Putting our youth in perspective...

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
Here's the thing....folks are just chalking Love in the fire bin and/or MLF and/or Barry and essentially Gute along with anyone that has an office space at Lambeau it seems. But do folks truly even realize just HOW YOUNG this team is. This isn't just a question of sheer age but of also even NFL game snaps.

BUT right now through 6 weeks in the NFL the following teams have the most NON-QB snaps taken by rookies:

Rams - 1,453 snaps in 6 games (242.17 snaps a game average)
Texans - 1,415 snaps in 6 games (235.83 snaps a game average)
Cardinals - 1,408 snaps in 6 games (234.66 snaps a game average)
Bears - 1340 snaps in 6 games (223.33 snaps a game average)
Packers - 1163 snaps in 5 games (232.6 snaps a game average)
Seahawks - 1135 snaps in 5 games (227 snaps a game average)
Patriots - 1031 snaps in 6 games (171.83 snaps a game average)

Now Steve Palazzolo didn't specify if this includes STs so just note that*

Now the records of these teams:

Rams 3-3
Texans 3-3
Cardinals 1-5
Bears 1-5
Packers 2-3
Seahawks 3-2 - the only team on the list with a winning record - worth noting their opponents so far: Rams / Lions / Panthers / Giants / Bengals
Patriots 1-5


I mean the crazy thing is if you look at our offensive losses player wise we lost our QB who of course was nearly our highest %snap guy on offense (only Myers was more) last year but also lost:

Our leading WR and overall 5th most snap guy in Lazard
Aaron Jones our leader in the RB room and 7th overall has essentially been gone all year
Yosh Nijman who was our third most snap OL last year isn't even good enough to get on the field over Walker this year and is forced to play only due to injury and issues.
Our 9th overall and top TE snap wise Tonyan gone
Lewis gone...
Bakh gone of course...

We essentially have a Redshirt college team on the offensive side of the ball with a few others sprinkled in (a few of which cannot stay on the field in Jones and Watson...who Watson is still YOUNG).

Just crazy...
 

El Guapo

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
6,145
Reaction score
1,606
Location
Land 'O Lakes
The plain fact is that most Packers fans are spoiled. We've all gotten used to non-stop winning over the years. Now that we are truly rebuilding, Packers fans don't know how to handle it. They want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I agree that Joe Barry needs to go, and have felt that way for three seasons now. However, the rest of the team and coaching staff is still standing on new-born fawn legs. LaFleur really has to be a play-caller for the first time now that Rodgers isn't here. He doesn't even have the same OC staff that he had when we were good, and now he's got nothing but young guys to work with.

We all knew that it would take time, but some people can't see the long game through their 3hr game glasses. Patience is a dish best served cold....errr....something like that :)
 

Schultz

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
2,710
Reaction score
1,560
To me this falls in the be careful what you wish for category. Now let me be clear, I fully realize that this was going to happen at some point, I am not naive. I just didn't feel it had to happen just yet. Other than the injuries, I have no sympathy for the other excuses including the youth of the team as they were all self inflicted IMO.
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
To me this falls in the be careful what you wish for category. Now let me be clear, I fully realize that this was going to happen at some point, I am not naive. I just didn't feel it had to happen just yet. Other than the injuries, I have no sympathy for the other excuses including the youth of the team as they were all self inflicted IMO.

I think many of us envisioned this all playing out roughly a year or two forward...but essentially when Love was picked an escalation started and the fallout as well.
 

milani

Cheesehead
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Messages
4,189
Reaction score
1,506
Here's the thing....folks are just chalking Love in the fire bin and/or MLF and/or Barry and essentially Gute along with anyone that has an office space at Lambeau it seems. But do folks truly even realize just HOW YOUNG this team is. This isn't just a question of sheer age but of also even NFL game snaps.

