Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[Mondio]

Heyward signed for $5m a year which was an extraordinary value for a corner that had shown his skill (he should have been defensive rookie of the year AND his final year he played outside corner VERY well). Letting him walk was a terrible idea. Hyde I can understand, the Packers had other guys on the team that they thought would replace him.

you yourself said, was his 1st year a fluke and can he avoid injury. It was a deal, but let's not forget we had 2 rookies that were cutting into his playing time by the end of the year and doing pretty well. I'm not going to go back and dig up the glowing reports about them after year 1, but they both graded and rated pretty well. Too bad it was the best they'd ever do here, but most times they continue to ascend, not plummet. Nobody foresaw it.

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

I’m going to say some of both. imo I see 1 great player in Clark backed by 2 below average players inside DL. Also I just don’t think a DC comes in and instantly takes a team to top 5 level. I think any major impact inside the first Quarter season (4-5 contests) is presumptive when concerning a 1st year DC.

We have to consider Barry wouldn’t be here unless the previous D crew had significant issues. Then factor in his player additions and subtractions. Thus far, you’ve basically got Stokes, but take away Z Smith (no offense to Eric but he’s not Z’ talent level yet) You’ve acquired Campbell in place of Kirksey (so far that is a +). You add Slaton who’s used sparingly and you’ve netted very little there and I’ve got it rated as a very slight talent regression. It’s my opinion we have not had our #2 best Defender (Z) healthy on the field in 2021 snd he’s our best pass rusher. That makes a big difference on any team if you strip their #1 pass rusher. I don’t care if it’s Tampa or Denver or whomever.

What we have in our favor is time. Unseasoned Rookies tend to get more confidence and experience (use Dillon as an example last season) It’s natural law that it takes a few games to get players acquainted with new roles. It also takes a new DC time to make in season adjustments.

This D feeds off the explosiveness of the Offense. As Cobb and MVS get rolling over the next few weeks, watch how the D responds. Detroit was just a scrimmage game to get some slop cleaned up.

We'll see if most of this plays out as time goes on

 

[Sunshinepacker]

you yourself said, was his 1st year a fluke and can he avoid injury. It was a deal, but let's not forget we had 2 rookies that were cutting into his playing time by the end of the year and doing pretty well. I'm not going to go back and dig up the glowing reports about them after year 1, but they both graded and rated pretty well. Too bad it was the best they'd ever do here, but most times they continue to ascend, not plummet. Nobody foresaw it.

He was VERY good his last year in Green Bay; people want to gloss over that year, when he started 11 games and played in all 16 (many of them at outside corner). Nobody was cutting into his playing time that season, unless you somehow think Damarious Randall was shoving aside a MUCH better corner in Heyward.

TT was paid millions of dollars to identify talent and the fact that he let a guy go that had showed elite talent at one of the two most important positions on defense for $5m a season was a major indictment on his ability to continue being a good GM.

 

[Mondio]

He was VERY good his last year in Green Bay; people want to gloss over that year, when he started 11 games and played in all 16 (many of them at outside corner). Nobody was cutting into his playing time that season, unless you somehow think Damarious Randall was shoving aside a MUCH better corner in Heyward.

TT was paid millions of dollars to identify talent and the fact that he let a guy go that had showed elite talent at one of the two most important positions on defense for $5m a season was a major indictment on his ability to continue being a good GM.

Actually, yes, Randall did supplant Hayward as a starter around midseason and was taking playing time from him as the season wore on despite Hayward being the starter to begin the year.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Actually, yes, Randall did supplant Hayward as a starter around midseason and was taking playing time from him as the season wore on despite Hayward being the starter to begin the year.

Weird, cause Randall wasn’t that good and Heyward was outstanding. Either way, i have yet to have anyone explain logically why signing an elite corner back to about the 30th highest yearly salary was a bad idea. Thompson screwed the pooch and it was obvious to anyone that paid attention to his performance when he was healthy.

Basically, Heyward was a player who was vastly better at corner than King ever has been, was injured just a little more, and Thompson decided to let him walk for basically peanuts in the cornerback market.

Thompson was a great GM when he started but once the talent drain started from the FO he was done, he never figured out how to replace those guys.

