for Wills). Or the Jets are a traditional landing spot for our discards.
 

Magooch

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Is it possible Policy already has somebody in mind for both positions? Maybe we could trade MLF to someplace like Miami. (Also a potential landing spot for Wills). Or the Jets are a traditional landing spot for our discards.
I've kind of been wondering about this lately - not necessarily about who might be lined up as replacements, or about a possible trade (though it is an interesting topic of consideration) but just with regards to what Policy wants to do...

A lot of us will think back to when we drafted Love. For better or worse that was likely Gute's "legacy-defining" move. IMO it is fair to assume that he didn't want to ride out the twilight of Rodgers career and felt it was okay to make a calculated risk in drafting his replacement. And frankly I am not here to discuss whether that worked or not, but just conceptually....much like coaches want "their guy" at QB, much like GMs and executives want to "leave their mark" in this way too (or having their choice of coach, etc)...I think the same is true of presidents, owners, upper management, whatever you want to call it.

Of course as president Policy is going to want to run a successful organization/business and put out a good product on the field, but more than that...if I may speculate, I think he is also going to want to leave his mark on the franchise.
Think back. Bob Harlan hired Ron Wolf and put him in charge. Wolf got Favre and Holmgren and we won Super Bowl XXXI.
Murphy (in part) navigated the Favre-Rodgers transition, won Super Bowl XLV, and additionally hired both Gute and LaFleur and oversaw the move from Rodgers to Love.

Policy then is at the moment is set to inherit a bunch of "leftovers". And I don't mean that disparagingly, but they're not really "his" guys. He didn't pick Gute. He didn't pick LaFleur. You could even say that he didn't pick Love. He's inherited his GM, HC, and QB (among others). Pretty much the only big move he's got so far is signing off on the Parsons trade*.

SO, with all that in mind... Policy basically has the decision to extend Gute and/or LaFleur or set a new path. And I guess I just have to ask: If you were Ed Policy... would you want your "legacy-defining" move to be extending one or both of these guys? If you are looking to leave your mark, would you continue on with them or decide to change course? Beyond simply asking whether or not we would want to commit long-term to one or both of these guys...would he really want to be remembered as "the guy who extended LaFleur and/or Gute"? I don't know...

*I would also add that IMO Policy would not have signed off on this deal unless he felt we were ready to compete for a title and just a piece or two away. If he thought we were going to be a fringe playoff team or a one-and-done I very much doubt he would've sanctioned that trade. As such we have to assume that expectations were set accordingly. IMO this was the next Woodson or Reggie moment and a clear signal that being a wild-card playoff team was not going to be good enough.
 

Magooch

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Oh, and with regards to "somebody in mind," well, I dunno. I can't tell you how many times I've heard something like "If you fire LaFleur, who do you plan on getting who will be as good or better?"

Well, let me respond to a question with a question: If I went back in time 7-8 years and said "If you fire Mike McCarthy, who are you going to get who is better?", how many of you would have answered "The OC from the 27th-ranked Tennessee Titans scoring offense will be better"?
 

tynimiller

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Oh, and with regards to "somebody in mind," well, I dunno. I can't tell you how many times I've heard something like "If you fire LaFleur, who do you plan on getting who will be as good or better?"

Well, let me respond to a question with a question: If I went back in time 7-8 years and said "If you fire Mike McCarthy, who are you going to get who is better?", how many of you would have answered "The OC from the 27th-ranked Tennessee Titans scoring offense will be better"?

Love this thought and comment - I'll admit I'm tapped into a lot of things, but the up and comers of the league is not one of them. Be curious to know from those in the know inside the league or close just who is that short list of names....and is Hafley really on some of them.
 

Packers4ever

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The Ravens game in some ways feels like a microcosm of many of the issues that have plagued us under LaFleur. I've said it before but it feels like we are often the "nail" rather than the "hammer," or that we are a good example of that old Mike Tyson quote, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."
Not to say it is always the case but I think there are a lot of teams who come into games understanding that if they can just out-physical us from the jump, we will never recover. Teams get one good "shot" on us and it throws us off for the whole game.

Now to be fair there are a lot of teams who have suffered under the "Henry-hammer," so that is somewhat a mitigating circumstance, but at the same time it's not like it was some secret as to what the Ravens were going to do. Their game plan was pretty obvious and we were basically powerless to stop it. Is that a matter of just not having the bodies/talent to do so? Probably some factor, but at the same time Henry has faced some "worse" defenses on paper and had less success. Overall it has not been a great year by his standards.