BUT right now through 6 weeks in the NFL the following teams have the most NON-QB snaps taken by rookies:

Rams - 1,453 snaps in 6 games (242.17 snaps a game average)
Texans - 1,415 snaps in 6 games (235.83 snaps a game average)
Cardinals - 1,408 snaps in 6 games (234.66 snaps a game average)
Bears - 1340 snaps in 6 games (223.33 snaps a game average)
Packers - 1163 snaps in 5 games (232.6 snaps a game average)
Seahawks - 1135 snaps in 5 games (227 snaps a game average)
Patriots - 1031 snaps in 6 games (171.83 snaps a game average)

Now Steve Palazzolo didn't specify if this includes STs so just note that*

Now the records of these teams:

Rams 3-3
Texans 3-3
Cardinals 1-5
Bears 1-5
Packers 2-3
Seahawks 3-2 - the only team on the list with a winning record - worth noting their opponents so far: Rams / Lions / Panthers / Giants / Bengals
Patriots 1-5


I mean the crazy thing is if you look at our offensive losses player wise we lost our QB who of course was nearly our highest %snap guy on offense (only Myers was more) last year but also lost:

Our leading WR and overall 5th most snap guy in Lazard
Aaron Jones our leader in the RB room and 7th overall has essentially been gone all year
Yosh Nijman who was our third most snap OL last year isn't even good enough to get on the field over Walker this year and is forced to play only due to injury and issues.
Our 9th overall and top TE snap wise Tonyan gone
Lewis gone...
Bakh gone of course...

We essentially have a Redshirt college team on the offensive side of the ball with a few others sprinkled in (a few of which cannot stay on the field in Jones and Watson...who Watson is still YOUNG).

Just crazy...
Good data. In general it would be good just to look at the average age of teams. We are very young. Some teams that have more offensive or defensive snaps can be the reason they have more. Since ours is much more on the O side our total number of plays on offense could be less. Whereas our defense is more experienced. Better coaching on the offensive side of the ball could change these numbers.
 

ARPackFan

Knock it off with them negative waves
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
725
Reaction score
262
Location
Arkansas
When your receiving group/TEs are rookies and 2nd year players I imagine it would skew the age towards youth. This is on Gutekunst and his consistently ignoring these positions over his tenure as GM. Should be drafting a WR almost every year and not taking three in one year. Consistent drafting of WR (TEs every second or third year) keeps the pipeline full and should help prevent what the Packers currently have. It's positively brilliant to give a 1st year starting QB an inexperienced group of receivers.
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
When your receiving group/TEs are rookies and 2nd year players I imagine it would skew the age towards youth. This is on Gutekunst and his consistently ignoring these positions over his tenure as GM. Should be drafting a WR almost every year and not taking three in one year. Consistent drafting of WR (TEs every second or third year) keeps the pipeline full and should help prevent what the Packers currently have. It's positively brilliant to give a 1st year starting QB an inexperienced group of receivers.
He does do that?

I've shared before...Gute has only not drafted a WR twice...it just hasn't been who or to the liking of fans or worse not panned.

2018 - 3 drafted (R4/R5/R6)
2019 / 2020 - 0
2021 - 1 (R3)
2022 - 3 (R2/R4/R7)
2023 - 3 (R2/R5/R7)
 

Schultz

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
2,710
Reaction score
1,560
He does do that?

I've shared before...Gute has only not drafted a WR twice...it just hasn't been who or to the liking of fans or worse not panned.

2018 - 3 drafted (R4/R5/R6)
2019 / 2020 - 0
2021 - 1 (R3)
2022 - 3 (R2/R4/R7)
2023 - 3 (R2/R5/R7)
That's why a lot of us complained about not taking one in 2020. It didn't have to be instead of Love. Could have been day 2. Then maybe he doesn't take that 3rd rounder in 2021 and takes someone who is actually still on the team at a different position. 2018, a starter, 53 man bubble & a cut. Should not expect much more from late 4,5,6. 2019 & 2020 passes on the position. 2021 swings and misses. Which led to 2022 & 2023. Not good.
 

Pugger

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
2,616
Reaction score
756
Location
N. Fort Myers, FL
To me this falls in the be careful what you wish for category. Now let me be clear, I fully realize that this was going to happen at some point, I am not naive. I just didn't feel it had to happen just yet. Other than the injuries, I have no sympathy for the other excuses including the youth of the team as they were all self inflicted IMO.
Your post here suggest you were among many who thought we wouldn't be struggling this year like we are. What made you believe this team as it is today was a playoff caliber (WC) team?
 

Pugger

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
2,616
Reaction score
756
Location
N. Fort Myers, FL
He does do that?

I've shared before...Gute has only not drafted a WR twice...it just hasn't been who or to the liking of fans or worse not panned.