 

[Mondio]

all of that was explained logically 5 years ago when it happened. I'm not going thru it again. Hindsight shows it was a mistake, when all other factors were fresh and current it didn't seem like one to anybody at the time and that's where i'm leaving it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Hayward was OK in Green Bay, when healthy, but he was by no means the player he became in San Diego. Remembering him as such is incorrect. The Packers used their first 2 picks in 2015 on CB's (Randall and Rollins) specifically to replace Hayward. While it's fine to say "in hind sight we should have kept him", but as Mondio said, at the time it seemed like to most, it was a smart move to let him walk. Also, to assume he would have ever become the player that he did in San Diego, had he stayed in Green Bay, is also making a big assumption.

 

[OldSchool101]

We'll see if most of this plays out as time goes on

Oh I don’t believe that. People will believe what they want to believe to support firmly entrenched prerogatives. We could win a SB and someone would argue that our Offense or Defense still sucks, the other team handed us the Win..
and my comments were an optimistic illusion

Thank You for trying to be nice. Someone in here would ruin it let’s just be candid.. I’ll lose the challenge either way!

 

[milani]

I believe it's a combination of both.



The Packers having had success drafting offensive players doesn't automatically mean the defensive coordinators were the ones to blame for the unit struggling.

How many of the defensive players drafted in the first three rounds since 2012 (Nick Perry, Jerel Worthy, Casey Hayward, Datone Jones, Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Khyri Thornton, Damarius Randall, Quinten Rollins, Kyler Fackrell, Josh Jones, Montravius Adams, Josh Jackson) have excelled playing for other teams???

There aren't a whole lot, meaning the Packers actually struggled to acquire talent on that side of the ball.



FYI the Packers ranked fifth in points scored in 2008 with Rodgers starting for the first time.



The Packers didn't have enough cap space to retain Rivera and Wahle in 2005. Thompson did a great job rebuilding the roster in a short time to make the Packers a contender only two years later.

Did not have enough to sign both of them.? But he did not even try to sign one of them. Nor did he have a plan to draft higher to get at least an " adequate " guard in his place. Instead he supplanted them with two stiffs who would hardly even make the 53 somewhere else. He had no margin for error and because of the poor blocking we lost our backfield to injury and were relegated to an amateur player Samkon Gado. Even Thompson admitted years later he made a mistake in handling that situation. Rebuilding is one thing. But when you have a HOF QB in Favre, who pleaded with Thompson about that, you want to protect him. No excuse to go 4-12. You reload in GB you never rebuild.

 

[swhitset]

Hayward was OK in Green Bay, when healthy, but he was by no means the player he became in San Diego. Remembering him as such is incorrect. The Packers used their first 2 picks in 2015 on CB's (Randall and Rollins) specifically to replace Hayward. While it's fine to say "in hind sight we should have kept him", but as Mondio said, at the time it seemed like to most, it was a smart move to let him walk. Also, to assume he would have ever become the player that he did in San Diego, had he stayed in Green Bay, is also making a big assumption.

Exactly… using hindsight is one thing, but let’s at least do it accurately.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I bet if they asked him too, Rodgers could coach the defense much better.

Come on, Poker, you're better than that.

Actually, yes, Randall did supplant Hayward as a starter around midseason and was taking playing time from him as the season wore on despite Hayward being the starter to begin the year.

While I agree it seemed to be the correct decision to let Hayward walk away in free agency at that point it's not true that Randall was taking playing time from him during the 2015 season. Hayward ended up playing 87% of the defensive snaps that year.

Did not have enough to sign both of them.? But he did not even try to sign one of them. Nor did he have a plan to draft higher to get at least an " adequate " guard in his place. Instead he supplanted them with two stiffs who would hardly even make the 53 somewhere else. He had no margin for error and because of the poor blocking we lost our backfield to injury and were relegated to an amateur player Samkon Gado. Even Thompson admitted years later he made a mistake in handling that situation. Rebuilding is one thing. But when you have a HOF QB in Favre, who pleaded with Thompson about that, you want to protect him. No excuse to go 4-12. You reload in GB you never rebuild.

I agree Thompson could have done a better job of replacing Rivera and Wahle for the 2005 season but it's a fact the Packers didn't have enough cap space to re-sign either one of them at that point.