Overall though I'm kind of feeling more and more like this is one of those cases where teams take on the personality of their coach. I think Matt is a good guy, but he doesn't exactly convey a ton of authority or toughness, and I think that contributes to our team having a bit of a "soft" reputation (I don't know if this is something explicitly spoken of, but again I just get the sense that not many teams are scared of us and many feel they can simply out-physical us into a win). Look no further than Dan Campbell's Lions for an example of the opposite (that's not to say I want a coach JUST like Campbell, just talking about this specific personality-trait). He is tough, gritty, intimidating. And in short order the Lions - which had pretty much been a joke franchise for much of the 2000s - turned into a bunch of physical, cocky, chippy SOBs. For better or worse they pretty clearly take after their coach(es).

We have a coach who talks in just about every press conference about taking responsibilities for things, but little changes. Consequently, we seem to have a team that lacks for responsibility/accountability. We have a coach who often looks stumped or off-kilter when trying to manage late game situations and it lends to a team which appears undisciplined or sloppy in crunch time situations. We have a coach who doesn't seem to be consistent in his approaches (when to be aggressive, when to be conservative, when to be respectful vs confrontational, when to chew up clock vs when to play fast, etc) and so we have a team who also doesn't seem to put out a very consistent product.

Now of course that's not to absolve the players of responsibility entirely, or that a new coach would fix all of these things. But as I have said many times before, in coaching, the stuff that happens under your charge...you're either encouraging/teaching/coaching it to happen, or you're at least accepting/allowing it to happen. Yes the players do bear their share of responsibility for these issues but at the same time I get the sense that many of them have simply been taught that it is acceptable, allowed, and/or tolerated, if not encouraged outright.
i have to agree with your comments , taught that is acceptable and tolerated
 

chemist

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I've kind of been wondering about this lately - not necessarily about who might be lined up as replacements, or about a possible trade (though it is an interesting topic of consideration) but just with regards to what Policy wants to do...

A lot of us will think back to when we drafted Love. For better or worse that was likely Gute's "legacy-defining" move. IMO it is fair to assume that he didn't want to ride out the twilight of Rodgers career and felt it was okay to make a calculated risk in drafting his replacement. And frankly I am not here to discuss whether that worked or not, but just conceptually....much like coaches want "their guy" at QB, much like GMs and executives want to "leave their mark" in this way too (or having their choice of coach, etc)...I think the same is true of presidents, owners, upper management, whatever you want to call it.

Of course as president Policy is going to want to run a successful organization/business and put out a good product on the field, but more than that...if I may speculate, I think he is also going to want to leave his mark on the franchise.
Think back. Bob Harlan hired Ron Wolf and put him in charge. Wolf got Favre and Holmgren and we won Super Bowl XXXI.
Murphy (in part) navigated the Favre-Rodgers transition, won Super Bowl XLV, and additionally hired both Gute and LaFleur and oversaw the move from Rodgers to Love.

Policy then is at the moment is set to inherit a bunch of "leftovers". And I don't mean that disparagingly, but they're not really "his" guys. He didn't pick Gute. He didn't pick LaFleur. You could even say that he didn't pick Love. He's inherited his GM, HC, and QB (among others). Pretty much the only big move he's got so far is signing off on the Parsons trade*.

SO, with all that in mind... Policy basically has the decision to extend Gute and/or LaFleur or set a new path. And I guess I just have to ask: If you were Ed Policy... would you want your "legacy-defining" move to be extending one or both of these guys? If you are looking to leave your mark, would you continue on with them or decide to change course? Beyond simply asking whether or not we would want to commit long-term to one or both of these guys...would he really want to be remembered as "the guy who extended LaFleur and/or Gute"? I don't know...

*I would also add that IMO Policy would not have signed off on this deal unless he felt we were ready to compete for a title and just a piece or two away. If he thought we were going to be a fringe playoff team or a one-and-done I very much doubt he would've sanctioned that trade. As such we have to assume that expectations were set accordingly. IMO this was the next Woodson or Reggie moment and a clear signal that being a wild-card playoff team was not going to be good enough.

This team has talent, albeit it was slowly drained away from us by injuries this year but beyond that I always felt something was holding us back from reaching our full potential.
I admit I had a big dislike of MLF calling plays which prohibited him from doing a proper job managing the overall game. I felt that hindered us, sometimes at crucial moments
The packers were lucky to make the playoffs the last 4 yrs as the 7th seed each time. I would call that a fringe semi good team, that has a decent season but never gets very far beyond that and after 4 yrs we are still in the same place, no improvement in sight, no uptrend appearing that may indicate a bright future is coming.
 
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