2018 - 3 drafted (R4/R5/R6)
2019 / 2020 - 0
2021 - 1 (R3)
2022 - 3 (R2/R4/R7)
2023 - 3 (R2/R5/R7)
Yes he has drafted WRs but not until 2022 did he take one in the second round and has never taken one in the first. I'd have to go back and look at those drafts to see if there were any WRs worth taking higher in these years.
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
That's why a lot of us complained about not taking one in 2020. It didn't have to be instead of Love. Could have been day 2. Then maybe he doesn't take that 3rd rounder in 2021 and takes someone who is actually still on the team at a different position. 2018, a starter, 53 man bubble & a cut. Should not expect much more from late 4,5,6. 2019 & 2020 passes on the position. 2021 swings and misses. Which led to 2022 & 2023. Not good.

Everyone that was in the shoutbox remembers I was screaming with joy when the trade was announced and was all set to buy my Michael Pittman jersey!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
Yes he has drafted WRs but not until 2022 did he take one in the second round and has never taken one in the first. I'd have to go back and look at those drafts to see if there were any WRs worth taking higher in these years.

Exactly, like I said the poster said he didn't take WRs consistently...I believe history refutes that to a point, he consistently went to the WR well quite a lot, just not the guy or the round folks demanded.
 

gopkrs

Cheesehead
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
5,374
Reaction score
1,276
Yes he has drafted WRs but not until 2022 did he take one in the second round and has never taken one in the first. I'd have to go back and look at those drafts to see if there were any WRs worth taking higher in these years.
Watson was like a first with what we gave up.
 

Schultz

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
2,710
Reaction score
1,560
Your post here suggest you were among many who thought we wouldn't be struggling this year like we are. What made you believe this team as it is today was a playoff caliber (WC) team?
Exactly the opposite. I am on record not liking the 1st 3 picks of the 2020 draft even a little bit. I am also on record predicting a 7-10 season and that was due to what IMO was a soft schedule and before the injuries. The team has actually slightly overperformed my expectations.
 

El Guapo

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
6,145
Reaction score
1,606
Location
Land 'O Lakes
The youth on our team isn't about Gutekunst ignoring a position in the draft, or being negligent in some other area.

It has everything to do with Rodgers and the very talented players that emerged around him. Back a few years ago, we paid top money contracts to Rodgers, Bahktiari, Kenny Clark, and Jaire (I think that I'm missing a fifth player). Having four players at the top of the pay scale in their respective positions kills your salary cap down the road. Well here we are. Everybody wanted the team to "go for it." Well we did and it didn't work. That's life. Now we have to deal with a bloated salary cap which will start to ease starting next year.

The tired line of the Packers not drafting a WR in the first round is the biggest load of garbage, spouted by tv announcers and repeated by everyone for no reason. Rodgers had some of the best receivers during his time in Green Bay. Who cares what round they came from. It's more a badge of honor that they found elite receivers in the second round and lower.

The best that a team can hope for, is that you draft and develop players that are good to very good without hitting the top-of-the-pay-scale level. This allows you to have more good players instead of the disparity of great players coupled with average to below-average players. With the salary cap, you can't pay top dollar in so many positions and expect to win beyond the 1st or 2nd year of those massive contracts.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
5,691
Here's the thing....folks are just chalking Love in the fire bin and/or MLF and/or Barry and essentially Gute along with anyone that has an office space at Lambeau it seems. But do folks truly even realize just HOW YOUNG this team is. This isn't just a question of sheer age but of also even NFL game snaps.

BUT right now through 6 weeks in the NFL the following teams have the most NON-QB snaps taken by rookies:

Rams - 1,453 snaps in 6 games (242.17 snaps a game average)
Texans - 1,415 snaps in 6 games (235.83 snaps a game average)
Cardinals - 1,408 snaps in 6 games (234.66 snaps a game average)
Bears - 1340 snaps in 6 games (223.33 snaps a game average)
Packers - 1163 snaps in 5 games (232.6 snaps a game average)
Seahawks - 1135 snaps in 5 games (227 snaps a game average)
Patriots - 1031 snaps in 6 games (171.83 snaps a game average)
This is what I’ve been saying since Week 2. Looking at those young teams, the most comparable is Texans and Arizona because they both have 1st year starting QB’s (Stroud/Dobbs)
1. The Packers lead both green pea QB’s in points scored.
2. Stroud just played Saints and Atlanta and scored 20 and 19 respectively.
Jordan scored 18pts and 25pts

To some degree you could say these young NFL teams have all had some significant struggles. That’s not some condemnation on them but evidence how typical it is for young teams to struggle.
If we look at ONLY Offense and remove Bak? I’ve got a sneaking suspicion GB has the youngest OFFENSE. If I get a minute I’ll check
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
5,691
Across 11 players currently listed as starters OFFENSE only. Cumulative games played by that group and to back up what was so graciously listed by @tynimiller above
Offense TEAM combined games

LA Rams
692 games

Houston Texans
715 games

Arizona Cardinals
557 games

Chicago Bears
514 games

Green Bay Packers
308 games

Seattle Seahawks
529 games

New England Patriots
743 games

If these are the youngest or most inexperienced teams? How many games do the oldest Offenses have under their helmet? I’m near positive this Packers Offense is new on a “historical” level. I don’t have the time to crunch those other past years, but the disparity is glaring.