 

[milani]

Come on, Poker, you're better than that.



While I agree it seemed to be the correct decision to let Hayward walk away in free agency at that point it's not true that Randall was taking playing time from him during the 2015 season. Hayward ended up playing 87% of the defensive snaps that year.



I agree Thompson could have done a better job of replacing Rivera and Wahle for the 2005 season but it's a fact the Packers didn't have enough cap space to re-sign either one of them at that point.

And by not addressing that or even trying to get close he left no margin for error. And when Flanagan's career came suddenly to an end two games into the season he put the Packers in dire straits.

 

[Mondio]

Come on, Poker, you're better than that.



While I agree it seemed to be the correct decision to let Hayward walk away in free agency at that point it's not true that Randall was taking playing time from him during the 2015 season. Hayward ended up playing 87% of the defensive snaps that year.



I agree Thompson could have done a better job of replacing Rivera and Wahle for the 2005 season but it's a fact the Packers didn't have enough cap space to re-sign either one of them at that point.

Randall became the starter outside taking Haywards place. I know Hayward played a lot and I know how the percentages played out. He was the starter to start the season and played pretty much 100% of the snaps for at least half the season, Randall was not. Randall took over the outside role and Hayward's playing time was reduced as he was the nickel back.

You can go back and read every article written at the time. They'd almost all say, Randall was taking time and they couldn't keep him off the field so they gave him the full time starter role and moved Hayward to the nickel role. Which we played a lot but when we didn't, Randall no longer came of the field, Hayward did.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Amazing to me that fans watched hayward and thought, “Nah, this guy isn’t worth $5 mil a year.”

Who cares that he turned into a pro-bowl corner, at $5m a year he would have been a major value as the third string corner! Stop acting like he signed some expensive deal, he was the 43rd highest paid corner at $5.1m a year!!! Letting him walk for that stupidly low a price was a major mistake and there were plenty who pointed that out at the time.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/did-the-packers-make-a-mistake-letting-casey-hayward-go

Says the Packers should want him but probably can't afford him (turns out they could have)

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-re-signing-casey-hayward-priority-no-1-for-packers-in-free-agency

44th ranked free agent ended up being the 43rd highest paid CB

29th ranked free agent

28th ranked free agent

I'll stop there but let's not pretend nobody knew Hayward was a terrific corner when healthy.

 

[easyk83]

Aaron Rodgers.

Heyward was VERY good with the packers, he was just hurt for two seasons.

Aaron Rodgers would be an explanation if Packers OLs were perceived as being underrated. They were not. His tendency to extend the play made their jobs harder not easier.

As for Davante Adams, he's looked like an elite talent even when Rodgers hasnt been the one throwing him the ball. His immediate separation is probably tops in the league with his first and second step moves.

Aaron Jones, why dont all of our RBs look and play like him? There arent any third party grading sites or professionals who do not rate him as an outstanding running back.

 

[easyk83]

I bet if they asked him too, Rodgers could coach the defense much better.

What if the Bus breaks down or a tornadiquake happens and only Aaron Rodgers arrives to play against the 49ers?

 

[Mondio]

Amazing to me that fans watched hayward and thought, “Nah, this guy isn’t worth $5 mil a year.”

Who cares that he turned into a pro-bowl corner, at $5m a year he would have been a major value as the third string corner! Stop acting like he signed some expensive deal, he was the 43rd highest paid corner at $5.1m a year!!! Letting him walk for that stupidly low a price was a major mistake and there were plenty who pointed that out at the time.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/did-the-packers-make-a-mistake-letting-casey-hayward-go

Says the Packers should want him but probably can't afford him (turns out they could have)

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-re-signing-casey-hayward-priority-no-1-for-packers-in-free-agency

44th ranked free agent ended up being the 43rd highest paid CB

29th ranked free agent

28th ranked free agent

I'll stop there but let's not pretend nobody knew Hayward was a terrific corner when healthy.

What happened at the time wasn't that Hayward wasn't worth it, it was that with Shields under contract and an all pro, Randall supplanting him as the starter opposite Shields halfway thru his rookie season, Rollins having a really good rookie year and Hyde also being very capable in the nickel and dime role it was thought they didn't need to spend that money on another nickel back.

