Fire Drayton

[easyk83]

I'm not saying that STs doesnt matter, but there's some bad company at the top of that list and some good company at the bottom. Id rather have a team like the Rams Buccs, Packers overall as opposed to perpetual NFC doormats like the Lions and Bears.

 

[easyk83]

I mean the Bears always have great special teams year in and year out, and their overall teams consistently suck.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not opposed, just pointing out that the team has been successful. Of course lets not forget the special teams F-up which could have sent the Packers to a Super Bowl versus Seattle.

Again, success can be measured in so many ways and to use it as a reason for not fixing what is an obvious problem, is short sided in my opinion. Every team, whether they have won 4 straight Super Bowls or lost every game for 4 straight seasons, tries to improve aspects that weren't so good. I seriously doubt that Slocum, Zook and Mennenga all get fired if the Packers were ok with crappy special teams play.

If special teams doesn't improve and ends up costing us a big game, MLF will have some explaining to do. I also acknowledge that firing Drayton and hiring a new ST coach with 4 games to go isn't ideal and may not improve anything and even has the chance to negatively impact things. However, I don't think at this point the ST could get much worse and if it was my decision, Drayton wouldn't have been coaching on Monday.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not saying that STs doesnt matter, but there's some bad company at the top of that list and some good company at the bottom. Id rather have a team like the Rams Buccs, Packers overall as opposed to perpetual NFC doormats like the Lions and Bears.

So you are saying that having a good special teams might make the rest of the team bad? See I don't understand that idea at all. I would say a team like the Lions having a good special teams is a product of having a decent coach, that has them playing well.

IF suddenly the Packers special teams plays really well, are you saying that the rest of the team will suffer?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

While Gute had turned over every rock to help the offense and defense overcome the avalanche of injuries. his inability to find a KR is contributing to the worst ST in the NFL. It has been obvious for a long time that Malik Turner and Amari Rodgers aren't getting the job done and need to be replaced ASAP. The Bears should've been blown out and the game was much closed because of the ST which can be credired for giving up between 13 and 20 points given the horrible srarting field position given to the Bears. In a closer game, especially come playoff time, ridiculous specual teams play will result in another wrecked season.

While I totally agree with you on Gute not doing enough in the way of putting some resources into a return guy(s), that still doesn't do anything to fix punt and kick coverage teams or the FG/XP team.

What is so surprising to me is that with all the injuries that the Packers have had, it is very obvious that they have terrific depth. With that depth, you would think that the talent on special teams would be pretty decent too, yet it isn't.

 

[pacmaniac]

I doubt it is money that is preventing them from hiring a better ST coach. I think MLF and the organization thought Drayton was the perfect coach to promote. Perhaps that seemed like a great idea to them, but so far, I would say they were wrong.

Money was the issue with Darren Rizzi a few years ago.

 

[OldSchool101]

No amount of speed is going to help if:

A. A player can't field a ball cleanly.

B. A player makes bad decisions as to when and how to field the ball.

C. You have crap for blocking around said player.

Seems like every week for the last 8 or so games, everyone is trying to explain what went wrong on special teams. "Was it this player or that player or multiple players?" Well, the wheels fell off in week 14 and now people are still trying to explain it with "we need a guy like this or a guy like that." Again, I just think they need a new coach. Not a guy that spent 3 seasons learning under 2 failed Special Teams coaches. Trying to decide where to start in capturing the utter incompetence of the Packers’ special teams unit is about as easy as getting either of the Cuomo brothers to admit they did anything wrong. When just about every phase of special teams fails, you need to go right to the source and that is the coach.

I just find it hard to believe that MLF isn't backing down and is willing to risk losing a playoff game due to a known problem, one that can't get much worse, even with a new coach.

These are just singular ideas being tossed around. No one claimed they have the ultimate fix by replacing 1 player. At least not the posts I scanned and certainly not me.

It’s no secret you can look to successful ST programs to find answers. Speed at the returner position is not a common denominator in just the Packers past return success, but that if the best returners to ever play the game. I remember years ago someone arguing that Desmond Howard was fast, but “too small” and would not translate. Correct me if I’m wrong about speed, but without raw speed he’s never SB MVP.

We can do nothing at all or we can discuss changes. I’d argue that nothing at all is by far a worse approach to a dismal group. MLF already said they weren’t making Drayton go away. Agree or disagree those were his words.

Player Personnel is going to have to change and that just a part of making improvements in the meantime. I’d personally have 5 separate fixes employed by tonight and working in 5 more in the morning. I’m 110% sure that what we saw on Sunday night isn’t working. The status quo needs a good firm shaking. There’s an age old saying. Small leaks sink big ships. Well this ship has been taking on water now for many weeks.