Nowhere to go but up.
and that’s “The Rest of the Story”
The Ghost of Paul Harvey :sick:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
5,691
To me this falls in the be careful what you wish for category. Now let me be clear, I fully realize that this was going to happen at some point, I am not naive. I just didn't feel it had to happen just yet. Other than the injuries, I have no sympathy for the other excuses including the youth of the team as they were all self inflicted IMO.
That part is absolutely true.

As you said, Rodgers was in the twilight of his career. 1 more year..
3 more years whatever. I don’t think either of us would argue differently. So we’d be looking at getting his replacement right now. Who do you take in this next 2024 draft for your franchise QB???
List him here ______________
Assuming we’re in that ##20-#26 overall area. Pick a #2024 draft QB
I’ll be sure to track his ups n downs starting the second he steps off the plane and then I’ll even comment on your alternative QB choice on a daily basis for you.
 
Last edited:

Scotland Yard

What the hell is going on around here!
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
173
Reaction score
46
You can call Packer fans spoiled and preach patience all you want, but...

I remember when HC Forrest Gregg gutted the roster of veterans and went young. He had taken the Bengals to the Super Bowl, so, some fans thought patience would pay off in the end with players and the team getting better in time. It didn't happen.

By the way, how many young players on offense has LaFleur molded into Pro Bowlers in his tenure? Any OT's, WR's, TE's, RB's, QB's?

Outside of OG Jenkins most of the young offensive players given to LaFleur have not panned out. That's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's a fact for five years now.

Pointing to youth is just making excuses for Murphy, LaFleur and Gute...which they are no doubt delighted you are doing for them so they can stay employed.
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
You can call Packer fans spoiled and preach patience all you want, but...

I remember when HC Forrest Gregg gutted the roster of veterans and went young. He had taken the Bengals to the Super Bowl, so, some fans thought patience would pay off in the end with players and the team getting better in time. It didn't happen.

By the way, how many young players on offense has LaFleur molded into Pro Bowlers in his tenure? Any OT's, WR's, TE's, RB's, QB's?

Outside of OG Jenkins most of the young offensive players given to LaFleur have not panned out. That's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's a fact for five years now.

Pointing to youth is just making excuses for Murphy, LaFleur and Gute...which they are no doubt delighted you are doing for them so they can stay employed.

LoL MLF has barely been here that long…but sure I’ll play the game. Check out Jones’ production during MLF time, easily one. Also check out Adams’ production pre and post MLF arriving.

It’s a massive turning to the guard in GB, if folks want to expect miracles go for it, each their own.

Pointing out the inexperience of a roster is not an excuse lol
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
By the way, how many young players on offense has LaFleur molded into Pro Bowlers in his tenure? Any OT's, WR's, TE's, RB's, QB's?

So this is a bit misleading as in MLF's time here in GB let's look at the young players drafted and brought in reflectively "should" have been something arguably:

Day 1 - this is where you elite types should come from or minimum perennial starters.
2019 - Gary and Savage
2020 - Love
2021 - Stokes
2022 - Walker and Wyatt
2023 - LVN

So Love is the only offensive addition in those years - and just like ANY draft pick that a logical person is grading or reviewing you want to see two years minimum from them - verdict still out on Love.

2nd Rounders - lower return expected but still hope to get starting level play:
2019 - Elgton Jenkins
2020 - AJ Dillon
2021 - Josh Myers
2022 - Christian Watson
2023 - Luke Musgrave & Jayden Reed

Honestly, Jenkins is an AP...
Dillon until this year has at MINIMUM provided mid-level NFL starting level production and at times has looked like an RB1...
Myers has provided sufficient starting center play, but most likely is not seeing a second contract or I should say IMO won't - to me he's given you more what you expect out of a 3rd rounder or so.
Watson, when healthy produces VERY VERY well relative to the league norms.
Musgrave is going through growing pains for sure and is too young to know...Reed has at times looked like a second year slot receiver for us.

