Putting our youth in perspective...

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tynimiller

tynimiller

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Oh for the record I have no beef with @Scotland Yard being frustrated and trust me my replies or to the general thoughts many are sharing, I just happen to think it is delusional for folks to have expected much better than we've gotten so far this year.....shoot truthfully I didn't expect us to have looked as good as we have at times LOL
 

El Guapo

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LaFleur got to work with a great QB in Rodgers. That was the honeymoon period, and he succeeded better than anyone in history in terms of W/L record. Had he been allowed to hire a decent ST coach (2021 NFCCG), he might have been able to claim a Lombardi trophy too!

He's now had all of five games to go back to scratch and work with not only a young team but a first year starter. I'm not lumping him in with Forrest Gregg just yet. I would like to see improvement in Year 1, but I really think that we will know once we see how Year 2 plays out.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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LaFleur got to work with a great QB in Rodgers. That was the honeymoon period, and he succeeded better than anyone in history in terms of W/L record. Had he been allowed to hire a decent ST coach (2021 NFCCG), he might have been able to claim a Lombardi trophy too!

He's now had all of five games to go back to scratch and work with not only a young team but a first year starter. I'm not lumping him in with Forrest Gregg just yet. I would like to see improvement in Year 1, but I really think that we will know once we see how Year 2 plays out.

Folks need to also acknowledge how much Rodgers grew production wise thanks to MLF. Rodgers was both to the eye and production dipping somewhat - talk about a surge back into excellency (two MVPs to boot) and like you said should have been playing for a Lombardi at least.
 

El Guapo

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I agree, but also secretly wonder about how much of the improvement was just the breath of fresh air in a new coach. McCarthy stepped in and resurrected Favre's career. LaFleur did the same. Both are undoubtably good coaches.

One could put a ven diagram together showing the overlap of just a new voice in the QB's head, the new scheme, and the coach themself that all influenced those increases in QB production. The amount that each contributed is the great debate.
 

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That part is absolutely true.

As you said, Rodgers was in the twilight of his career. 1 more year..
3 more years whatever. I don’t think either of us would argue differently. So we’d be looking at getting his replacement right now. Who do you take in this next 2024 draft for your franchise QB???
List him here ______________
Assuming we’re in that ##20-#26 overall area. Pick a #2024 draft QB
I’ll be sure to track his ups n downs starting the second he steps off the plane and then I’ll even comment on your alternative QB choice on a daily basis for you.
I am not silly enough to start doing mock drafts in October. I will definitely play your game though the week of the 2024 draft
 

Schultz

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LoL MLF has barely been here that long…but sure I’ll play the game. Check out Jones’ production during MLF time, easily one. Also check out Adams’ production pre and post MLF arriving.

It’s a massive turning to the guard in GB, if folks want to expect miracles go for it, each their own.

Pointing out the inexperience of a roster is not an excuse lol
I don't think you can credit Adams production to MLF. I remember hearing somewhere that he was the only one the QB would throw to. Pretty sure that was not part of the MLF offense.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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I don't think you can credit Adams production to MLF. I remember hearing somewhere that he was the only one the QB would throw to. Pretty sure that was not part of the MLF offense.

Want me to pull up interviews where he defended and even stated how often it made sense for him to be read1?

Look I'm not saying MLF is some magical coach on a level few have achieved, I'm just saying everyone seems to either want to dismiss him as crap and give zero credit to all our success in the good years he's had....or folks want to pretend you think he is the second coming of Lombardi.
 

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Oh for the record I have no beef with @Scotland Yard being frustrated and trust me my replies or to the general thoughts many are sharing, I just happen to think it is delusional for folks to have expected much better than we've gotten so far this year.....shoot truthfully I didn't expect us to have looked as good as we have at times LOL
Is it okay for people who didn't expect much this year to be frustrated? Asking for a friend.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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Is it okay for people who didn't expect much this year to be frustrated? Asking for a friend.