Now we can all sit here and throw around Long term changes and I wouldn’t argue it’s not needed down the road. However, those theories do not stop this ship from sinking any better than immediate player personnel changes. I want to hear what we changed already earlier this morning, not next season

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Money was the issue with Darren Rizzi a few years ago.

Thanks and I change my statement to:

"It shouldn't be money that is preventing them from hiring a better ST coach."

I found this article on Rizzi and why he wasn't hired (Packers low-balled him). After reading it, maybe there is more to the story than MLF being responsible for the Drayton hire.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...t-have-full-say-on-hiring-packers-assistants/

 

[OldSchool101]

Thanks and I change my statement to:

"It shouldn't be money that is preventing them from hiring a better ST coach."

I found this article on Rizzi and why he wasn't hired (Packers low-balled him). After reading it, maybe there is more to the story than MLF being responsible for the Drayton hire.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...t-have-full-say-on-hiring-packers-assistants/

Might explain his “I’m not making a change concerning Drayton” (not verbatim) statement.
It’s possible it’s not his sole decision to make

 

[Poppa San]

Small leaks sink big ships.

Just drill a hole in the bottom larger than the leak so the water has a chance to run back out.

 

[Firethorn1001]

Disagree. Only the crazy knee jerk fans behave that way. There are too many of those without a doubt in my mind.

Agree. I worded it poorly. If every coach were fired at the whims of fire happy fans, you'd have announcers going "And, coming out of halftime, Joe Barry has been announced as the 2,644th head coach of the Packers as Matt LaFleur has been relieved after calling a run play on 4th and 1 midway through the 2nd quarter...."

 

[lambeaulambo]

What does Drayton have to do? Take one of the Lambardi's out of the case and drag it behind his car in the parking lot?

 

[AmishMafia]

What does Drayton have to do? Take one of the Lambardi's out of the case and drag it behind his car in the parking lot?

Castanza!

 

[ARPackFan]

Money was the issue with Darren Rizzi a few years ago.

You get what you pay for. If Rizzi was low balled then the fault lies with whoever made that decision. It would be a shame if the Packers miss going to a SB because special teams ScRews the pooch again like 2014 NFCC.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Maybe the Packers can take some of the money from this year's stock offering and use it to hire a better ST coach.

The Packers aren't allowed to use money being earned from the stock sale on anything else than projects that directly affect the fans.

I'm not saying that STs doesnt matter, but there's some bad company at the top of that list and some good company at the bottom. Id rather have a team like the Rams Buccs, Packers overall as opposed to perpetual NFC doormats like the Lions and Bears.

According to Football Outsiders' DVOA the Packers rank dead last in total special teams performance as well as FG/XP, kickoff and punt returns. While they don't need to be one of the top teams to be successful moving forward that should be unacceptable.

 

[Poppa San]

The Packers aren't allowed to use money being earned from the stock sale on anything else than projects that directly affect the fans.

My enjoyment of watching them win the SB far exceeds any skating rink or business park they develop.

 

[AmishMafia]

The possibilities are these:

1. Drayton is an inferior coach. Everything I hear, Drayton sounds like a great coach. He is energetic, motivational, and detail oriented. I'm not sure why STs suck, but it may not be entirely his fault.

2. Other teams have players higher on the roster running special teams. Not sure. Would be interesting to know if other teams put their fringe starters on ST and Pack uses all fringe roster guys.

3. Gute needs to keep some/more ST guys on the roster. Maybe 2 players who are backup OLBs or Safeties who excell as gunners on ST.

4. MLF does not devote enough practice time to STs. Again it would be interesting to know how much other teams devote to practice compared to the Packers.

5. Team culture. The stature of a ST players isn't highly regarded and they don't seem to be focused as they should. I wouldn't think this was an issue, but I heard Packer veterans were calling out ST players for not focusing on their role.


I didn't place thes in order. I think #3, #4, and #5 in that order. #5 is the easiest fix and I believe from what I heard, that it shouldn't be an issue going forward.

One thing I know is that Drayton is highly respected by the players. Hearing the uproar of his job on the line will also make an impact.

I actually wouldn't fire Drayton. Let's see what happens in the next few games. I think we can get it fixed.

 

[Dantés]

The possibilities are these:

1. Drayton is an inferior coach. Everything I hear, Drayton sounds like a great coach. He is energetic, motivational, and detail oriented. I'm not sure why STs suck, but it may not be entirely his fault.