So while I get people get all sad about us always going defense a lot on Day 1...I don't see this abysmal return some do either.
 
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
LoL MLF has barely been here that long…but sure I’ll play the game. Check out Jones’ production during MLF time, easily one. Also check out Adams’ production pre and post MLF arriving.

It’s a massive turning to the guard in GB, if folks want to expect miracles go for it, each their own.

Pointing out the inexperience of a roster is not an excuse lol

I also forgot...Rodgers resurrected to an Elite level in his offense and won two MVPs
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
5,691
Pointing to youth is just making excuses for Murphy, LaFleur and Gute...which they are no doubt delighted you are doing for them so they can stay employed.
Why do I sense an emotional reaction to growing pains here? :laugh:

Who honestly expects a bunch of rookies and 1st year starters to just come out peak form? We weren’t even peak form under a 16 year Veteran HOF QB and multiple Offensive weapons and multiple OL on 2nd or 3rd contracts (sorry Aaron not meant as a cheap shot) Why in the world would we expect playing with a QB with 6 starts and no OL, WR or TE outside of a Rookie deal is going to be anywhere close.

The true result of naming the “newness” of a team is not to make excuses but rather to temper early expectations. If we can get out of our emotional funk of being a dedicated fan and being humbled by several opponents? We will recognize our capacity to rise in total Offensive production.
We’re talking multiple players or positions groups that have the propensity to pop in relation to our opponents, who possess long tenured, veteran, Offensive starters. Yes our team will get better, but we have to account for our opponents getting better also. Yet our opponents above are not even in the same stratosphere of inexperience. So recognizing this gives us hope. Pointing out a factual display of how young a team should not be incorrectly interpreted as an insult or slight or even an excuse.
It’s a compliment.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
tynimiller

tynimiller

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
13,910
Reaction score
4,865
Why do I sense an emotional reaction to growing pains here? :laugh:

Who honestly expects a bunch of rookies and 1st year starters to just come out peak form? We weren’t even peak form under a 16 year Veteran HOF QB and multiple Offensive weapons and multiple OL on 2nd or 3rd contracts. Why in the world would we expect playing with a QB with 6 starts and no OL, WR or TE outside of a Rookie deal is going to be anywhere close.

The true result of naming the “newness” of a team is not to make excuses but rather to temper early expectations. If we can get out of our emotional funk of being a dedicated fan and being humbled by several opponents? We will recognize our capacity to rise in total Offensive production.
We’re talking multiple players or positions groups that have the propensity to pop in relation to our opponents, who possess long tenured, veteran, Offensive starters. Yes our team will get better, but we have to account for our opponents getting better also. Yet our opponents above are not even in the same stratosphere of inexperience. So recognizing this gives us hope. Pointing out a factual display of how young a team should not be incorrectly interpreted as an insult or slight. It’s a compliment.

I welcome a good A kicking because it humbled us. That produces perseverance. Perseverance produces discipline. Discipline produces hope of being a champion. Who cares about a couple of close losses, nobody will remember this. They’ll only remember how we responded to our adversity. I see a team that will respond led by a QB who won’t quit. One thing that Jordan isn’t.. is a quitter on himself

Is it bad being an Indiana native, I wouldn't be against our franchise fanbase cleansing itself like the Colts' did when Manning left and have had some rough patches.....gets rid of the rift raft LOL

I still remember going to a Colts vs Packers game and offering $20 to Colt fans around me if they could name a QB prior to Manning not named Unitas.....I gave out one $20 bill that day after about 12 were offered. A couple didn't even know who Unitas was.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
5,691
Is it bad being an Indiana native, I wouldn't be against our franchise fanbase cleansing itself like the Colts' did when Manning left and have had some rough patches.....gets rid of the rift raft LOL

I still remember going to a Colts vs Packers game and offering $20 to Colt fans around me if they could name a QB prior to Manning not named Unitas.....I gave out one $20 bill that day after about 12 were offered. A couple didn't even know who Unitas was.
That’s cool. Friends of ours on our Bible study (we do it gotoMeeting) live in Indianapolis. Matter of fact he just text me its raining right now.

I understand him/her being (Scotland) frustrated though. I get that I’m human and I get frustrated. I just choose not to let that frustration ruin the experience. I was frustrated the first half of our home opener. Now that game is the best game I’ve watched this year maybe next in Colorado vs Colorado st
 
Last edited:

Members online

Latest posts

Top