LOL like I've tried to express frustration I think is a natural and valid thing to feel, what I struggle with is folks that just unrealistic or hold just incredibly misguided frustrations that aren't supportive - for the record don't believe that second extreme is anywhere close to what Scotland said or you see on this forum at all really....most of the time that level is only seen on other forums, social media outlets or X (twitter)
 
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Want me to pull up interviews where he defended and even stated how often it made sense for him to be read1?

Look I'm not saying MLF is some magical coach on a level few have achieved, I'm just saying everyone seems to either want to dismiss him as crap and give zero credit to all our success in the good years he's had....or folks want to pretend you think he is the second coming of Lombardi.
I think you hit one something there. The hot button is that Matt’s Offense has been successful when he has
1. A QB who can execute it
2. The supporting cast to execute it.
3. Cohesion between 1,2
4. A relatively healthy participation by the players who are Bonafide starters.

-Right now we’ve got at least 3-4 Offensive players that are regularly seeing snaps and that just got plugged into the playbook with “live action”. I’m not talking about film study or practice with the B squad. I’m talking live games against A team Defenders.
-We have another 3-4 more players that were plugged into the system as recent as last season.
This includes Reed, Musgrave, Kraft, Wicks, Doubs, Watson, Touree, Walker and Tom
That’s 9 players who see the Offense regularly out of about 14 with
1 accrued season or less “LIVE” experience.

I feel like we’ve got most of the elements for 1,2 but we’re still not quite at 3 or 4. We’re disjointed and we’ve had substantial missed overlapping time from Bak, Elgton, Watson and Jones as a collective unit.
This Denver contest might be the closest we’ve been to a “healthy” Offense IF we have Watson, Jenkins and Jones simultaneously. The closest example would be Week 1 where we had Bakhtiari, Jenkins and Jones (missing Watson) all healthy.

I’m going to go out on a limb here.
I don’t think we look quite as lost at 90% health.
GB 26 Denver 23
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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I think you hit one something there. The hot button is that Matt’s Offense has been successful when he has
1. A QB who can execute it
2. The Personnel to execute it.
3. Cohesion between 1,2
4. A relatively healthy participation by those same players

-Right now we’ve got at least 3-4 Offensive players that are regularly seeing snaps and that just got plugged into the playbook with “live action”. I’m not talking about film study or practice with the B squad. I’m talking live games against A team Defenders.
-We have another 3-4 more players that were plugged into the system as recent as last season.
This includes Reed, Musgrave, Kraft, Wicks, Doubs, Watson, Touree, Walker and Tom
That’s 9 players who see the Offense regularly out of about 14 with
1 accrued season or less “LIVE” experience. It’s not enough seasoning for an award winning Chile

To be fair, I've not seen any coach with sustained success without those items for their system.

Perhaps the best example against that was actually the Rex Grossman led bears that one year...2006
 
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To be fair, I've not seen any coach with sustained success without those items for their system.

Perhaps the best example against that was actually the Rex Grossman led bears that one year...2006
I suppose that’s true. Then let’s pretend like we are one of those teams :laugh:

In seriousness though. The 2006 Bears starting OL played 78/80 possible games started. They also had 48 seasons of total accrued experience.
 
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milani

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I suppose that’s true. Then let’s pretend like we are one of those teams :laugh:

In seriousness though. The 2006 Bears starting OL played 78/80 possible games started. They also had 48 seasons of total accrued experience.
And they had a pretty good run game so Grossman only needed to handoff.
 

Scotland Yard

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LoL MLF has barely been here that long…but sure I’ll play the game. Check out Jones’ production during MLF time, easily one. Also check out Adams’ production pre and post MLF arriving.

It’s a massive turning to the guard in GB, if folks want to expect miracles go for it, each their own.

Pointing out the inexperience of a roster is not an excuse lol
Jones actually had 5.5 YPC in 2017 and 2018 under McCarthy. He's gotten that high once under LaFleur. I can't give LaFleur credit for Jones, he would have succeeded on any team.