2. Other teams have players higher on the roster running special teams. Not sure. Would be interesting to know if other teams put their fringe starters on ST and Pack uses all fringe roster guys.

3. Gute needs to keep some/more ST guys on the roster. Maybe 2 players who are backup OLBs or Safeties who excell as gunners on ST.

4. MLF does not devote enough practice time to STs. Again it would be interesting to know how much other teams devote to practice compared to the Packers.

5. Team culture. The stature of a ST players isn't highly regarded and they don't seem to be focused as they should. I wouldn't think this was an issue, but I heard Packer veterans were calling out ST players for not focusing on their role.


I didn't place thes in order. I think #3, #4, and #5 in that order. #5 is the easiest fix and I believe from what I heard, that it shouldn't be an issue going forward.

One thing I know is that Drayton is highly respected by the players. Hearing the uproar of his job on the line will also make an impact.

I actually wouldn't fire Drayton. Let's see what happens in the next few games. I think we can get it fixed.

I'm just interacting with these. This isn't a "here's all the reasons you're wrong" thing.

1. I hear positive things about Drayton too, but what does that actually mean? Ultimately, it's a results business. To me, the problems are so widespread (the kicking game, the kick/punt coverage game, the punt return game, even handling an onside kick), that it must have a lot to do with him. You can point to individual player errors in all of those instances, but the collective of them points to the coach.

2. The top 5 teams in the league in Special Teams DVOA are, in order, the Ravens, Chiefs, Bears, Patriots, and Seahawks. If you go check out the snap counts for those teams, what you will find is that they are not playing starters much on special teams. What you do see that they have in common, though, is excellent coaches. Belichick is one of the greatest coaches of all time and his teams routinely have great special teams units. Harbaugh was a ST Coordinator before becoming Baltimore's head coach. Dave Toub is such a good STC that he gets head coaching looks. Chris Tabor is a long time veteran ST coach. And the Seahawks Larry Izzo is the shortest tenured guy and even he has 10 years of experience.

3. This is possible. Summers and Burks were both retained as almost exclusively ST guys. So it's not like there's no investment in the personnel, but you do hear that the pro personnel guys are scouring the league for practice squad guys who can help here.

4. No idea.

5. I think to whatever degree this is true, it goes back to #1.

 

[Mondio]

The 2 prior posts to mine are what I struggle with every time I try thinking about special teams and what is wrong.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I actually wouldn't fire Drayton. Let's see what happens in the next few games. I think we can get it fixed.

In my opinion Drayton has had enough time to fix things on special teams but instead the unit hit rock bottom against the Bears in week 14 of the season coming off a bye. It's time to move on.

 

[AmishMafia]

In my opinion Drayton has had enough time to fix things on special teams but instead the unit hit rock bottom against the Bears in week 14 of the season coming off a bye. It's time to move on.

But what if that isn't the problem?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But what if that isn't the problem?

Then you fire everyone on special teams....oh wait.

I am open to thinking that the problem goes beyond Drayton, but when you look at and add up all the blunders that the special teams has had this season, it would seem that something is wrong at the top. Add in the fact that this team is 10-3 and has shown great depth in the process, Drayton isn't dealing with a bunch of has-beens.

 

[AmishMafia]

Then you fire everyone on special teams....oh wait.

I am open to thinking that the problem goes beyond Drayton, but when you look at and add up all the blunders that the special teams has had this season, it would seem that something is wrong at the top. Add in the fact that this team is 10-3 and has shown great depth in the process, Drayton isn't dealing with a bunch of has-beens.

Probably. Just tiresome when you try and get a discussion going and people just repost their opinion for the 7th time. No rebuttals to points. No thought provoking new angles. Just ignore any other possibility and restate my opinion.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Probably. Just tiresome when you try and get a discussion going and people just repost their opinion for the 7th time. No rebuttals to points. No thought provoking new angles. Just ignore any other possibility and restate my opinion.

I should have also added, Drayton was a special teams assistant under both Mennenga and Zook. That alone should give someone pause.

On the positive side, looks like MLF has given Drayton the rest of the season to prove his ability to coach, I just hope it works out and doesn't cost us a playoff game. Would love to see Drayton coaching the Packers next year, if it means we have solid special teams.

I will end it with a silver lining....The good news....Packers special teams should be safe from COVID since they were no where near anyone on Sunday.

 

[Dantés]

Probably. Just tiresome when you try and get a discussion going and people just repost their opinion for the 7th time. No rebuttals to points. No thought provoking new angles. Just ignore any other possibility and restate my opinion.

I gave you some feedback! Tag me back.