They were wrong. How many links did you come across that pointed to how poised the packers were to let him go with all the depth behind him? I bet they doubled what you decided to post

 

[mradtke66]

Did not have enough to sign both of them.?

Not really. Wahle (sp?) got cuz because as a LG, he was getting paid LT money. Thompson cut the guy, but the mistake was Sherman's. He way, way overpaid the guy.

Marco was FA and the Cowboys backed up the brinks truck for him. However, he was old and I think he only played one more (if that) full season. Losing him also hurt, but letting him go was correct.

 

[Mondio]

Not really. Wahle (sp?) got cuz because as a LG, he was getting paid LT money. Thompson cut the guy, but the mistake was Sherman's. He way, way overpaid the guy.

Marco was FA and the Cowboys backed up the brinks truck for him. However, he was old and I think he only played one more (if that) full season. Losing him also hurt, but letting him go was correct.

didn't he hurt his back right away and offer to pay back the signing bonus since he didn't feel like he could earn it?

 

[Dantés]

One thing I noticed on Monday night was that the rush seemed to be a little bit more effective once they stopped using so many games and stunts. Typically, you use those techniques if you're not confident in the abilities of your players to win one-on-one and so you're trying to mix it up on the OL. But Detroit had no trouble passing stuff off. When the rush just came at them, the pocket contracted a lot quicker.

I was listening to Mitchell Schwartz on with Robert Mays this morning and he said something interesting. He said his preference as an OL was to block guys running games and stunts. Basically, teams run virtually the same concepts so frequently that competent OL know how to pass them off and neutralize them. He said he'd way rather just flatten an end and pick up a looping 3T on a T-E stunt (for example) than face a one-on-one with a DE who has a three way go.

If that was the case on Monday night, hopefully Barry will notice and change the approach.

 

[Dantés]

My general thought on Barry so far is that he may suck or he may be great and we won't know for a little while.

A lot of the issues on defense are communication based. If you watched LA's defense last year, they stood out in their ability to communicate and adjust on the fly. They always knew their assignments, even when those assignments changed last minute. The Packers aren't there yet.

So either Barry is a good teacher and they're going to come along.

Or he's a bad teacher and they're going to continue to be a mess.

Time will tell.

 

[mradtke66]

didn't he hurt his back right away and offer to pay back the signing bonus since he didn't feel like he could earn it?

Maybe? I do remember his career kind of over in a hurry. The back could have been what I remeber.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

My general thought on Barry so far is that he may suck or he may be great and we won't know for a little while.

A lot of the issues on defense are communication based. If you watched LA's defense last year, they stood out in their ability to communicate and adjust on the fly. They always knew their assignments, even when those assignments changed last minute. The Packers aren't there yet.

So either Barry is a good teacher and they're going to come along.

Or he's a bad teacher and they're going to continue to be a mess.

Time will tell.

I was against the hire because Barry's entire history as a DC is that he sucks. Now, maybe Green Bay has the miracle juice that turns it around for him but we'll have to wait and see on that.

 

[Dantés]

I was against the hire because Barry's entire history as a DC is that he sucks. Now, maybe Green Bay has the miracle juice that turns it around for him but we'll have to wait and see on that.

His background does not necessarily prove that he sucks, but it doesn't prove that he's good either.

It's painfully obvious that he was hired because there was confidence that he could teach the style of defense that succeeded so well in LA and Denver last year. It's not obvious at all, yet, whether that confidence was justified.

In a way, he's similar to the LaFleur hire (though his track record is longer). LaFleur didn't have a stellar record as an OC, but he was hired to teach a style of offense that's really successful in the league right now. He proved to be the genuine article. In Barry's case, we don't know.

 

[Mondio]

Maybe? I do remember his career kind of over in a hurry. The back could have been what I remeber.

I had to go look for a refresher.

After getting hurt in 2005, Rivera offered to tear up his
Cowboys contract and return his $9 million signing bonus.

Slowed by back woes, Cowboys cut OG Rivera

Three-time Pro Bowl guard Marco Rivera was released Thursday after two seasons and two back operations while with the Dallas Cowboys.

www.espn.com