I will certainly concede that LaFleur got a lot out of Rodgers/Adams and a veteran laden team in the regular season. But, his teams also collapsed in ugly ways in the playoffs, that is also a fact.
So this is a bit misleading as in MLF's time here in GB let's look at the young players drafted and brought in reflectively "should" have been something arguably:

Day 1 - this is where you elite types should come from or minimum perennial starters.
2019 - Gary and Savage
2020 - Love
2021 - Stokes
2022 - Walker and Wyatt
2023 - LVN

So Love is the only offensive addition in those years - and just like ANY draft pick that a logical person is grading or reviewing you want to see two years minimum from them - verdict still out on Love.

2nd Rounders - lower return expected but still hope to get starting level play:
2019 - Elgton Jenkins
2020 - AJ Dillon
2021 - Josh Myers
2022 - Christian Watson
2023 - Luke Musgrave & Jayden Reed

Honestly, Jenkins is an AP...
Dillon until this year has at MINIMUM provided mid-level NFL starting level production and at times has looked like an RB1...
Myers has provided sufficient starting center play, but most likely is not seeing a second contract or I should say IMO won't - to me he's given you more what you expect out of a 3rd rounder or so.
Watson, when healthy produces VERY VERY well relative to the league norms.
Musgrave is going through growing pains for sure and is too young to know...Reed has at times looked like a second year slot receiver for us.

So while I get people get all sad about us always going defense a lot on Day 1...I don't see this abysmal return some do either.
Convenient for you to just ignore rounds 3-through-7.

Just push aside:

2019 3rd round TE Sternberger
2020 3rd round TE Deguara
2020 6th round OL Runyan, Hanson, Stepaniak
2021 3rd round WR Rodgers
2021 4th round OL Newman
2021 6th round OL Van Lanen
2022 3th round OL Rhyan

Those are four misses in the 3rd round plus a 4th rounder on offense. This is why the offense is putrid now, too many washouts drafted on offense. If LaFleur could have found a way to coax something great out of just one or two of those six OL we're probably not having this conversation right here. Of course, maybe it's on Gute.

Anyway, Dillon is not getting better. Neither is Myers. Even UDFA OT Nijman is regressing. Is LaFleur coaching them up?
Why do I sense an emotional reaction to growing pains here? :laugh:
As for the spin about my emotional reaction or frustration, that is just your own egotism seeping out. You're saying my opinion of the current state of the Packers is emotional and therefore irrational. The inference being that you on the other hand are purely analytical and unemotional and therefore holding the more valid opinion. Hey, if you need to bring others down to build yourself up, who am I to argue. But, true emotionalism is hoping they way dedicated fans do no matter what. Perhaps such as yourself. Which is fine.

I simply say that youth alone is not good grounds for hope/optimism. And there are factors stated above pertaining to why they are so young, namely Gute/LaFleur failing to rear up previous players, that cause me to think there is a problem with drafting and growing NFL players in GB. Perhaps I am wrong, time will tell.

Finally, I expected this team to finish about 4-13 this season, so, frustration is not my mood, they are doing better than I expected.

I have no axe to grind and enjoyed the back and forth with everyone. Peace.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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Jones actually had 5.5 YPC in 2017 and 2018 under McCarthy. He's gotten that high once under LaFleur. I can't give LaFleur credit for Jones, he would have succeeded on any team.

I will certainly concede that LaFleur got a lot out of Rodgers/Adams and a veteran laden team in the regular season. But, his teams also collapsed in ugly ways in the playoffs, that is also a fact.

Convenient for you to just ignore rounds 3-through-7.

Just push aside:

2019 3rd round TE Sternberger
2020 3rd round TE Deguara
2020 6th round OL Runyan, Hanson, Stepaniak
2021 3rd round WR Rodgers
2021 4th round OL Newman
2021 6th round OL Van Lanen
2022 3th round OL Rhyan

Those are four misses in the 3rd round plus a 4th rounder on offense. This is why the offense is putrid now, too many washouts drafted on offense. If LaFleur could have found a way to coax something great out of just one or two of those six OL we're probably not having this conversation right here. Of course, maybe it's on Gute.

Anyway, Dillon is not getting better. Neither is Myers. Even UDFA OT Nijman is regressing. Is LaFleur coaching them up?

As for the spin about my emotional reaction or frustration, that is just your own egotism seeping out. You're saying my opinion of the current state of the Packers is emotional and therefore irrational. The inference being that you on the other hand are purely analytical and unemotional and therefore holding the more valid opinion. Hey, if you need to bring others down to build yourself up, who am I to argue. But, true emotionalism is hoping they way dedicated fans do no matter what. Perhaps such as yourself. Which is fine.

I simply say that youth alone is not good grounds for hope/optimism. And there are factors stated above pertaining to why they are so young, namely Gute/LaFleur failing to rear up previous players, that cause me to think there is a problem with drafting and growing NFL players in GB. Perhaps I am wrong, time will tell.

Finally, I expected this team to finish about 4-13 this season, so, frustration is not my mood, they are doing better than I expected.

I have no axe to grind and enjoyed the back and forth with everyone. Peace.

Lol
I didn’t ignore any rounds but your highest expectations lie in round one and many would argue beyond that is a crap shoot, I believe about the top 50 prospects is a decent average of how many prospects most of the best scouts feel fairly sure in predicting success but no guarantee.

The third round has sucked big time but if you’re going to include day 3 picks honestly the fact Gute has found some guys that have produced and or are still in the league even starting on other teams or ours is very impressive.

I think it is personally quite naive to expect much out of any day 3s when discussing “all pro” types like you eluded to
 

rmontro

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I just happen to think it is delusional for folks to have expected much better than we've gotten so far this year.....shoot truthfully I didn't expect us to have looked as good as we have at times LOL
I still think the team would be looking better if they were healthy, with Aaron Jones running on all cylinders. I bet we'd be at least 3-2 right now. But I guess it's not realistic to expect a football team to remain healthy, especially when it comes to Bakhtiari.
 
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I still think the team would be looking better if they were healthy, with Aaron Jones running on all cylinders. I bet we'd be at least 3-2 right now. But I guess it's not realistic to expect a football team to remain healthy, especially when it comes to Bakhtiari.

Oh I agree, if Watson and Jones and Bakh and Jenkins all were 100% all season we are 3-2 minimum
 
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Oh I agree, if Watson and Jones and Bakh and Jenkins all were 100% all season we are 3-2 minimum
I know we don’t want to use an injury excuse because it’s true that all teams suffer injuries. Although not always to the degree in 1 position group. We’ve all seen what missed time at OL does to a team. Hundreds of examples, but Matt Ryan and the 2013 Falcons are an example of what happens to even a SB favorite once injuries happen. That OL got decimated and went from #5,#7 to #20 real fast.
The Cowboys are also a recent example in injuries. In 2021 they had both Starting Tackles miss at least 6+ games. Other than a strong C that OL was a revolving door. That alone created much instability and it showed up immediately and often.
Injuries happen. However when they happen to 1 position group and to higher graded players it has a profound impact. Losing David permanently and Elgton for multiple games is detrimental to our success. Matt can talk about next man up all he wants and that’s fine. However if I pull the best 2 players on ANY teams Offense Line expect problems, especially early into those changes.
 
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I like being “young” because there’s nowhere to go but up as we gain experience. If we are going to allow a scrimmage season to grow then now is that time. I too only expected in that ~7 Win area. We can still Win 5 games regardless of @ Denver.

This is the time to get our mistakes out. Lower the expectations of our opponents and then embarrass a few of them who think we’re an easy target while along the way
 

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I like being “young” because there’s nowhere to go but up as we gain experience.
Plus being young is usually inexpensive, and it leaves room to add a key piece when the opportunity arises. This is why teams can now turn things around more quickly than they could back in the dark days of the '70s and '80s.
 

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